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MoreCoffee

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Here is a totally off-topic offering from Holy Orthodox Russia, with Love...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3iYnHx8P0s

It is for those of us who find slowing down problematic...

Arsenios

By processes all too familiar this thread is veering away from a discussion about Salvation ...

I do like the prayer, but prefer it in English because I can understand English :)
 

popsthebuilder

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Indeed it does - Martyrdom = Witnessing...

But this passage does not ONLY mean unto the shedding of one's own blood, although that is included I suppose...

What it says is that in one's RESISTENCE to SIN one must do so unto "unto blood"...

Your example shows only one's resistence to other people's sins at the expense of one's own life...

But it really is about YOUR resistence unto your OWN sin unto blood...

And that means laying down the gauntlet that the Marines laid down in their assault on Tarawa...

It is the inner resistence to one's own sin at whatever the cost might be...

Even if the cost of discipleship, which IS the striving against sin, is one's own life...

Heb 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.



That is not the test...



No, it does not... It is the COST of Discipleship in the Body of Christ...



I am beginning to think that YOU are the self-flagellator, Menno...

However, for the sake of the off-chance that you MIGHT NOT be merely taunting me...
That you MIGHT actually BELIEVE your own vomit here...
That you think I MIGHT BE what YOUR OBSESSION with self-flagellation accuses...

The answer is no...

But IF SOMEHOW...
IT became apparent that doing so was indicated in my striving against my own sin...
I would do so without hesitation...

Would you???

Or would you keep your sin instead...??

fwiw, self flagellation is a peculiar obsession with certain later medieval western monastics...

It is not a part of Eastern Monasticism...

I would hope that you and I can join in our not having that aberration as a passion...

God bless ya Bro!

Arsenios
Hebrews 12: 2. simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader in the faith, who will also award us the prize. He, for the sake of the joy which lay before Him, patiently endured the cross, looking with contempt upon its shame, and afterwards seated Himself-- where He still sits--at the right hand of the throne of God. 3. Therefore, if you would escape becoming weary and faint-hearted, compare your own sufferings with those of Him who endured such hostility directed against Him by sinners. 4. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted so as to endanger your lives; 5. and you have quite forgotten the encouraging words which are addressed to you as sons, and which say, <"My son, do not think lightly of the Lord's discipline, and do not faint when He corrects you; 6. for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines: and He scourges every son whom He acknowledges."> 7. The sufferings that you are enduring are for your discipline. God is dealing with you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8. And if you are left without discipline, of which every true son has had a share, that shows that you are bastards, and not true sons.


(It is very obvious from scripture that one will not be indifferent to sin if a believer.)
Matthew 21: 20. When the disciples saw it they exclaimed in astonishment, "How instantaneously the fig-tree has withered away!" 21. "I solemnly tell you," said Jesus, "that if you have an unwavering faith, you shall not only perform such a miracle as this of the fig-tree, but that even if you say to this mountain, `Be thou lifted up and hurled into the sea,' it shall be done; 22. and everything, whatever it be, that you ask for in your prayers, if you have faith, you shall obtain." 31. Which of the two did as his father desired?" "The first," they said. "I solemnly tell you,' replied Jesus, "that the tax-gatherers and the notorious sinners are entering the Kingdom of God in front of you. 32. For John came to you observing all sorts of ritual, and you put no faith in him: the tax-gatherers and the notorious sinners did put faith in him, and you, though you saw this example set you, were not even afterwards sorry so as to believe him. 42. "Have you never read in the Scriptures," said Jesus, <"`The Stone which the builders rejected has been made the Cornerstone: this Cornerstone came from the Lord, and is wonderful in our eyes'?> 43. "That, I tell you, is the reason why the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that will exhibit the power of it. 44. He who falls on this stone will be severely hurt; but he on whom it falls will be utterly crushed."




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Arsenios

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I do like the prayer...
But prefer it in English...
Because I can understand English :)

I love the music...
And the landscapes of the language...
Because I KNOW the prayer...

However, it does bring us back to Salvation, because IF Salvation IS Life Eternal, THEN what is the LANGUAGE of the Life of the Age to Come? Where our self-authority to turn to evil, or to turn to God, is no longer a feature of the Holy Landscapes of that Life... iow Where we are no longer able to do evil, or to speak evil, or to think evil, at all? Where we move and act eternally in the holy Power of God through what is real before us...?

Will that language be KJV English? Or Greek? Or Aramaic?

What is the Language of Salvation?

In both the Old Testament and the New, we find that the Language of Salvation is silence...
Silence is the Language of Power of Love...

What beautiful music does for us in worship services is to help elevate us above the words of worship themselves... And in doing so, softens the heart of our souls that we should 'hear' the still, small voice of the God Who Loves us... That we might perchance bestill our souls, and in this stillness perhaps KNOW God...

This holy music is not to teach us the words... It is not some sugar coating for the bitterness of the important medicine which the words are... Rather, the music is given to take us beyond the words which we, in the hardness of our unpurified hearts, are unable to elevate with the softening which of the moisture of our tears of weeping when we pray provides... Music is a substitute, you see, for the tears which an unrepentant soul does not generate... And without which we have no Salvation...

Deep repentance, you see, is uncontrolled tears - A heart that is utterly broken - And is a most blessed Gift of God which He sometimes gives to those living repentant lives in obedience to God... My patron Saint, Arsenius the Great, Educator of Kings, was born and educated in Rome, came to Constantinople to educate the Emperor's two sons, and then fled to the Egyptian Desert, the Sketis, to be educated himself by an illiterate hunchback named John the Dwarf... And he was given the Gift of Tears which never left him, washing away his lower eyelids after 40 plus years of constant weeping...

"A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..."

There are dimensions upon dimensions contained in the Holy Words of the Holy Book...

Have a blessed July 4th...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Hebrews 12: 2. simply fixing our gaze upon Jesus, our Prince Leader in the faith, who will also award us the prize. He, for the sake of the joy which lay before Him, patiently endured the cross, looking with contempt upon its shame, and afterwards seated Himself-- where He still sits--at the right hand of the throne of God. 3. Therefore, if you would escape becoming weary and faint-hearted, compare your own sufferings with those of Him who endured such hostility directed against Him by sinners. 4. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted so as to endanger your lives; 5. and you have quite forgotten the encouraging words which are addressed to you as sons, and which say, <"My son, do not think lightly of the Lord's discipline, and do not faint when He corrects you; 6. for those whom the Lord loves He disciplines: and He scourges every son whom He acknowledges."> 7. The sufferings that you are enduring are for your discipline. God is dealing with you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8. And if you are left without discipline, of which every true son has had a share, that shows that you are bastards, and not true sons.


(It is very obvious from scripture that one will not be indifferent to sin if a believer.)
Matthew 21: 20. When the disciples saw it they exclaimed in astonishment, "How instantaneously the fig-tree has withered away!" 21. "I solemnly tell you," said Jesus, "that if you have an unwavering faith, you shall not only perform such a miracle as this of the fig-tree, but that even if you say to this mountain, `Be thou lifted up and hurled into the sea,' it shall be done; 22. and everything, whatever it be, that you ask for in your prayers, if you have faith, you shall obtain." 31. Which of the two did as his father desired?" "The first," they said. "I solemnly tell you,' replied Jesus, "that the tax-gatherers and the notorious sinners are entering the Kingdom of God in front of you. 32. For John came to you observing all sorts of ritual, and you put no faith in him: the tax-gatherers and the notorious sinners did put faith in him, and you, though you saw this example set you, were not even afterwards sorry so as to believe him. 42. "Have you never read in the Scriptures," said Jesus, <"`The Stone which the builders rejected has been made the Cornerstone: this Cornerstone came from the Lord, and is wonderful in our eyes'?> 43. "That, I tell you, is the reason why the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you, and given to a nation that will exhibit the power of it. 44. He who falls on this stone will be severely hurt; but he on whom it falls will be utterly crushed."

Thank-you - You are right...

The COST of Discipleship is resistance to sin unto blood...
And if as a disciple one does not do so...
The Father will discipline that one as His Son...

Discipleship entails disciplining...

The discipline of the Father...
Is for the sake of...
The self-discipline of the son...

And the Cross was not ascended by our Lord for the sake of His Own discipline...
Because He knew no sin...
But it was for the sake of Adam's Transgression...
That He should take up Adam from where he fell...
And bring Salvation to the fallen race of Adam...
And to Adam himself...

"For God so loved the World (Kosmos)..."

The Salvation of Man is for the sake of the Kosmos...

Of which man is in part a part...

Yet created in the Image of God...

Arsenios
 

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I love the music...
And the landscapes of the language...
Because I KNOW the prayer...

However, it does bring us back to Salvation, because IF Salvation IS Life Eternal, THEN what is the LANGUAGE of the Life of the Age to Come? Where our self-authority to turn to evil, or to turn to God, is no longer a feature of the Holy Landscapes of that Life... iow Where we are no longer able to do evil, or to speak evil, or to think evil, at all? Where we move and act eternally in the holy Power of God through what is real before us...?

Will that language be KJV English? Or Greek? Or Aramaic?

What is the Language of Salvation?

In both the Old Testament and the New, we find that the Language of Salvation is silence...
Silence is the Language of Power of Love...

What beautiful music does for us in worship services is to help elevate us above the words of worship themselves... And in doing so, softens the heart of our souls that we should 'hear' the still, small voice of the God Who Loves us... That we might perchance bestill our souls, and in this stillness perhaps KNOW God...

This holy music is not to teach us the words... It is not some sugar coating for the bitterness of the important medicine which the words are... Rather, the music is given to take us beyond the words which we, in the hardness of our unpurified hearts, are unable to elevate with the softening which of the moisture of our tears of weeping when we pray provides... Music is a substitute, you see, for the tears which an unrepentant soul does not generate... And without which we have no Salvation...

Deep repentance, you see, is uncontrolled tears - A heart that is utterly broken - And is a most blessed Gift of God which He sometimes gives to those living repentant lives in obedience to God... My patron Saint, Arsenius the Great, Educator of Kings, was born and educated in Rome, came to Constantinople to educate the Emperor's two sons, and then fled to the Egyptian Desert, the Sketis, to be educated himself by an illiterate hunchback named John the Dwarf... And he was given the Gift of Tears which never left him, washing away his lower eyelids after 40 plus years of constant weeping...

"A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..."

There are dimensions upon dimensions contained in the Holy Words of the Holy Book...

Have a blessed July 4th...

Arsenios
Such length to teach salvation by works...
Salvation = God reaches down and plucks us out of our hopeless and helpless situation.
It's all God.
 

Arsenios

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Such length to teach salvation by works...

Some day you will learn the difference between BY works and THROUGH works...

For the Faith through which Salvation comes is the Faith that does works...

It is the Faith that is perfected IN works...

Faith is inseparable from the works of the Faith...

This is where Rome got a little off track, thinking our works bequeath merit...

It is God Who bequeaths merit...

It is God Who Glorifies...

From Glory to Glory...

Through Faithful works...

But NOT BY the works...

Yet THROUGH the Working Faith...

Salvation = God reaches down and plucks us out of our hopeless and helpless situation.

That He indeed does...

And if you want to know IF you have a saving Faith, look at your works...

If one is all mouth and no deeds, you do not have a faith through which you will be saved...

For we are saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith...

I can provide you a list of them from Paul...

It's all God.

Indeed it is...
Both now and ever...
And unto the Ages of Ages...
Amen!

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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Such length to teach salvation by works...

Some day you will learn the difference between BY works and THROUGH works...

For the Faith through which Salvation comes is the Faith that does works...

It is the Faith that is perfected IN works...

Faith is inseparable from the works of the Faith...

This is where Rome got a little off track, thinking our works bequeath merit...

Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

III. Merit

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.[SUP]59[/SUP]​

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."[SUP]60[/SUP] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.[SUP]61[/SUP] "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts."[SUP]62[/SUP]

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. the saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone.... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.[SUP]63[/SUP]​

59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio
celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor
of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.
60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.
63 St. Therese of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John
Clarke (Washington Dc: ICS, 1981), 277.
It is God Who bequeaths merit...

It is God Who Glorifies...

From Glory to Glory...

Through Faithful works...

But NOT BY the works...

Yet THROUGH the Working Faith...



That He indeed does...

And if you want to know IF you have a saving Faith, look at your works...

If one is all mouth and no deeds, you do not have a faith through which you will be saved...

For we are saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith...

I can provide you a list of them from Paul...



Indeed it is...
Both now and ever...
And unto the Ages of Ages...
Amen!

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Such length to teach salvation by works...
Some day you will learn the difference between BY works and THROUGH works...

For the Faith through which Salvation comes is the Faith that does works...

It is the Faith that is perfected IN works...

Faith is inseparable from the works of the Faith...

This is where Rome got a little off track, thinking our works bequeath merit...

It is God Who bequeaths merit...

It is God Who Glorifies...

From Glory to Glory...

Through Faithful works...

But NOT BY the works...

Yet THROUGH the Working Faith...



That He indeed does...

And if you want to know IF you have a saving Faith, look at your works...

If one is all mouth and no deeds, you do not have a faith through which you will be saved...

For we are saved BY Grace THROUGH Faith...

I can provide you a list of them from Paul...



Indeed it is...
Both now and ever...
And unto the Ages of Ages...
Amen!

Arsenios
It's not "will be" (future tense) saved, Arsenios. It is "have been" (past tense) saved.
Because you have been saved, you will have faith and you will see this gift of faith working in and through you.
"There is...NOW...no condemnation for those who...ARE...in Christ Jesus."
All God...all the time.
 

Albion

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III. Merit

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.[SUP]59[/SUP]​

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."[SUP]60[/SUP] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.[SUP]61[/SUP] "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts."[SUP]62[/SUP]

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. the saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone.... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.[SUP]63[/SUP]​

59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio
celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor
of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.
60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.
63 St. Therese of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John
Clarke (Washington Dc: ICS, 1981), 277.

We already understood that some denominations believe in works righteousness. We are well beyond that point in these discussions on salvation.
 

MennoSota

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Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

III. Merit

You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.[SUP]59[/SUP]​

2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. the fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."[SUP]60[/SUP] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.[SUP]61[/SUP] "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts."[SUP]62[/SUP]

2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. the saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone.... In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.[SUP]63[/SUP]​

59 Roman Missal, Prefatio I de sanctis; Qui in Sanctorum concilio
celebraris, et eorum coronando merita tua dona coronas, citing the "Doctor
of grace," St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 102, 7: PL 37, 1321-1322.
60 Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.
61 Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.
62 St. Augustine, Sermo 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.
63 St. Therese of Lisieux, "Act of Offering" in Story of a Soul, tr. John
Clarke (Washington Dc: ICS, 1981), 277.

LOL, attempting a cut and paste of a commentary...
I dare you to use your own words and scripture, MC.
 

Arsenios

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LOL, attempting a cut and paste of a commentary...
I dare you to use your own words and scripture, MC.

Where is your heart, Menno?

Because your words are heartless...

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Where is your heart, Menno?

Because your words are heartless...

Arsenios
Again...just left of center.
I am not the one copying and pasting without abandon.
At least you attempt to speak your own mind even if it is missing some basic facts.
 

MoreCoffee

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LOL, attempting a cut and paste

The cut & paste worked very well, no attempt, it is a success. :smirk:

of a commentary...

It's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Which is - I suppose - a commentary on the holy scriptures and holy Tradition.

I dare you to use your own words and scripture, MC.

Why, I've never seen you respond to holy scripture with any sort of serious attempt to explain why your theology is consistent with it. Quoting holy scripture a person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), so merit - if you want to think of it as works - is right there in Christ's teaching about justification. And remember what's written in Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dearest friends, as you always obeyed me while I was with you, even more, now, that I am far from you, continue working out your salvation “with fear and trembling.” 13 It is God who makes you, not only wish but also, carry out what pleases him. 14 Do everything without grumbling, 15 so, that, without fault or blame, you will be children of God, without reproach, among a crooked and perverse generation. You are a light among them, like stars in the universe, 16 holding to the word of life. I shall feel proud of you, on the day of Christ, on seeing that my effort and labour have not been in vain. 17 And if I am being poured out, as a libation over the sacrifice, and the offering of your faith, I rejoice and continue to share your joy; 18 and, you, likewise should rejoice and share my joy.
 

MennoSota

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The cut & paste worked very well, no attempt, it is a success. :smirk:



It's from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Which is - I suppose - a commentary on the holy scriptures and holy Tradition.



Why, I've never seen you respond to holy scripture with any sort of serious attempt to explain why your theology is consistent with it. Quoting holy scripture a person is justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24), so merit - if you want to think of it as works - is right there in Christ's teaching about justification. And remember what's written in Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my dearest friends, as you always obeyed me while I was with you, even more, now, that I am far from you, continue working out your salvation “with fear and trembling.” 13 It is God who makes you, not only wish but also, carry out what pleases him. 14 Do everything without grumbling, 15 so, that, without fault or blame, you will be children of God, without reproach, among a crooked and perverse generation. You are a light among them, like stars in the universe, 16 holding to the word of life. I shall feel proud of you, on the day of Christ, on seeing that my effort and labour have not been in vain. 17 And if I am being poured out, as a libation over the sacrifice, and the offering of your faith, I rejoice and continue to share your joy; 18 and, you, likewise should rejoice and share my joy.

I absolutely respond in seriousness to scripture. I often seriously disagree with your interpretation of scripture because it often neglects the context of the book and passage from which you quote.
For example your emphasis in Philippians 2 seems to miss the fact that Paul is acknowledging the Philippians ARE saved! Since they ARE saved, then work out what that means with fear and trembling. Why fear and trembling? Because we are NOW children of the Sovereign King. We ain't standing before an order taker at McDonald's.
God is working in us and sanctifying us. God is desiring us to represent His family name well. God will discipline His children when His name is being smeared.
So...enjoy the fact of being chosen and in Christ, yet glorify the name of God, who is your Father. Know that your Sovereign Father expects you to wear His name well.
That's Philippians 2 in a nutshell, MC.
Live with absolute assurance and joy my man!!! Paul did. He said the Philippians could. We can do so as well!!!
 

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I absolutely respond in seriousness to scripture.

Then would you please explain the difference between God's Call to Salvation, His Justification after that Call, and His Glorification after His Justification, following the account of the Apostle Paul in Romans, and especially Rom 8:30 as you understand it?

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


How does the Call lead to Justification which leads to Glorification?

Why is Justification after the Call and prior to Glorification?

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Then would you please explain the difference between God's Call to Salvation, His Justification after that Call, and His Glorification after His Justification, following the account of the Apostle Paul in Romans, and especially Rom 8:30 as you understand it?

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
and whom he called, them he also justified:
and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


How does the Call lead to Justification which leads to Glorification?

Why is Justification after the Call and prior to Glorification?

Arsenios
Simple.
God does it. We don't.
Rest.
 

RichWh1

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And the sequencing?

Arsenios

The sequencing is important because we cannot be justified until we are called and cannot be glorified until justified.




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MoreCoffee

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The sequencing is important because we cannot be justified until we are called and cannot be glorified until justified.

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That does appear to be what saint Paul is telling the Romans. First comes God's call, next comes Justification which saint James explains means works and not faith alone, after Justification comes glorification. Seems that no one is saved completely until the whole call-justification-glorification process is done. A person can say "I am saved" in this life and mean it but that person is not asserting that he/she is called-justified-glorified until the time for glorification arrives.
 
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