Salvation

[MennoSota]

How do you understand that text?


Heb 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

Do you believe the Gospel teaching regarding martyrdom?

Interpret the text, Menno...

If you can...


Arsenios


Hint: Blood = Life

I know that history shows many of the elect have been killed for the faith. You're still here, which means you don't fit the bill for Hebrews 12.
Blood equal red and white blood cells leaking out of the body.
Do you regularly flagellate yourself, Arsenios?

 

[MennoSota]

Where is your heart, Menno?

Arsenios

Just slightly left of center. Where's yours?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you mean, have pagans attempted to kill me and beat me up because of the gospel? Thankfully not yet.
Who tried to kill you, Arsenios? Or are you completely butchering the verse so that you can flagellate yourself and hopefully make God happy with your mutilation of the flesh?
You know...the prophets of Baal mutilated themselves as well...

Please, restrain yourself. Many people read these posts and this kind of post is harmful to the reputation of Christianity Haven as well as to your own reputation. Take some time before clicking that Submit Reply button.

 

[MennoSota]

Please, restrain yourself. Many people read these posts and this kind of post is harmful to the reputation of Christianity Haven as well as to your own reputation. Take some time before clicking that Submit Reply button.

I'm addressing the question of Hebrews 12:4 and Arsenios apparent flagellation practices. Do you follow a similar practice, MC? These are practices know to the RC and the EO...are they not?

 

[Lamb]

I'm addressing the question of Hebrews 12:4 and Arsenios apparent flagellation practices. Do you follow a similar practice, MC? These are practices know to the RC and the EO...are they not?

I, too, have read a post of Arsenios' and thought he was referring to self-flagellation. I should have starred it so I could return to it.

 

[MennoSota]

Oh yes, after many years of profound repentance unto blood...

Heb 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

How 'bout you?

Arsenios

I, too, have read a post of Arsenios' and thought he was referring to self-flagellation. I should have starred it so I could return to it.

This is the post that brought on questions of flagellation.
Either it's flagellation or Arsenios has been persecuted and beaten by pagans until he bled. From Arsenios first reply it seems like flagellation. Arsenios has not denied it.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Then please reply to my post 185.
If Paul and James wrote the same thing please explain why they disagree.



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Works is a byproduct of faith which is given by GOD to at very least, those who desire to repent of known evil/ wrong in their own lives, and who call on GOD in sincerity.

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[Arsenios]

I know that history shows many of the elect have been killed for the faith.

Indeed it does - Martyrdom = Witnessing...

But this passage does not ONLY mean unto the shedding of one's own blood, although that is included I suppose...

What it says is that in one's RESISTENCE to SIN one must do so unto "unto blood"...

Your example shows only one's resistence to other people's sins at the expense of one's own life...

But it really is about YOUR resistence unto your OWN sin unto blood...

And that means laying down the gauntlet that the Marines laid down in their assault on Tarawa...

It is the inner resistence to one's own sin at whatever the cost might be...

Even if the cost of discipleship, which IS the striving against sin, is one's own life...

Heb 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

You're still here, which means you don't fit the bill for Hebrews 12.

That is not the test...

Blood equals red and white blood cells leaking out of the body.

No, it does not... It is the COST of Discipleship in the Body of Christ...

Do you regularly flagellate yourself, Arsenios?

I am beginning to think that YOU are the self-flagellator, Menno...

However, for the sake of the off-chance that you MIGHT NOT be merely taunting me...
That you MIGHT actually BELIEVE your own vomit here...
That you think I MIGHT BE what YOUR OBSESSION with self-flagellation accuses...

The answer is no...

But IF SOMEHOW...
IT became apparent that doing so was indicated in my striving against my own sin...
I would do so without hesitation...

Would you???

Or would you keep your sin instead...??

fwiw, self flagellation is a peculiar obsession with certain later medieval western monastics...

It is not a part of Eastern Monasticism...

I would hope that you and I can join in our not having that aberration as a passion...

God bless ya Bro!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Just slightly left of center. Where's yours?

Well, if left is right, then right is wrong!

My heart is in love with God and His Creation...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm addressing the question of Hebrews 12:4 and Arsenios apparent flagellation practices. Do you follow a similar practice, MC? These are practices know to the RC and the EO...are they not?

Speaking only for the Orthodox, they are not...

We are FAR more draconian in our resistant striving against sin than mere daliances in self flagellation!

Self-flagellation is for SISSIES!!!

REAL MEN do not behave like SISSIES!!

Jes' Sayin'...

This is too funny!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I, too, have read a post of Arsenios' and thought he was referring to self-flagellation. I should have starred it so I could return to it.

Well, hopefully I have put your concerns to rest...

You concerns come out of a misdirected practice found in some lines of western monasticism...
Heretical, actually, because it regards the flesh as inheritantly evil and punishes it...
We are to submit our flesh to our self in submission to God...
That requires the discipling of the Church...
Obedience to God...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Indeed it does - Martyrdom = Witnessing...

But this passage does not ONLY mean unto the shedding of one's own blood, although that is included I suppose...

What it says is that in one's RESISTENCE to SIN one must do so unto "unto blood"...

Your example shows only one's resistence to other people's sins at the expense of one's own life...

But it really is about YOUR resistence unto your OWN sin unto blood...

And that means laying down the gauntlet that the Marines laid down in their assault on Tarawa...

It is the inner resistence to one's own sin at whatever the cost might be...

Even if the cost of discipleship, which IS the striving against sin, is one's own life...

Heb 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.



That is not the test...



No, it does not... It is the COST of Discipleship in the Body of Christ...



I am beginning to think that YOU are the self-flagellator, Menno...

However, for the sake of the off-chance that you MIGHT NOT be merely taunting me...
That you MIGHT actually BELIEVE your own vomit here...
That you think I MIGHT BE what YOUR OBSESSION with self-flagellation accuses...

The answer is no...

But IF SOMEHOW...
IT became apparent that doing so was indicated in my striving against my own sin...
I would do so without hesitation...

Would you???

Or would you keep your sin instead...??

fwiw, self flagellation is a peculiar obsession with certain later medieval western monastics...

It is not a part of Eastern Monasticism...

I would hope that you and I can join in our not having that aberration as a passion...

God bless ya Bro!

Arsenios

Nope.
Verses 1-3 lead us from Chapter 11 to verse 4. Note that in verse 2 Jesus is the founder and perfecter of our faith. There is no need to be abusing ourselves.
Verse 3 has us look at Jesus who was beaten and persecuted by men so that we won't get discouraged when/if the non-elect abuse and beat us for our faith.
Verse 5 then explains that God works to sanctify us (set us apart) as his adopted children, not as those who are illegitimate.
No need for self-punishment and flagellation, Arsenios. Just live joyfully in the fullness of your position as an adopted child of the King of Kings. What fun!!!

 

[Arsenios]

This is the post that brought on questions of flagellation.
Either it's flagellation or Arsenios has been persecuted and beaten by pagans until he bled. From Arsenios first reply it seems like flagellation. Arsenios has not denied it.

I thought that this might be your cunning in this matter...

1: Make an outrageous accusation...
2: Repeat the accusation...
3: Convict by lack of denial...

Have you considered a career at MSNBC??

So now you have an opportunity to retract your accusation...
Because I HAVE denied it...

Do you have the STONES to do the retraction?
Or are you a bigger sissie than the self-flagellators??

This just gets better and better!

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

This is the post that brought on questions of flagellation.
Either it's flagellation or Arsenios has been persecuted and beaten by pagans until he bled. From Arsenios first reply it seems like flagellation. Arsenios has not denied it.

That wasn't the post I had in mind.

 

[Lamb]

fwiw, self flagellation is a peculiar obsession with certain later medieval western monastics...

It is not a part of Eastern Monasticism...

I would hope that you and I can join in our not having that aberration as a passion...

God bless ya Bro!

Arsenios

I'm glad you stated that because there is another post and it's probably in the Justification thread (I'm not searching those hundreds of posts LOL) that really made it sound like you practiced self-flagellation. I even asked my EO friend George about it because it caught me off guard. But it's been awhile since that was posted.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Speaking only for the Orthodox, they are not...

We are FAR more draconian in our resistant striving against sin than mere daliances in self flagellation!

Self-flagellation is for SISSIES!!!

REAL MEN do not behave like SISSIES!!

Jes' Sayin'...

This is too funny!

Arsenios

chuckles :disgonbegood:

 

[Arsenios]

I'm glad you stated that because there is another post and it's probably in the Justification thread (I'm not searching those hundreds of posts LOL) that really made it sound like you practiced self-flagellation. I even asked my EO friend George about it because it caught me off guard. But it's been awhile since that was posted.

Well, in your defense, i do have a penchant for saying things that are true in a way that we KNOW For A FACT are NOT true, and vise versa... So reading what I post with open-ness to the ever-possibility of that kind of humor is a good idea...

Yet Paul is clear: in First Corinthians - Love does not rejoice in iniquity - It is not a treasury of wrongs - And it was a sorry state of affairs to watch Menno trying to pound a lie out of me thinking he finally had me caught in a lie...

fwiw, I would now like to read the post that gave you cause to think that I am a self-flagellator...

And fwiw, that would be, were it true, but one of the very minor indictments in my huge litany of much, much greater sins... By MY standards, he was headhunting to put a chip-monk head on his trophy wall for bragging rights... A minor mis-demeanor, I say!!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

chuckles :disgonbegood:

You are FAR too easily amused, you scurrilous dog you!

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Well, in your defense, i do have a penchant for saying things that are true in a way that we KNOW For A FACT are NOT true, and vise versa... So reading what I post with open-ness to the ever-possibility of that kind of humor is a good idea...

Yet Paul is clear: in First Corinthians - Love does not rejoice in iniquity - It is not a treasury of wrongs - And it was a sorry state of affairs to watch Menno trying to pound a lie out of me thinking he finally had me caught in a lie...

fwiw, I would now like to read the post that gave you cause to think that I am a self-flagellator...

And fwiw, that would be, were it true, but one of the very minor indictments in my huge litany of much, much greater sins... By MY standards, he was headhunting to put a chip-monk head on his trophy wall for bragging rights... A minor mis-demeanor, I say!!

Arsenios

Since you were relatively new here when the post was made then I suppose I was unaccustomed to your style of sarcastic humor. I'm off to bed now but maybe after the holiday I can hunt down that post.

 

[RichWh1]

The word fro witness in Greek is Marturios from which we derive the word martyr. Arsenios is correct.




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