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Justification

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Arsenios

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It has been called his most underappreciated film. Trust me, you would like it.

I am very embarrased to say this, but I am trusting you more and more!

Oh the SHAME!!!

A. :)
 

ImaginaryDay2

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It is about apostolic succession but I do not think that Josiah has it right for all sorts of reasons not least being that he does not have a firm grasp of Catholic teaching and I doubt he has a grasp of Orthodox teaching.

We're all learning (I hope) :)
 

Arsenios

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No one, including all leaders in the RC and OC, has a firm grasp of Catholic or Orthodox teaching. The teachings are so convoluted and pretzel twisted that no one can make sense of the process. Double speak and contradictions abound in the RC and OC.

The EO teachings are simple, if ineffably profound, and unchanging now for 2000 years, during which time most of the theological wrinkles have been ironed out... I am offering you nothing new here...

Did Christ succeed in establishing His Body the Ekklesia upon this earth?
Or did He fail, and we have Luther and the printing presses for Him to thank for finally getting right what His Own disciples were unable to get right at all?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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IF our Orthodox friend is correct that the Orthodox view on narrow Justification is "essentially the same as the Lutheran position"...

That is not true - I said that it refers to similar encounters with God, not that it accounts for them according to knowledge... At least, that is what I intended to say... And my age, squeezing juice out of exact parsings of my words in conversation will only get you drool! :):)

Do you really rely on John 3:16 for the Sola's?

Arsenios
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Without said printing press where would we be:

"Trust us, we know..."

*Shudder...
Not even the RCC asks for such trust in the Ekklesia alone

Blessings
 

Arsenios

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Without said printing press where would we be:

"Trust us, we know..."

*Shudder...

I know -

Without my Lexus, where would I be???

So I trust Lexus...

And I shudder not!

A. :)
 

ImaginaryDay2

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ooOOOooo A Lexus? :D

I see your point :)
 

Albion

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Did Christ succeed in establishing His Body the Ekklesia upon this earth?
Or did He fail, and we have Luther and the printing presses for Him to thank for finally getting right what His Own disciples were unable to get right at all?

Arsenios
We may indeed have Luther, among others, to thank for correcting abuses that had entered into the Western church, yes.

And it has nothing to do with him thinking he was inventing Christianity, which is the way critics always try to spin the Reformation.
 

Josiah

simul justus et peccator
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That is not true - I said that it refers to similar encounters with God, not that it accounts for them according to knowledge... At least, that is what I intended to say... And my age, squeezing juice out of exact parsings of my words in conversation will only get you drool! :):)

Arsenios


Okay..... so, we remain without the awareness of the RCC or EOC positions. Fine. But IMO I've sufficiently given the Lutheran (and generally Protestant) view. See post #3. And we know that the RCC declared it to be apostate heresy, anathematized it, and split itself nearly in two over it - so I think it is safe to say the RCC finds the Lutheran position to be horribly wrong and so the Catholic position MUST be radically different. How so, I'm not sure anyone knows (I'm not sure it is capable of knowing the Catholic position - or even if there is ONE) but it must be very and fundamentally different than the Lutheran one it so boldly condemned.


Do you really rely on John 3:16 for the Sola's?

Not exclusively but yes John 3:16 presents it very well. See post 671



- Josiah




.
 
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Josiah

simul justus et peccator
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The Gospel of Justification:


By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God, the GIVING of the divine gifts of spiritual life, faith in Christ as Savior, the Holy Spirit. We do NOT mean all that results of these gifts and actions by God, what CHRISTIANS (those with the gifts of life, faith and justification) are called to do (that's Sanctification in the narrow sense) - in that, there is (and always has been) essential agreement between Catholicism and (most of) Protestantism.


Lutherans teach that justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide as ONE inseparable doctrine.




Sola Gratia (Grace Alone). “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and all this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8, see also Romans 6:23, Titus 3:5, etc.). This places emphasis that our salvation (here in the sense of narrow justification) flows from God’s heart – not ours. It is the fruit of God's works/achievements - not ours. Grace in justification is God’s unmerited, unconditional love/favor/gift. Grace means “getting what we don’t deserve.” It is “God’s Riches At Christ’s Expense” It is God's mercy in NOT treating us as we deserve but of God's grace in giving us what we don't deserve and did not merit.


Solus Christus (Christ Alone). “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). “There is no other name under heaven by which we may be saved” (Acts 4:12). “No one comes to the Father except by Me” (John 14:6). Christ IS our Savior and our salvation. It’s CHRIST’s perfect live, CHRIST’s perfect sacrifice, CHRIST’s triumphant resurrection! Christ is the object of our faith. In justification, it is not how much we believe or how good we believe but in Whom we believe; our focus is on the quality of Christ’s work rather than on the quality of our faith; HE is our certainty. We look to the Cross ( not in the mirror) to see the Savior. There is a life GIVER (as the ancient creed stresses) - and it's not dead self (1 John 5:11-12)


Sola Fide (Faith Alone). “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved!” (Acts 16:30-31. Also see John 3:16, Acts 10:43, etc.). This proclaims that His grace and salvation are embraced by God’s gift of faith. Faith in this context means to trust or rely upon. It means to have active confidence or reliance especially upon something “unseen” or “unproven.” It too is the gift of God.



For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) will not perish but has everlasting life (Justification, narrow)!



"You were dead in your trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1)
“God is love!” (1 John 1:8)
“God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life!” (John 3:16)
“God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies, Christ died for us” (Rom. 5:8).
"This is our testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life, whoever does not have the Son does not have life" (1 John 5:11-12)
“God saved us not because of deeds done by us but in virtue of His own mercy, that we might be saved by His grace” (Titus 3:5),
“For our sake God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
“The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” (Romans 6:23).
“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your doing but it is the gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8).
“Everyone that believes in Christ receives forgiveness of sins through His name” (Acts 10:43)
“Sirs, what must we do to be saved?” They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.” (Acts 16:30-31)


Our justification (narrow) is the result of GOD’S heart, will and work – not our own. Nor is this a mixture of our works and His works so that Jesus is PARTLY the Savior and we are PARTLY the Savior (synergistic Pelagianism), no, Jesus IS the SAVIOR. If it has to do with salvation (justification, narrow) then it's Jesus' doing and gift. We are to keep our hearts and faith focused squarely and only on Jesus who ALONE is THE Savior.



A word about faith…


“For by grace you have been saved through faith in Christ, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” Ephesians 2:8
“We are justified by faith” Romans 5:1
“God justifies he who has faith in Jesus Christ. Romans 3:26


The word “faith” in this context means to rely, to trust. In its use here, it means to rely on Christ for Salvation (and beyond). It is the means by which we embrace the promise and the work of Christ.

Faith is not just (or even primarily) a cognitive or mental thing, it means to place our trust, our life in another – to rely. When we ride in an airplane, we may not understand exactly how the plane flies – but we can board the plane and literally entrust our very lives to it. We may submit to surgery and to a surgeon whom we don’t even know (and who doesn’t know us) and have no idea what will happen – literally entrusting our very life to him/her. Trust is a key factor in lives (to not trust is to be paranoid). For a Christian, we trust our soul and much of our life to God. In salvation, we trust in His works rather than in our own, we look to HIS perfect life rather than our sinful one, to His death rather than the one we deserve. We are placing our lives in His loving hands.

Faith is not our doing, it is the ‘gift of God” (Ephesians 2:8)




A word about our works…

Salvation is not the result of OUR works but rather JESUS’ works. He is the Savior; we are not. Because JESUS is the Savior, it is His works that bring about our salvation – not ours (or else, we’d be the Savior!).

On the other hand, Scripture is clear that faith is never alone (James 2:17, Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 3:12-14). OUR works do not save us, but they result from our being saved – they are the result of our justification and not the cause of it. We love not so that God will love us, rather we love because God first loved us (Galatians 5:25, John 13:34, Hebrews 11:6). OUR works are not the cause of salvation but the result of salvation, and as such, are to accompany our lives as Christians. CHRISTIANS are called to great things! To absolute divine holiness... to love even as Christ first loved us... to service/ministry.... and much, much more! These are not optional! But these are what the justified are called to do, not what makes one the justified. The unregenerate are dead and can't do anything spiritual (cuz they are dead), but once GIVEN life ("I have come that they may have life....") then (and only then) can they begin to live and grow and mature. It's not the growing that makes one alive, but being alive means we can grow.

Apart from Christ, we are "DEAD in our trespasses and sins." Life is not something the dead give to self, life is the GIFT of God given to the dead so that they have life. Yes, Justification (God's works for us) and Sanctification (our works for God) are inseparable, but association does not even imply causation. Yes, generally speaking, the living breathe but it is not breathing that causes one to be concieved and have life - it's having been given life that causes one to breathe.


Messing this up undermines everything! When Jesus is no longer the Savior, we’ve stepped outside of Christianity. When we are made our own Savior (in whole or in part), the result is not only a conflict with Scripture and the central affirmation of Christianity, but it results in one of two things: A “terror of the conscience” (as we realize we’re not the “savior” of self we need to be) or we become little self-righteous, condemning souls (because we think we are what we need to be). It results in the beauty and comfort of the Gospel being lost and our relationship to God undermined.

In some circles, OUR works are added to the requirements of John 3:16 so that it reads, “For God so loved the world so that those who do “X, Y and Z” will not perish but be given what their works deserve, everlasting life.” The key factor then is not Christ but our performance of “X, Y and Z” – not His work but our work, WE become the Savior, not Christ. And we must worry if we’ve done “X, Y and Z” well enough (remember His call to perfection?), if we’ve done enough, if we’ve done well enough, if we’ve been sufficient. IF we answer “NO” the result is a “terror of the conscience” so that we never know if we are forgiven or saved or heaven-bound or not. IF we answer “YES” the result is often a prideful, self-righteous, condemning modern-day Pharisee. We must not mix our works with Christ’s works, the cause of salvation with the fruit of salvation. The result is the “peace that passes all understanding” and love that isn’t selfish and self-serving but truly of God.

Jesus is the Savior! We are saved by His grace and mercy, by His life and death and resurrection! Our faith, our rest, our certainty are in Christ! Our peace, our confidence, our certainty are in Christ!




SEE ALSO POST # 8



The RCC declared this Lutheran position to be heresy and anathematized it and split itself nearly in two over this.





- Josiah



.
 
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popsthebuilder

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Would the works of the abiding servant, or believer, or follower not glorify GOD, being ultimately caused by GOD in the first place?

It may not justify us but we are still Gods workmanship

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popsthebuilder

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Seems that in both cases, they look forward to the meeting with Christ. Perhaps the differentiation is that this was the looking forward to the Truth where as now, it would be looking forward to the gathering or second coming.

(Just thinking; though it may be looked down upon (are we ever to look down upon another?))

peace
As I have gathered from my Greek Orthodox friend. I think you will find this on several issues - not always perfectly but quite similar. Which brings up the interesting point: Since the RCC officially condemned Lutheranism for its view on Justification, condemned it as apostate heresy and split itself over this, what does that imply to the Orthodox position which you (I think correctly) indicate is "much the equivalent?"


I look forward to discussing the Eucharist with you, as well..... and whether you agree with the discomfort Lutherans have with the 1551 Dogma of Transubstantiation rather than just holding to Real Presence as Lutherans do? This was not an issue in the Reformation since the RCC did not dogmatize Transubstantiation until after Luther's death, but since 1551 it has been a dividing point between Lutherans and post-Trent modern Catholics. I'd like to discuss, too, at some point, the 1870 De Fide Dogma of the Catholic Church regarding the Infallibility of it's Roman Pontiff. This too was not centrally an issue in the Reformation since this wasn't dogma then, but it WAS a very powerful point. Some historians conclude that while Justification was the GIVEN reason for the split and excommunications, at least as important was Luther's view that the Catholic Bishop in Rome is NOT necessarily INFALLIBLE (even when speaking ex-Cathedra); it is often said that TODAY this is the largest stumbling block between Lutheran and Catholics.... and that the RCC, by making this point DE FIDE DOGMA.... any bridge has been burned. I wonder how the EOC views all this. Ah but another issue for another thread.








Before I give you my opinion, I need to stress AGAIN that while Lutherans welcome questions (from anywhere), we are hesitant to "answer" them (at least in any formal or dogmatic sense) unless Scripture (and under that, the Ecumenical Creeds and 7 Ecumenical Councils) do. We tend to regard speculation as just that.... and we will reject it if it seems to contradict or threaten a biblical and ecumenical teaching.

IMO (and this is NOT - in ANY sense official Lutheran teaching).... there is no essential difference. Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide has ALWAYS been in place since Adam and Eve were kicked out of the Garden and the promise made of a Savior. The only significant difference being the Saints in the OT had a faith that looked FORWARD to the Messiah whereas the Saints today look BACK to the Messiah.



- Josiah




.

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popsthebuilder

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Looks like case closed to me personally; except for the definition of actual faith; other than that which produces works pleasing to GOD that is.

James 2:22

βλέπεις ὅτι
You are seeing that...

ἡ πίστις συνήργει τοῖς ἔργοις αὐτοῦ,
The Faith is working together (literally, synergizing) with his works...

καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἔργων
And out of the works

ἡ πίστις ἐτελειώθη
The Faith is being perfected.

How do you understand the above where it clearly states that the Faith is perfected by works, that Faith and works work together, that the relationship is SYNERGY...? συνήργει = SYNERGEI

Synergy between Faith and works where out of works is Faith perfected??

Nobody engages this text...

Arsenios
You made a very good point that cannot be refuted with any intellectual honesty or integrity.

peace
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ImaginaryDay2

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Imo (and mine alone), might it make more sense that Reformation Christians (this one, anyway, as I can speak for myself) would look to Christ who is present? Yes, we find significance in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ (past), but our hope is in a Christ who is also present and shows Himself through means of grace.
 

Arsenios

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ooOOOooo A Lexus? :D

It's my work truck -

I ain't no hard-body construction guy...

But I do work for a living...

In the trades...

I see your point :)

The point is we somehow managed one thousand five hundred years of Christianity with the Churches alone having Bibles...

The exceptions are very few and very very far between...

THAT is the ORIGINAL matrix of this Faith...

NO printing presses...

ONLY manuscription by the Faithful Members of the Body of Christ...

Now we all have our very own mass produced printed Bibles,
And our Millennials don't care a hoot...
and Christianity is in decline...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios
 
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popsthebuilder

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Interlinears seem to work pretty well.
I don't read greek, therefore I cannot engage you in parsing the greek language. However, I addressed the issue with the tools I have.
Since your works interpretation is held by only yourself, I will leave you to your interpretation and trust the many who easily equal your greek knowledge, yet present that you are wrong.
I'm left with believing you or believing them. Since all of scripture speaks against your position, I will believe them.
How's that for deep thoughts?

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ImaginaryDay2

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James 2:22

βλέπεις ὅτι
You are seeing that...

ἡ πίστις συνήργει τοῖς ἔργοις αὐτοῦ,
The Faith is working together (literally, synergizing) with his works...

καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἔργων
And out of the works

ἡ πίστις ἐτελειώθη
The Faith is being perfected.

How do you understand the above where it clearly states that the Faith is perfected by works, that Faith and works work together, that the relationship is SYNERGY...? συνήργει = SYNERGEI

Synergy between Faith and works where out of works is Faith perfected??

Nobody engages this text...

Arsenios

For some of the Reformation it would cause issues. Faith alone would not be faith alone (in the opinion of some) any longer. It would turn into some issue of "works righteousness", when I don't think that's what the passage has in mind.
 

Arsenios

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Looks like case closed to me personally; except for the definition of actual faith; other than that which produces works pleasing to GOD that is.

You made a very good point that cannot be refuted with any intellectual honesty or integrity.

Thank-you...

With the definite article in front of Faith - eg THE Faith - It has to be construed as something definite...
So WHICH Faith is THE Faith?
It is obviously Christ's Faith, which He discipled to His disciples whom He sent forth as Apostles to disciple all the nations, teaching them and baptizing them...
Our personal faith is obedience to the Gospel of Repentance and seeking entry into the Body of our Lord...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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The Gospel of Justification:
By "Justification" (narrow) we mean the ESTABLISHMENT of a new and different relationship with God...

For the Orthodox, we mean the establishment of a NEW CREATION IN GOD...

The new relationship flows from that... As do the Gifts...

Arsenios
 
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