Justification

[MennoSota]

I understand that you have taught that your own self-righteous works justify you before God.
You quote Ephesians 2:10, yet you seem to ignore that it's all God and nothing of you. You seem to gloss over the important phrase "in Christ" which I have been stating from the beginning.
Another thread was dedicated to what it means to be in Christ. It is connected to justification as well as salvation.

The good works that Christians do are given to them by God for them to do. Ephesians 2:10. If that bothers you, tough. It's just a fact.

Ephesians 2:7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them​

The trouble with your posts is that you change "good works" into "your works" as if you didn't understand that there is a difference between the two things. Maybe you don't understand, who can say, but the fact is that "good works" are not "your works" even though they are performed by "you". When you grasp that difference then maybe you'll dump this horrible theology that is pushed in your posts.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Yet, you demand that works are how you are justified and that grace is not how you are justified. You make Jesus atonement worthless and vain while you exchange your own work in its place.
Your concept of grace is not grace at all, but your own works. Why? Why are you determined to justify yourself before God by your own self-righteous works when God tells you that your works are worthless. You deny grace and preach works. That is sad.

Are you even reading what's being written??!!

You know that is not true because every time it is written MennoSota objects to it and changes "good works" to "your own works" as if any human beings can do anything apart from God's grace.

For goodness sake, read what he wrote. This is just getting silly.

It looks like contradiction for its own sake. There can be no agreement when even the most basic concept drawn directly from holy scripture is gainsaid for no reason but to be contrary.

I agree. Intellectual dishonesty and misrepresentation bugs me to no end.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

I understand that you have taught that your own self-righteous works justify you before God.

That has not been argued in this thread. Stop being obtuse.

 

[Arsenios]

Where is the faith in God if a person is trusting in her/his own works? "If I make it at all." The sentence places the onus for being in the presence of God upon ones own works. In that case...Jesus died in vain.
That is extremely sad, MC. Extremely sad.

I simply know that I am a sinner, and the race is not over till the end, and temptations will come... So IF I simply persevere in vigilance of soul as we are all instructed to do to the end, and do not turn myself back to sin, I will be saved, even as I am now saved... It is simply a matter of humility in Orthodoxy to not preen about bragging in how certain one is of their eternal salvation, and Oh SO sad about those others who are not so certain like we are... Remember the Publican who could not even lift his eyes toward the heavens, and was justified... But not the one who boasted in his certainty of Salvation...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

I simply know that I am a sinner, and the race is not over till the end, and temptations will come... So IF I simply persevere in vigilance of soul as we are all instructed to do to the end, and do not turn myself back to sin, I will be saved, even as I am now saved... It is simply a matter of humility in Orthodoxy to not preen about bragging in how certain one is of their eternal salvation, and Oh SO sad about those others who are not so certain like we are... Remember the Publican who could not even lift his eyes toward the heavens, and was justified... But not the one who boasted in his certainty of Salvation...

Arsenios

Amen.

A man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

It really is not hard to understand is it? Yet some will not learn from holy scripture even though they loudly proclaim that their stand is on "scripture alone". It is so odd to hear "sola scriptura" uttered by people who do not really care to read, understand, an apply holy scripture.

 

[Arsenios]

I understand that you have taught that your own self-righteous works justify you before God.

Are you still praying for me?


Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you still praying for me?
Arsenios

Let's be "self righteous" together :disgonbegood:

 

[Lamb]

I simply know that I am a sinner, and the race is not over till the end, and temptations will come... So IF I simply persevere in vigilance of soul as we are all instructed to do to the end, and do not turn myself back to sin, I will be saved, even as I am now saved... It is simply a matter of humility in Orthodoxy to not preen about bragging in how certain one is of their eternal salvation, and Oh SO sad about those others who are not so certain like we are... Remember the Publican who could not even lift his eyes toward the heavens, and was justified... But not the one who boasted in his certainty of Salvation...

Arsenios

I brag only in Christ. That's not something to be ashamed of. My assurance is completely because of Him and nothing I provide and in Him I boast! Your fears are because you are looking to yourself to get the job done that Jesus took care of for you already.

God is the shepherd and the sheep are His and do not become sheep or any better sheep by doing something. Their identity is because of the shepherd and He has promised to keep them in His fold. Have no fear little flock.

 

[MennoSota]

Yes, I read it. MC makes the case for a general grace. Yet with salvation and justification he has consistently preached works. Works is not grace. Works is law.

Are you even reading what's being written??!!



For goodness sake, read what he wrote. This is just getting silly.



I agree. Intellectual dishonesty and misrepresentation bugs me to no end.

 

[MennoSota]

It certainly has been taught. Open your eyes. Justification by works has and is being taught in this thread. The Bible is clear that our own self-righteous works do nothing to justify us. Only Christ, the giver and sustainer of faith, justifies us. Faith produces good works. We produce nothing.
If you cannot grasp the problem with MCs pretzel, don't call me obtuse. Look at yourself and ask why you fail to recognize the problem.

That has not been argued in this thread. Stop being obtuse.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, I read it. MC makes the case for a general grace. Yet with salvation and justification he has consistently preached works. Works is not grace. Works is law.

Good works are not works of the Law [of Moses]. Good works are helping widows in their distress, clothing the poor, preaching the gospel, feeding the hungry. Surely you know this. And if you do not then you do now.

 

[MennoSota]

Apart from Christ they are just self-righteous acts. Generated by God's gift of faith, they glorify God and God alone. Surely you know this. And if you do not, then you do now.

Good works are not works of the Law [of Moses]. Good works are helping widows in their distress, clothing the poor, preaching the gospel, feeding the hungry. Surely you know this. And if you do not then you do now.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Apart from Christ they are just self-righteous acts. Generated by God's gift of faith, they glorify God and God alone. Surely you know this. And if you do not, then you do now.

Doing good is Christ's work done in his power by his Spirit; call it self-righteous if you like. Call it any name that pleases you. The truth is that it is what the holy scriptures call the faithful to do. It is God's work and it is God-righteous.

 

[Josiah]

The truth is that it is what the holy scriptures call the faithful to do. It is God's work and it is God-righteous.

I could not agree more... As I've noted for years, and as the RCC itself has stressed for 500 years, we do NOT disagree on the issue of Sanctification (narrow) - at least not in any significant way. Nor is that the issue of this thread. The RCC stressed as boldly as it could that the issue is JUSTIFICATION (narrow), it was Luther's stand on that (you know, John 3:16) that the RCC declared was apostate heresy, the doctrine of Jesus as the Savior (in justification).

 

[Josiah]

The good works that Christians do are given to them by God for them to do.

Yup. But let's address the issue of this thread, which is JUSTIFICATION, What CHRISTIANS do, by definition, are done by CHRISTIANS.

The good works a CHRISTIAN does are not what makes him/her a Christian - you keep getting this backwards in your attempt to reject the Gospel. Yes, the living BREATHE but it's not breathing that causes one to be conceived and gain the gift of life.... living and breathing are OFTEN associated, it's even possible to say that generally speaking, one who is living is breathing and one who is breathing is alive (generally speaking) but it is wrong to say that one gives life to self by breathing. Protestants agree with the Ancient Creed that the Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of Life (not the Dead); and we believe that does NOT mean that the Holy Spirit just OFFERS life (and thus is wrong to say He GIVES it, that being a lie worthly of being ex-communicated asc a "apostate heretic") but rather Protestants hold that God GIVES it. And Protestants affirm that Jesus IS (actually) THE (only and all-sufficient) SAVIOR and thus Jesus actually SAVES people and no one else (including self or the RC Denomination). The RCC condemned this view as apostate heresy and split itself over this, viewing it better to split itself nearly in half than to accept this Protestant view of God as the GIVER of spiritual live and Jesus as the SAVIOR.

Now, yes, once with the divine Gift of life - faith - justification, yes there is a life-long, synergistic, progressive process of becoming more Christ-like, increasingly Sanctified in our lives, doing OUR good works (which are rewarded in heaven) but that's a topic not permitted in this thread and a topic where there is general agreement (and always has been). The RC Denomination did NOT repudiate Luthranism for its stance on Sanctification (there was and is largely agreement on that) but on Justification (God GIVES life, Jesus IS the Savior). See posts 2, 3 and 8.




- Josah

 

[Andrew]

It certainly has been taught. Open your eyes. Justification by works has and is being taught in this thread. The Bible is clear that our own self-righteous works do nothing to justify us. Only Christ, the giver and sustainer of faith, justifies us. Faith produces good works. We produce nothing.
If you cannot grasp the problem with MCs pretzel, don't call me obtuse. Look at yourself and ask why you fail to recognize the problem.

It may not justify us but we are still Gods workmanship

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

Open your eyes...
don't call me obtuse...
Look at yourself...

For myself, Menno, I am just like you...
I never give anyone else my advice...
Unless, of course, I am not using it...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Surely you know this.

Shirley??

And if you do not then you do now.

I must say I LOVE your optimism!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Apart from Christ they are just self-righteous acts. Generated by God's gift of faith, they glorify God and God alone.

Well, since I am devoid of God's Grace in your eyes,
are you advising me to stop helping little old ladies across the street
and to start kicking them down into the gutter instead?

Or do you actually endorse my hypocrisy in helping others?

I do love your advice...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I could not agree more... As I've noted for years, and as the RCC itself has stressed for 500 years, we do NOT disagree on the issue of Sanctification (narrow) - at least not in any significant way. Nor is that the issue of this thread. The RCC stressed as boldly as it could that the issue is JUSTIFICATION (narrow), it was Luther's stand on that (you know, John 3:16) that the RCC declared was apostate heresy, the doctrine of Jesus as the Savior (in justification).

You keep coming back to this "Narrow Justificaiton" issue with the Latin Church of the West, which condemned Luther's view... So finally, I must ask you this:

What do you understand to be the difference between the EO and the RC understanding of Salvation?

Arsenios