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Justification

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Albion

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As an original Protestant (Lutheran) I believe I am entirely justified because of Christ and entirely covered in His righteousness.

It seems that not all Christians have that belief.
That appears to be the case. In post 494 a member advocated what is usually termed "works righteousness." Then, in post 496, he attempted to elaborate on that POV and only wound up proving what the rest of us have been saying all along. Read it without any prejudgments and see if it does not demonstrate that works are a verification of faith but are not what justifies anyone, either in whole or in part.
 

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That appears to be the case. In post 494 a member advocated what is usually termed "works righteousness." Then, in post 496, he attempted to elaborate on that POV and only wound up proving what the rest of us have been saying all along. Read it without any prejudgments and see if it does not demonstrate that works are a verification of faith but are not what justifies anyone, either in whole or in part.

MC, is that true that you believe that works do not justify you either in whole or in part?
 

Arsenios

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Isaiah 64
[6]We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Nothing like Isaiah...

καὶ ἐγενήθημεν
And we have become...

ὡς ἀκάθαρτοι πάντες ἡμεῖς,
as uncleansed, all of us...

ὡς ῥάκος ἀποκαθημένης
as rags uncleaned

πᾶσα ἡ δικαιοσύνη ἡμῶν·
all the righteousness of us

καὶ ἐξερρύημεν ὡς φύλλα
and carried away as leaves

διὰ τὰς ἀνομίας ἡμῶν,
through the lawlessness of us

οὕτως ἄνεμος οἴσει ἡμᾶς.
in this manner a strong wind driving us

In slightly more presentable English, still modestly poetic:

And we have all become as uncleansed,
As unwashed rags (is) all our righteousness...
And (we have become) blown away as leaves through our iniquities
We are thus driven by (such) a strong wind (of iniquity)...


I am reminded of the Psalm that sings:
"For in Thy Sight shall no man be justified..."

Can't compare ourselves to God...
But if we are IN Christ...
IF we have been baptized INTO Christ...
We don't have to compare...
We simply serve Him...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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This is coming from.one who thinks repentance is not even needed.

Well, he thinks it is only needed AFTER we are already saved...

So what's with your Orthodox Avatar...

You name is not Steve, is it?

Arsenios
 

popsthebuilder

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Well, he thinks it is only needed AFTER we are already saved...

So what's with your Orthodox Avatar...

You name is not Steve, is it?

Arsenios
The pic is something I found I while back. It seemed and seems very telling of the past, and future.

My name is Jerry

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

Arsenios

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What I do for my salvation is trust that Jesus died on the cross and my sins are forgiven. I'm fully covered in that righteousness of the Savior. Aren't you?

Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also,
He said unto them:

Whosoever is willing to come after Me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,
and follow Me.


Salvation is not forgiveness of sins...
Forgiveness of sins is needed for Salvation...
You are not given nor are you imputed the Righteousness of Christ...
You are made a willing SUBJECT of this Righteousness...
A Kingdom is where the King is obeyed...
Salvation is entry INTO the Kingdom of Heaven...
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is repentance unto this entry...

Arsenios
 

Josiah

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Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also,
He said unto them:

Whosoever is willing to come after Me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,
and follow Me.



Absolutely. But this thread is not about Sanctication. Those who are DEAD and thus the anti-thesis of willing, those who deny Christ and not self - they aren't doing that, are they?

Now, He also said this "to His disciples" (those Justified, those WITH the divine gifts of life, faith and justification) - and yes, to THEM, Sanctification applies. But this thread isn't about Sanctification (what CHRISTIANS do).
 

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The pic is something I found I while back. It seemed and seems very telling of the past, and future.

My name is Jerry

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

I know a guy called Steve the Builder...

Steve has some children, you see...

It was just a wild question...

So... Nice to meet you, Jerry... :)

Arsenios
 

popsthebuilder

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I know a guy called Steve the Builder...

Steve has some children, you see...

It was just a wild question...

So... Nice to meet you, Jerry... :)

Arsenios
I have a couple of boys and am a carpenter.

My oldest picked the name years ago for something related to work.

Good to meet you.

peace

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk
 

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Mar 8:34
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also,
He said unto them:

Whosoever is willing to come after Me,
let him deny himself,
and take up his cross,
and follow Me.


Salvation is not forgiveness of sins...
Forgiveness of sins is needed for Salvation...
You are not given nor are you imputed the Righteousness of Christ...
You are made a willing SUBJECT of this Righteousness...
A Kingdom is where the King is obeyed...
Salvation is entry INTO the Kingdom of Heaven...
The Gospel of the Kingdom of God is repentance unto this entry...

Arsenios

Jesus won salvation for me at the cross. It is finished. By grace through faith I trust in Him alone.

That is what the reformers brought back to Christianity since it had gone astray and people were trying to say that a "process" needed to happen before being acceptable before God for salvation.
 

Arsenios

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Jesus won salvation for me at the cross. It is finished. By grace through faith I trust in Him alone.

That is what the reformers brought back to Christianity since it had gone astray and people were trying to say that a "process" needed to happen before being acceptable before God for salvation.

Well, may God bless your journey!

Mark 8:34 does not go away with your wonderful faith in Christ...

Arsenios
 

Lamb

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Well, may God bless your journey!

Mark 8:34 does not go away with your wonderful faith in Christ...

Arsenios

Mark 8:34 in no way changes the fact that I'm covered in Christ's righteousness. :)
 

Arsenios

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Jesus won salvation for me at the cross. It is finished. By grace through faith I trust in Him alone.

That is what the reformers brought back to Christianity since it had gone astray and people were trying to say that a "process" needed to happen before being acceptable before God for salvation.

Discipleship is repetition... A disciple is a mathiti in Greek, not unrelated to math... One enters into a Way of Life, and Christ, as you know IS the Way AND the Life... Prior to being first called Christians in the beginninngs of my Church at Antioch, the followers of Christ were known as: "The People of the Way"... And this referred to their MANNER of Life in Christ... "To Live (is) Christ" as Paul writes...

Because, you see, we become what we do... If we do repentance, we become repentant... If we do good, we become good... If we do evil we become evildoers... If we murder, we become murderers... And entry into the Kingdom is not the end of the struggle... The Giants who were enemies of the Hebrews were not encountered until AFTER they crossed the Jordan and entered into the Promised Land, and likewise, for most of us, we do not encounter the most serious opposition to our Way until we are baptized INTO Christ...

And the point of it all, the Household of God on earth is the hospital of the soul that is wounded by sin, and discipleship in that Household provides us with a way of life that overcomes our sins... And great is that struggle... And worthwhile... For this Way of Life is contains the medicines of immortality... And leads to our death to the world, and our Life in Christ...

Christianity is an arduous struggle to overcome powers and principalities in our own souls...

Without the struggle and the overcoming, we are but untried believers, and without trials, and the purification of the heart, we cannot 'see' God... "Blessed are the pure in heart..."

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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What does holy scripture say...
Romans 8:1-39
[1]So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.
[2]And because you belong to him, the power of the life-giving Spirit has freed you from the power of sin that leads to death.
[3]The law of Moses was unable to save us because of the weakness of our sinful nature. So God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son in a body like the bodies we sinners have. And in that body God declared an end to sin’s control over us by giving his Son as a sacrifice for our sins.
[4]He did this so that the just requirement of the law would be fully satisfied for us, who no longer follow our sinful nature but instead follow the Spirit.
[5]Those who are dominated by the sinful nature think about sinful things, but those who are controlled by the Holy Spirit think about things that please the Spirit.
[6]So letting your sinful nature control your mind leads to death. But letting the Spirit control your mind leads to life and peace.
[7]For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God’s laws, and it never will.
[8]That’s why those who are still under the control of their sinful nature can never please God.
[9]But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)
[10]And Christ lives within you, so even though your body will die because of sin, the Spirit gives you life because you have been made right with God.
[11]The Spirit of God, who raised Jesus from the dead, lives in you. And just as God raised Christ Jesus from the dead, he will give life to your mortal bodies by this same Spirit living within you.
[12]Therefore, dear brothers and sisters, you have no obligation to do what your sinful nature urges you to do.
[13]For if you live by its dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live.
[14]For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
[15]So you have not received a spirit that makes you fearful slaves. Instead, you received God’s Spirit when he adopted you as his own children. Now we call him, “Abba, Father.”
[16]For his Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children.
[17]And since we are his children, we are his heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share his glory, we must also share his suffering.
[18]Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory he will reveal to us later.
[19]For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.
[20]Against its will, all creation was subjected to God’s curse. But with eager hope,
[21]the creation looks forward to the day when it will join God’s children in glorious freedom from death and decay.
[22]For we know that all creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.
[23]And we believers also groan, even though we have the Holy Spirit within us as a foretaste of future glory, for we long for our bodies to be released from sin and suffering. We, too, wait with eager hope for the day when God will give us our full rights as his adopted children, including the new bodies he has promised us.
[24]We were given this hope when we were saved. (If we already have something, we don’t need to hope for it.
[25]But if we look forward to something we don’t yet have, we must wait patiently and confidently.)
[26]And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.
[27]And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will.
[28]And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
[29]For God knew his people in advance, and he chose them to become like his Son, so that his Son would be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.
[30]And having chosen them, he called them to come to him. And having called them, he gave them right standing with himself. And having given them right standing, he gave them his glory.
[31]What shall we say about such wonderful things as these? If God is for us, who can ever be against us?
[32]Since he did not spare even his own Son but gave him up for us all, won’t he also give us everything else?
[33]Who dares accuse us whom God has chosen for his own? No one—for God himself has given us right standing with himself.
[34]Who then will condemn us? No one—for Christ Jesus died for us and was raised to life for us, and he is sitting in the place of honor at God’s right hand, pleading for us.
[35]Can anything ever separate us from Christ’s love? Does it mean he no longer loves us if we have trouble or calamity, or are persecuted, or hungry, or destitute, or in danger, or threatened with death?
[36](As the Scriptures say, “For your sake we are killed every day; we are being slaughtered like sheep.”)
[37]No, despite all these things, overwhelming victory is ours through Christ, who loved us.
[38]And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow—not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love.
[39]No power in the sky above or in the earth below—indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord.
You may believe whatever you like but it will not alter what is written in the holy scriptures.
 

MennoSota

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What does scripture say?
Titus 3:3-7
[3]Once we, too, were foolish and disobedient. We were misled and became slaves to many lusts and pleasures. Our lives were full of evil and envy, and we hated each other.
[4]But—When God our Savior revealed his kindness and love,
[5]he saved us, not because of the righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He washed away our sins, giving us a new birth and new life through the Holy Spirit.
[6]He generously poured out the Spirit upon us through Jesus Christ our Savior.
[7]Because of his grace he declared us righteous and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life.

The ESV in verse 7 says:
"So that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life."
 

MennoSota

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What does scripture say?
Romans 5:1-6
[1]Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
[2]Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.
[3]We can rejoice, too, when we run into problems and trials, for we know that they help us develop endurance.
[4]And endurance develops strength of character, and character strengthens our confident hope of salvation.
[5]And this hope will not lead to disappointment. For we know how dearly God loves us, because he has given us the Holy Spirit to fill our hearts with his love.
[6]When we were utterly helpless, Christ came at just the right time and died for us sinners.

The ESV in verse 1 says:
"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."
 

MennoSota

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What does scripture say?
Galatians 3:21-26
[21]Is there a conflict, then, between God’s law and God’s promises? Absolutely not! If the law could give us new life, we could be made right with God by obeying it.
[22]But the Scriptures declare that we are all prisoners of sin, so we receive God’s promise of freedom only by believing in Jesus Christ.
[23]Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.
[24]Let me put it another way. The law was our guardian until Christ came; it protected us until we could be made right with God through faith.
[25]And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.
[26]For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

In the ESV verse 24 says:
"So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith."
 

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It is clear from scripture that Christians are justified by faith and that faith produces good works to the glory of God.
Without faith, the works that are done are all self-righteous and self-gratuitious. Faith, however, gives fuel to good works that glorify God and His righteousness.
Indeed...what does scripture say...
 

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Discipleship is repetition... A disciple is a mathiti in Greek, not unrelated to math... One enters into a Way of Life, and Christ, as you know IS the Way AND the Life... Prior to being first called Christians in the beginninngs of my Church at Antioch, the followers of Christ were known as: "The People of the Way"... And this referred to their MANNER of Life in Christ... "To Live (is) Christ" as Paul writes...

Because, you see, we become what we do... If we do repentance, we become repentant... If we do good, we become good... If we do evil we become evildoers... If we murder, we become murderers... And entry into the Kingdom is not the end of the struggle... The Giants who were enemies of the Hebrews were not encountered until AFTER they crossed the Jordan and entered into the Promised Land, and likewise, for most of us, we do not encounter the most serious opposition to our Way until we are baptized INTO Christ...

And the point of it all, the Household of God on earth is the hospital of the soul that is wounded by sin, and discipleship in that Household provides us with a way of life that overcomes our sins... And great is that struggle... And worthwhile... For this Way of Life is contains the medicines of immortality... And leads to our death to the world, and our Life in Christ...

Christianity is an arduous struggle to overcome powers and principalities in our own souls...

Without the struggle and the overcoming, we are but untried believers, and without trials, and the purification of the heart, we cannot 'see' God... "Blessed are the pure in heart..."

Arsenios

I don't have to earn my discipleship...I am already his and am clothed in Christ's righteousness (Galatians 3:27). You see, when God sees me, He sees His Son and it's the same for all believers who are baptized, for they are clothed in Christ.
 

Josiah

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[MENTION=486]Arsenios[/MENTION]


One enters into a Way of Life, and Christ, as you know IS the Way AND the Life... Prior to being first called Christians in the beginninngs of my Church at Antioch, the followers of Christ were known as: "The People of the Way"... And this referred to their MANNER of Life in Christ... "To Live (is) Christ" as Paul writes...


How is one ENTERED into that? What about NON-Christians, DEAD people, with no faith, no Holy Spirit.... people who deny God exists and hold that Jesus is a silly myth and NOTHING more? Does the Orthodox Church hold that ACTUALLY, all people are automatically Christians simply by virtue of having been conceived as a homo sapien - and thus Jesus is not ever the Savior (no need for such if everyone already is a Christian), and the ONLY issue is that person GROWING in that life? So that Jesus saves no one (since there's no one to save), so that ALL homo sapiens are Christians by viture of their DNA, but now Jesus and the Church HELP people become MORE so? OR.... is there a spiritual BIRTH, a COMING into this relationship?



until we are baptized INTO Christ...


Why does Baptism matter if all everyone already has faith, life and justification? If all are ALREADY Christians? If NOTHING happens or beings there? If there is no beginning, no entry, no justification?




entry into the Kingdom is not the end of the struggle...


But if we must ENTER, there must be a time before that. And perhaps those who have not entered. And perhaps some point in which we ENTERED, and a means why which that blessing is received. OR COURSE, this "entry" (justification) is not the END of ANYTHING - a point Lutherans stress. Our spiritual birth is no more and "end all" than is our physical birth. But it is a beginning, an entry (and Lutherans argue, a GIFT from God entirely because of Christ - a point we stress but were condemned as apostate heretics for). Sure, birth simply begins an enormous struggle - yes a synergistic, progressive one - of growing and maturing. Catholics and Lutherans have never disagreed with that, the point of what happened in the 16th Century West was that Lutherans argued that Jesus is the Savior (not self) and that Jesus does the saving (in this sense of Justification); we believe in the Holy Spirit as the Lord and GIVER of Life. Sure, AS SOON AS life is ours, we begin that journey of living the Christian life (Sanctification) - and Catholics and Protestants agree 100% with that. But the Lutheran position that Justification in t his sense of ENTRY, this sense of the spark of life and faith - THAT'S something God does, because of His love, in His mercy, in view of the Incarnation, the Cross, the Empty Tomb so that Jesus is the Savior, so that we are justified because of what Jesus did and not dead self adequately jumping through a long serious of hoops, right into heaven (no need for a Savior, just a Helper). This was declared an apostate heresy, so the Catholic position of this Entry MUST be radically different (unless it is saying that the RCC also teaches apostate heresy). What is the ORTHODOX position? Is Jesus the Savior? Are all Homo Sapiens already saved by virtue of their DNA and only need to GROW in that? Is there a time when faith and life DAWN, when one ENTERS into this relationship and process? IF so (and thus we can talk about Justification and not just Sanctification), then does that happen because of Christ or because of the person has adequately jumped through a number of hoops thus creating faith and life in themselves?




Christianity is an arduous struggle to overcome powers and principalities in our own souls...


I'd say the Christian LIFE is that..... But I don't think "arduous struggles" causes oneself to come to life, causes faith to dawn, causes the Holy Spirit to first enter them....




Without the struggle and the overcoming, we are but untried believers, and without trials, and the purification of the heart, we cannot 'see' God... "Blessed are the pure in heart..."


MAYBE..... but are they BELIEVERS (even if not pure, not perfect, not mature)? I was conceived - and thus had physical life - but I was not yet FULLY man - all moral, all loving, all serving. But IMO, just because I'm not yet a PERFECT and FULLY MATURE man does not mean that I have no life, that nothing was given to me at my conception....

I realize you want to 'by-pass" the entire issue of this thread.... skip right over it.... placing ALL the emphasis (and permitting NOTHING OTHER) on the GROWTH of a Christian. But frankly, brother, that's not the issue of this thread and that's NEVER been a point of much debate.... everyone is agreeing with you. But the issue here is not what CHRISTIANS should do and be and become, it's NOT that the living should live, it's not what things are associated with Christians, the issue is BECOMING, the COMING of faith, life, justification. The issue of that ENTRY. The RCC was very, very careful to note THAT'S what it was condemning Lutherans for - NOT SANCTIFICATION (the issue you want to discuss).





.
 
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