Justification

[Lamb]

God is the Judge of them as well, of the Living AND the DEAD... And many, many of these will be far, far ahead of me in the line of Salvation... IF I make it at all...

That is one of the saddest things to see on a Christian site that a believer doesn't have assurance of salvation found in Christ Jesus who died for our sins The Gospel is to bring us peace and joy not uncertainty.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That is one of the saddest things to see on a Christian site that a believer doesn't have assurance of salvation found in Christ Jesus who died for our sins The Gospel is to bring us peace and joy not uncertainty.

Living the faith without self delusions is not sad.

 

[Andrew]

Hebrews 10 shares the image of Jesus in the heavenly temple sprinkling his blood on us and making us clean.

So is that a type and shadow?
Deeds in the OT are filthy rags but in the NT Jesus makes us righteous as in our faith 'produces' righteous deeds.

Also, does that imply that in our faith our deeds ARE righteous? If I save a lamb that fell into well for instance, and Jesus is my rest (Sabbath) and in Jesus I did this, did I break Gods command by displaying works?
Is a tradition or ritual a form of works, can I say the lords prayer with a group of people or is that also works? I really think you confuse what Catholics do as to why they do it, I believe the traditions are just passed down from the early church and its impossible to cut down roots of any culture unless by genocide. My beef has always been pushing religion on rebellious kids, it just makes them atheist or confuses the heck out of them, yet maybe kids werent always rebellious but its just a sign of the end time (its biblical) but I am not against the Catholic culture and thats what it seems to be to me (a culture), I just have no idea who you are trying to attack or 'uphold', maybe if you give me an example of 'works' other than 'baptism'. I believe if Jesus says "do" we should "do".

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[MennoSota]

Where is the faith in God if a person is trusting in her/his own works? "If I make it at all." The sentence places the onus for being in the presence of God upon ones own works. In that case...Jesus died in vain.
That is extremely sad, MC. Extremely sad.

Living the faith without self delusions is not sad.

 

[MennoSota]

So is that a type and shadow?
Deeds in the OT are filthy rags but in the NT Jesus makes us righteous as in our faith 'produces' righteous deeds.

No. Our deeds, whether we are Christians or not, are as filthy rags before God. Only in Christ, by Jesus shed blood atoning for us, is there any righteousness. We delude ourselves to imagine anything we do is viewed as righteous apart from being in Christ. It's all God and nothing of our doing. God's view of us apart from Christ is that we are thoroughly corrupt. But, in Christ, God's view of us is thoroughly righteous...because Jesus is righteous.
Our justification is entirely because of Christ and nothing of ourselves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Doing good is not sad and never will be sad. The wicked will go into eternal punishment; but the righteous, to eternal life. A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[atpollard]

No. Our deeds, whether we are Christians or not, are as filthy rags before God. Only in Christ, by Jesus shed blood atoning for us, is there any righteousness. We delude ourselves to imagine anything we do is viewed as righteous apart from being in Christ. It's all God and nothing of our doing. God's view of us apart from Christ is that we are thoroughly corrupt. But, in Christ, God's view of us is thoroughly righteous...because Jesus is righteous.
Our justification is entirely because of Christ and nothing of ourselves.

I would like to respond and soften that just a little without disagreeing. Has anyone ever gotten a picture colored by a 2 year old as a gift? I have one hanging in my office on paper that is starting to turn rather yellow with age. The colorings of a 2 year old will never compare in technical quality with a Picasso or a Monet painting ... that is just reality. However, the picture from my daughter has a special value because it is from my daughter. It’s value is based on our love and not some artistic technical perfection.

Our best efforts are like the scribblings of a 2 year old. However, through Christ, we are now Children of God ... so those scribblings have value not because of our technical perfection, but because of the love and value God places on us. So our unimpressive scribblings get a place of honor on God’s refrigerator.

Without FAITH it is impossible to please God. As Children of God, He loves us more than we can imagine and has prepared good works specifically for us to walk in. That’s what Daddies do.

 

[Andrew]

Doing good is not sad and never will be sad. The wicked will go into eternal punishment; but the righteous, to eternal life. A person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

If you love your Lord you will keep his commandments
I agree MC, scripture says its a combo deal (faith plus works) and you and Menno agree with that, no one here disbelieves that (no one is saying "by works alone!")
Btw 'plus love' should be included in the combo, because faith without love is not faith.
So there we have it, Faith (not alone) but including works and love because loving your God is keeping his commandments and faith without love is not faith, also faith without works is dead.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I would like to respond and soften that just a little without disagreeing. Has anyone ever gotten a picture colored by a 2 year old as a gift? I have one hanging in my office on paper that is starting to turn rather yellow with age. The colorings of a 2 year old will never compare in technical quality with a Picasso or a Monet painting ... that is just reality. However, the picture from my daughter has a special value because it is from my daughter. It’s value is based on our love and not some artistic technical perfection.

Our best efforts are like the scribblings of a 2 year old. However, through Christ, we are now Children of God ... so those scribblings have value not because of our technical perfection, but because of the love and value God places on us. So our unimpressive scribblings get a place of honor on God’s refrigerator.

Without FAITH it is impossible to please God. As Children of God, He loves us more than we can imagine and has prepared good works specifically for us to walk in. That’s what Daddies do.

It isn't faith without works and it isn't good without love. Without faith working in love it is impossible to please God.

 

[MennoSota]

Our justification is not in our works, not in our faith and not in our love. In all areas we fall short of the mark. Our justification is in Christ and Christ alone.

 

[Andrew]

Our justification is not in our works, not in our faith and not in our love. In all areas we fall short of the mark. Our justification is in Christ and Christ alone.

Our salvation is In Christ and Christ alone.
What separates salvation and justification or are they the same? Saying we are not justified by faith works or love is unscriptural im sure

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[MennoSota]

Justification is a legal term that expresses why our actions can be considered good. Since there is nothing good in ourselves our actions, apart from Christ, cannot be justified. Our works, then, are justified because of the faith that God gifted us by his grace. Everything is because of God. God's adoption of us means Jesus atoning sacrifice cleanses us and his gift of faith means he has justified us in Christ so our works are seen as good because of Christ.
All glory be to God. We have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ lives within us. And the life we now live in the flesh, we live by faith in the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself for us. (See Galatians 2:20)
It's all God. None of us.

Our salvation is In Christ and Christ alone.
What separates salvation and justification or are they the same? Saying we are not justified by faith works or love is unscriptural im sure

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[Andrew]

Justification is a legal term that expresses why our actions can be considered good. Since there is nothing good in ourselves our actions, apart from Christ, cannot be justified. Our works, then, are justified because of the faith that God gifted us by his grace. Everything is because of God. God's adoption of us means Jesus atoning sacrifice cleanses us and his gift of faith means he has justified us in Christ so our works are seen as good because of Christ.
All glory be to God. We have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless we live, yet not us, but Christ lives within us. And the life we now live in the flesh, we live by faith in the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself for us. (See Galatians 2:20)
It's all God. None of us.

I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 2:20-21

I like that, "lets not frustrate the grace of God" before grace it was the law that men believed made them righteous but they inturn made the Law of God to no effect and their deeds as filthy rags.
We no longer live by the flesh but by the spirit and by all of Gods grace.

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[MoreCoffee]

If you love your Lord you will keep his commandments
I agree MC, scripture says its a combo deal (faith plus works) and you and Menno agree with that

You know that is not true because every time it is written MennoSota objects to it and changes "good works" to "your own works" as if any human beings can do anything apart from God's grace. It looks like contradiction for its own sake. There can be no agreement when even the most basic concept drawn directly from holy scripture is gainsaid for no reason but to be contrary.

, no one here disbelieves that (no one is saying "by works alone!")
Btw 'plus love' should be included in the combo, because faith without love is not faith.
So there we have it, Faith (not alone) but including works and love because loving your God is keeping his commandments and faith without love is not faith, also faith without works is dead.

 

[MennoSota]

I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Galatians 2:20-21

I like that, "lets not frustrate the grace of God" before grace it was the law that men believed made them righteous but they inturn made the Law of God to no effect and their deeds as filthy rags.
We no longer live by the flesh but by the spirit and by all of Gods grace.

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Those verses are great for Arsenios and MC as well as all of us. They point out that it's all God and none of our selves.

 

[MennoSota]

You know that is not true because every time it is written MennoSota objects to it and changes ("good works" to "your own works" as if any human beings can do anything apart from God's grace. It looks like contradiction for its own sake. There can be no agreement when even the most basic concept drawn directly from holy scripture is gainsaid for no reason but to be contrary.

Your understanding of grace is not what is taught in scripture.
We live and breathe by God's command. The entire creation functions by God's ordination. You turn it into a big, general grace, but you miss God's saving grace and demand that you must work to be justified. It's sad to see you and Arsenios miss this important part of Christianity.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Your understanding of grace is not

Grace is grace. It does not have versions. It is God's gift and comes in many forms. The gifts described in First Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 are "grace gifts" in Greek. The wisdom that the letter of James says is from God is a grace given by God. Salvation is God's gift, a grace, given in Christ. If these things are foreign to the way you think of grace it is because the way you think of grace is erroneous.

what is taught in scripture.
We live and breathe by God's command. The entire creation functions by God's ordination. You turn it into a big, general grace, but you miss God's saving grace and demand that you must work to be justified. It's sad to see you and Arsenios miss this important part of Christianity.

 

[MennoSota]

Grace is grace. It does not have versions. It is God's gift and comes in many forms. The gifts described in First Corinthians chapters 12 through 14 are "grace gifts" in Greek. The wisdom that the letter of James says is from God is a grace given by God. Salvation is God's gift, a grace, given in Christ. If these things are foreign to the way you think of grace it is because the way you think of grace is erroneous.

Yet, you demand that works are how you are justified and that grace is not how you are justified. You make Jesus atonement worthless and vain while you exchange your own work in its place.
Your concept of grace is not grace at all, but your own works. Why? Why are you determined to justify yourself before God by your own self-righteous works when God tells you that your works are worthless. You deny grace and preach works. That is sad.

 

[Arsenios]

Living the faith without self delusions is not sad.

Nor am I...

I live in profound Peace and Joy that has very little to do with the state of affairs of the world or of my physical presence in it... And I am found in stillness and prayer day and night... And God is always closer than near to me...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yet

The good works that Christians do are given to them by God for them to do. Ephesians 2:10. If that bothers you, tough. It's just a fact.

Ephesians 2:7 In showing us such kindness, in Christ Jesus, God willed to reveal, and unfold in the coming ages, the extraordinary riches of his grace. 8 By the grace of God, you have been saved, through faith. This has not come from you: it is God’s gift. 9 This was not the result of your works, so you are not to feel proud. 10 What we are, is God’s work. He has created us, in Christ Jesus, for the good works he has prepared, that we should devote ourselves to them​

The trouble with your posts is that you change "good works" into "your works" as if you didn't understand that there is a difference between the two things. Maybe you don't understand, who can say, but the fact is that "good works" are not "your works" even though they are performed by "you". When you grasp that difference then maybe you'll dump this horrible theology that is pushed in your posts.

, you demand that works are how you are justified and that grace is not how you are justified. You make Jesus atonement worthless and vain while you exchange your own work in its place.
Your concept of grace is not grace at all, but your own works. Why? Why are you determined to justify yourself before God by your own self-righteous works when God tells you that your works are worthless. You deny grace and preach works. That is sad.