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Justification

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popsthebuilder

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Thats odd.

It seems to me that the bible shows works in accord with the law of the Spirit placed on the hearts and minds of the believer as being a means by which to know one's faith and heart.

You seem to be saying something quite contrary to that.
Salvation by FAITH and salvation by WORKS are really not that hard to comprehend.
Can you see any deeply fundamental difference between a drunk who enters a church and repents of his sins and trusts in Jesus and the Cross to grant his forgiveness (FAITH) ... and a drunk who encounters a Jehovah’s Witness, then works to clean up his visible sins, then begins going door to door spreading the good news of the Watchtower in hope of earning one of the 144,000 places in Heaven (WORKS)?

As a small point, hardly worth mentioning among all this discussion, but the Bible generally speaks against Works in relation to the Law (you know, like the Judaisers wanted to preach).

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popsthebuilder

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This is coming from.one who thinks repentance is not even needed.

That's too bad. Jesus said, "Come ye all you heavy laden and find rest. Take my yoke upon you for it is light and you will find rest for your souls."
Repentance need not be arduous at all. Just make the 180 degree turn and lay it at Jesus feet. His grace gives you rest and abundant life. It's not arduous at all.
I feel pity for you, Arsenios. Give up your burden. Jesus doesn't want you to carry it anymore. Let him make it light. It's a glorious thing to be set free.

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MennoSota

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Your presentation does not take away from the fact that we are like filthy rags.
5 "All of us have become like the unclean; all our good deeds are like polluted garments; we have all withered like leaves, blown away by our iniquities."
Sin makes us filthy. We cannot make ourselves good enough by our efforts at pious living. We cannot be good enough for God to consider us justified by our good works. We are only justified by Jesus who takes our place.
Until God justifies us in Christ, our prayers are useless attempts to get the judge to withhold his just and righteous judgment on our sin. He pronounces us guilty. (Filthy rags)

Yes, you did remember it incorrectly. That's okay. It is "righteous deeds" that are said to be "filthy rags" in the translation you've chosen.
Isaiah 64:1 As when fire sets brushwood ablaze and causes water to boil, make the nations know your name, and your enemies tremble. 2 Let them witness your stunning deeds. 3 No one has ever heard or perceived, no eye has ever seen a God besides you who works for those who trust in him. 4 You have confounded those who acted righteously and who joyfully kept your ways in mind. But you are angry with our sins, yet conceal them and we shall be saved. 5 All of us have become like the unclean; all our good deeds are like polluted garments; we have all withered like leaves, blown away by our iniquities. 6 There is no one who calls upon your name, no one who rouses himself to lay hold of you. For you have hidden your face, you have given us up to the power of our evil acts. 7 And yet, Yahweh, you are our Father; we are the clay and you are our potter; we are the work of your hand. 8 Do not let your anger go too far, O Yahweh, or think of our sins forever. See, we all are your people! 9 Your holy cities have become a wilderness, Zion has become a wasteland, Jerusalem a desolation. 10 Our holy and glorious house, where our ancestors used to pray to you, has been razed to the ground, and all that we treasure lies in ruins. 11 Can you still remain unmoved, O Yahweh, before all this? Will you punish us further with your silence?​
The phrase you used is part of a prayer of repentance. Israel sorrows over their sins knowing that their exile was the fruit that their sins produced. So Isaiah offers his perspective on Israel's sins and the pollution of soul and deed created by them. And he remembers in their behalf that Yahweh is their Father and the clay that Yahweh fashions into whatever He wants. He asks for mercy. He pleads for God to remember them and hear his prayer with redeeming action rather than punishing silence. There's a lesson for Christians in Isaiah's prayer, the lesson is that repentance matters and that God the Father hears the prayer of repentant people. It is implied that unrepentant people's prayers will go unheard.
 

MoreCoffee

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A Ch contributor wrote "If OUR works are what justifies, then we are justified by our works - not Jesus'." and saint James the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit "So you see, a man is Justified by works and not by faith alone." The contrast is shocking.
 

Lamb

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A Ch contributor wrote "If OUR works are what justifies, then we are justified by our works - not Jesus'." and saint James the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit "So you see, a man is Justified by works and not by faith alone." The contrast is shocking.

James is not saying salvation comes to you by your works.
 

Lamb

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So what you do is important... What you do matters...

For your Salvation...

What I do for my salvation is trust that Jesus died on the cross and my sins are forgiven. I'm fully covered in that righteousness of the Savior. Aren't you?
 

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Well, as YOU say, it is ALL God, and NOTHING me!

Then I could blame God for my torments!

See why I reject your doctrine?

You have a doctrine of the Salvation of man that rules out man's human will...

Thereby you have a doctrine of man's Salvation that rules out man...

It makes Salvation a farce...

And it is not...

Arsenios

The Gospel never torments.

The Law can because it always accuses.

The Gospel in all its sweetness does not rely on any of our efforts...it relies completely on Jesus Christ as the one who brings us unto salvation.
 

Lamb

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This is coming from.one who thinks repentance is not even needed.



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I haven't seen anyone say Repentance is not needed...but instead we are saying it is not a cause of our justification because we point to Jesus
 

psalms 91

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Not sure about justification as we are justified by faith but as for righteousness I would say that it is necessary and if we are forgiven then we are made righteous
 

popsthebuilder

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He said it specifically.
I haven't seen anyone say Repentance is not needed...but instead we are saying it is not a cause of our justification because we point to Jesus

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MennoSota

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I specifically said, repentance is not required for God to save us. I then pointed out Saul of Tarsus conversion.
I said that repentance is an effect of God's work within us. (God's gracious gift of faith is the cause agent.) Repentance is not the cause agent that moves God to save us.
There is no human work, no self-righteous behavior that causes God to save a person or justifies that person before God. God is NOT impressed with our efforts at self-righteousness.
He said it specifically.

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ImaginaryDay2

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I think it needs to be distinguished that John did not say "Assent to do right morally, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". If that were correct, then we would have a doctrine that says what I do in repentance matters. I can (and anyone can) morally assent to do what is "right" and do it. I can give to charity, I can tithe 10%, I can go home this morning and help mow the lawn (even though my rent covers it and I'm working the midnight shift right now! :D ).

The last thing on my mind in 2001, sitting in a friend's kitchen who was in the hospital with a stroke, reviewing the aftermath of trying to 'save' a drug addicted girlfriend (not my current wife, btw...) - was repenting. It was more feeling sorry for the state I was in. God sent a Pastor anyway, who explained the Gospel of Christ and baptized me without hesitation. In that moment I was justified in the sight of God and witnesses. Even then, I didn't ascribe my baptism to a mere 'observance', but recognized the grace of God extended to me in the act (one of the things the "Oneness Pentecostals" actually got right)

Now, I don't want it to seem that I'm excusing the command of John to "repent", it's quite another matter. Repentance is the first act of obedience which Christ enabled me to do. Now as it was noted, James did say that man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. He did not say that man is justified (only) by works - full stop. It's an important distinction. So whichever way the horse and cart are arranged (faith/works - works/faith), they are inseparable, and both motivated by God working in us, and not by desire to do right morally
 

popsthebuilder

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IT moves us to be saved by GOD though
I specifically said, repentance is not required for God to save us. I then pointed out Saul of Tarsus conversion.
I said that repentance is an effect of God's work within us. (God's gracious gift of faith is the cause agent.) Repentance is not the cause agent that moves God to save us.
There is no human work, no self-righteous behavior that causes God to save a person or justifies that person before God. God is NOT impressed with our efforts at self-righteousness.

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MoreCoffee

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James is not saying salvation comes to you by your works.

Saint James wrote, while inspired by the Holy Spirit, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
 

Albion

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Saint James wrote, while inspired by the Holy Spirit, a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Thats correct. The Faith that saves will function like Faith and produce Works. No Works...No Faith. We got it, James!

If there is any uncertainty remaining about that point, the very next verse in this passage from James (2:25) is given as an example. It concerns Rahab, the prostitute, who SHOWED her Faith by her acts.
 

MoreCoffee

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I think it needs to be distinguished that John did not say "Assent to do right morally, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand". If that were correct, then we would have a doctrine that says what I do in repentance matters. I can (and anyone can) morally assent to do what is "right" and do it. I can give to charity, I can tithe 10%, I can go home this morning and help mow the lawn (even though my rent covers it and I'm working the midnight shift right now! :D ).

The last thing on my mind in 2001, sitting in a friend's kitchen who was in the hospital with a stroke, reviewing the aftermath of trying to 'save' a drug addicted girlfriend (not my current wife, btw...) - was repenting. It was more feeling sorry for the state I was in. God sent a Pastor anyway, who explained the Gospel of Christ and baptized me without hesitation. In that moment I was justified in the sight of God and witnesses. Even then, I didn't ascribe my baptism to a mere 'observance', but recognized the grace of God extended to me in the act (one of the things the "Oneness Pentecostals" actually got right)

Now, I don't want it to seem that I'm excusing the command of John to "repent", it's quite another matter. Repentance is the first act of obedience which Christ enabled me to do. Now as it was noted, James did say that man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. He did not say that man is justified (only) by works - full stop. It's an important distinction. So whichever way the horse and cart are arranged (faith/works - works/faith), they are inseparable, and both motivated by God working in us, and not by desire to do right morally

Saint James wrote "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" which is of great significance because saint James was fighting against a perversion of the gospel that apparently asserted that once one believes one is justified without regard to how one lives. Saint James expressed it in these words too "be a doer of the word and not a hearer only".

Assent to moral good - such as thinking about giving to a charity or thinking about helping somebody in distress is worthless unless the thinking becomes doing. Saint James points this out by writing
"James 1:22 Be doers of the word, and not just hearers, lest you deceive yourselves. 23 The hearer, who does not become a doer, is like that one, who looked at himself in the mirror; 24 he looked, and then promptly forgot what he was like. 25 But those who fix their gaze on the perfect law of freedom, and hold onto it, not listening and then forgetting, but acting on it, will find blessing on their deeds."​
and also in these words
"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead. 18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear! 20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active along with his deeds and it became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God."​
Beliefs that were heresy in saint James' day are still heresy today. And God preserved saint James' letter and saw to it that it was included in the canonical books of the new testament so that we can see what manner of heresy came into the world within the life times of the twelve apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ and be warned not to accept them. Faith without works is dead it cannot do anything least of all save anybody.
 

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As an original Protestant (Lutheran) I believe I am entirely justified because of Christ and entirely covered in His righteousness.

It seems that not all Christians have that belief. What I mean by this is that because I have faith in Jesus that I am seen by God as He sees His Son. I am holy because I am covered by Christ. Others believe that they are not yet holy and have to be made holy by works instead of already being holy because of coverage of Christ by faith. Does everyone see the difference in those two types of belief systems?
 

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As an original Protestant (Lutheran) I believe I am entirely justified because of Christ and entirely covered in His righteousness.

You may believe whatever you like but it will not alter what is written in the holy scriptures.
 

Josiah

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A Ch contributor wrote "If OUR works are what justifies, then we are justified by our works - not Jesus'." and saint James the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit "So you see, a man is Justified by works and not by faith alone." The contrast is shocking.

They are a perfect match. As I've posted many times before, terms like "salvation" "conversion" "justification" "sanctification" (and more) are used variously in Scripture - we need to look to the context to see what meaning is being used. This is also why I have stressed repeatedly that for 500 years, Lutherans have always been EXTREMELY careful to define EXACTLY what we mean by "Justification." This was so that it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the RC Denomination and RC theologians to misunderstand and of course it/they did not when they declared it apostate heresy to hold that Jesus is the Savior in Justification. The RCC knew EXACTLY what Lutherans mean by that (see posts 2, 3 and 8) - we mean John 3:16.


The Book of James and Narrow Justification:


1. The Book of James is written to Christians, to those ALREADY JUSTIFIED - those with the divine Gifts of life, faith and the Holy Spirit. The "you" here, the "brothers and sisters" here all prove he is speaking to the Justified. IF this was written to pagans, then you MIGHT have a point - James is repudiating Christianity and declaring Jesus an irrelevant joke. But James wrote this to CHRISTIANS with those Gifts, not pagans denouncing those gifts. You can't use this verse to repudiate Christianity and denounce the Gospel (Protestants are amazed that Catholics would WANT to). And it is obvious that James is using the term "justification" in a broader sense than Lutherans do in systemmatic theology - to speak to the entire issue of soteriology. What some Catholics do is rip this verse ENTIRELY from context, impose a certain definition to it, and then use it to repudiate Christianity and denounce the Gospel of Jesus as the Savior. Unfortunate at best.


2. As we read the whole Book of James, it is obvious the book is not only addressed to Christians (thus, those already justified in the Lutheran sense.... already with the gifts of life, faith and the Holy Spirit), and it is obvious the Book is speaking to ALL the life of a Christian (not even limited to soteriology, and certainly not limited to Justification narrow). James is saying that HAVING life is not the end of everything, what God desires, what God calls, what God empowers is more than JUST a changed relationship with God. To use a physical example, being conceived is not the "end all" of being a human - we are to live, to grow, to mature, to DO. It would be one thing if James was speaking of how the Dead gain life.... how one BECOMES a Christian, but he is obviously not: he is speaking to the Justified (in the narrow sense), in very practical terms, about our need to be all God desires and calls us to be. To use this to repudiate Christianity and make Jesus an irrelevant joke, one must do as you did: Rip this entirely out of context, define the word in a way it obviously is not meant, and insist that this is about the Dead coming to Life. It's not. As anyone recognizes if they actually read the book.


3. There's an old Protestant proverb of "Faith alone justifies but faith is never alone." While I'm a bit uncomfortable with the proverb, there is a point here. EVEN if the faith is genuine (and thus Justification), it is not to be "alone." "Faith is busy with loving deeds" (Luther). As I've written repeatedly here, there are MANY things associated with the divine GIFTS of life, faith and justification. As I've written, theologically anyway, justification doesn't exist apart from repentance (for example) - but it is silly and unbiblical to insist that THEREFORE our good work of repentance is what causes us to have life, faith and justification. One may say that generally speaking, human physical life involves breathing but it owuld be silly to dogmatically insist that it is our breathing that caused our conception (empowered by God or otherwise) - association does not imply causation (Catholics SHOULD have learned that.... but there seems to be this desire to repudiate Christianity that is HARD to understand).
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4. Many would argue that James actually is speaking of just the CLAIM of faith.... speaking of just chanting the words "Jesus is the Savior" as if that chant in and of itself is a good work that results in a dead one gaining life, faith and justification. James is stressing the whole of the Christian LIFE. That James is saying what Luther did: Faith ( that is not just a meaningless chant) is "busy with loving deeds." Or to use the analogy: if a human isn't breathing, we might wonder whether they have the Gift of life. But again, it's silly to insist that the person breathing is the cause of their conception. But sound to say that generally, one who is alive does breathe.


It is simply not possible to actually READ the Book and conclude what you do: That Christianity is a lie, the Gospel wrong and Christ irrelevant since the Dead give themselves life, faith and justification because of the works that the Dead did (making Jesus irrelevant, a joke.... and wrong that Jesus saves us).



- Josiah
 
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ImaginaryDay2

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What some Catholics do is rip this verse ENTIRELY from context, impose a certain definition to it, and then use it to repudiate Christianity and denounce the Gospel of Jesus as the Savior.

I keep seeing this claim, but I've nowhere seen that "some Catholics" do any such thing. Maybe you can help me...?
 
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