Justification

[MennoSota]

It had nothing to do with justification, however.
God justifies us by his gracious choice of adoption and Jesus atonement for our sins.
It's all God's work. Nothing we do will ever justify us before God. How can rebelliousness be justified? We cannot argue our way out of our corrupt nature.

See Menno, they (Catholics) agree with your understanding
Group hug everyone!

*closes thread

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[MennoSota]

Repentance is not a requirement for God's justification.
God saved and justified Saul of Tarsus first. The effect was Saul repenting.
When I read atpollard's presentation of Baptist belief, it was this prerequisite of repentance that stands out because repentance would therefore be a work of man that was the cause which effected God so that He saved that person. It is the other way around. God saves the person, then they repent.

 

[Andrew]

It had nothing to do with justification, however.
God justifies us by his gracious choice of adoption and Jesus atonement for our sins.
It's all God's work. Nothing we do will ever justify us before God. How can rebelliousness be justified? We cannot argue our way out of our corrupt nature.

I agree, cart before the horse.

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[MoreCoffee]

I agree, cart before the horse.

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Saint James did that sort of thing, putting works before faith in Justification, quite irritating for a theology that wants it the other way around. James 2:21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. But the holy scriptures are like that, they overthrow strongholds and put to shame worldly wise sayings. Still, it is the word of the Lord, inspired and true, and despite every effort to twist it into saying the opposite of what is written and every effort to make it mean something that it doesn't the word of the Lord remains a sure foundation and a bulwark against errors of every kind. I dare to say that I like it. I like what saint James the bother of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote; a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

 

[Albion]

Folks, there is no cart and no horse to get out of order in the Epistle of James.

His message is clear-cut. Faith saves...but it takes REAL Faith, which produces Works, not some momentary brainstorm or being caught up in the moment after hearing some preacher preach, or the mere claim of having been converted.

Works are the evidence and the fruit of a true Faith.

 

[MennoSota]

No he didn't. James never puts works before faith. James tells us that the evidence of faith is our works. For example, Rahab had faith. The evidence of her faith is in tying the red ribbon to her window and having all her family stay at her house when the walls of Jericho fell.

Saint James did that sort of thing, putting works before faith in Justification, quite irritating for a theology that wants it the other way around. James 2:21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. But the holy scriptures are like that, they overthrow strongholds and put to shame worldly wise sayings. Still, it is the word of the Lord, inspired and true, and despite every effort to twist it into saying the opposite of what is written and every effort to make it mean something that it doesn't the word of the Lord remains a sure foundation and a bulwark against errors of every kind. I dare to say that I like it. I like what saint James the bother of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote; a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

 

[MennoSota]

Right.
God's gift of faith is provided by God. Our actions display this God given gift. It does not function in reverse order. Therefore any statement that we are justified by our works apart from faith first being given is simply wrong.

Folks, there is no cart and no horse to get out of order in the Epistle of James.

His message is clear-cut. Faith saves...but it takes REAL Faith, which produces Works, not some momentary brainstorm or being caught up in the moment after hearing some preacher preach, or the mere claim of having been converted.

Works are the evidence and the fruit of a true Faith.

 

[Andrew]

Saint James did that sort of thing, putting works before faith in Justification, quite irritating for a theology that wants it the other way around. James 2:21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. But the holy scriptures are like that, they overthrow strongholds and put to shame worldly wise sayings. Still, it is the word of the Lord, inspired and true, and despite every effort to twist it into saying the opposite of what is written and every effort to make it mean something that it doesn't the word of the Lord remains a sure foundation and a bulwark against errors of every kind. I dare to say that I like it. I like what saint James the bother of the Lord Jesus Christ wrote; a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

I have a book called "faith withouts works is dead" and its all based on the teachings of James. Abraham had faith first and his works did prove that but I consider justification a NT belief in relation to why Christ did what he did and died the way he died, in respects to the Savior and his plan for eternal salvation one is justified by faith/belief in Jesus Christ for everlasting life. works are confirmation of justification and is something a believer simply can't help but do otherwise your faith is dead, its action, like the acts of the apostles, they were called to do these things BUT Judas failed to do these works which CONFIRMS his disbelief and lack of faith.
Indeed faith without works is dead but its not for anyone to know but you and God, 'lest a man boast'... we do these actions but we dont let our left hand know what our right hand is doing, probably why Jesus would heal a sick man and tell him not to go about bragging on him.
I just don't think this topic should be a debate among believers, Menno seems to be indicating that you have not accepted faith and you are unjust because you are relying on works :/ he is not one to judge your faith. I believe you have absolute faith and thats why you ACT IN that faith, but if you were to BOAST about every good deed you do i.e. in a blog or something, then you are obviously out to prove to MAN that you are justified. Just because we commune together on this website does not mean we have faith and proves nothing, whether we do or not is not up to anyone else on this board but yourself and God.
I haven't read a single boastful thread here where one demands attention from others to focus and meditate on his good deeds and how to be a good worksman by his example. Our only example is Jesus Christ and we are to be like him, not as his disciples, not like his apostles, but like him.
They were his worksmen and so they were called to do so.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Folks, there is no cart and no horse to get out of order in the Epistle of James.

His message is clear-cut. Faith saves...but it takes REAL Faith, which produces Works, not some momentary brainstorm or being caught up in the moment after hearing some preacher preach, or the mere claim of having been converted.

Works are the evidence and the fruit of a true Faith.

No cart and no horse. True enough. But why do you insist that faith produces works if there is no implied order - no cart and horse arrangement? Still, saint James says a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. It's a nice piece of inspired revelation. Not troubling but interesting. A person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

 

[Andrew]

No cart and no horse. True enough. But why do you insist that faith produces works if there is no implied order - no cart and horse arrangement? Still, saint James says a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. It's a nice piece of inspired revelation. Not troubling but interesting. A person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

If we do Gods will we must act on them, if not our faith is dead, our actions justify us and not faith alone. So what is faith without action? According to scripture it isn't faith at all. Faith is action and action is faith?

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[Arsenios]

It had nothing to do with justification, however.
God justifies us by his gracious choice of adoption and Jesus atonement for our sins.
It's all God's work. Nothing we do will ever justify us before God. How can rebelliousness be justified? We cannot argue our way out of our corrupt nature.

Yes,
Man repents...
and...
God justifies...

No question...

No repentance justifies us before God...
And...
God does not repent for us...

Adoption is by entry into Christ to become a member of His Body...

"As many as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ..."

Therefore: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

Christ's very words, you know...

Do you believe Him?

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance is not a requirement for God's justification.

Christ disagrees: "Repent, for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!"

God saved and justified Saul of Tarsus first.

Are you re-writing the Bible now??
Where does the Bible say what your addition to the Bible envenomates?

The effect was Saul repenting.

The effect was blindness and fasting and visions...

And being Baptized into Christ by Ananias who filled Saul with the Holy Spirit...

But all this only AFTER healing Saul of his blindedness...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Faith saves... REAL Faith produces Works,

The untold secret that seems lost in the west is that the Faith which Christ gave to His Apostles is THE Great Work of man... Coming straight from Geneses in a figure:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art,
and unto dust shalt thou return.

Christ is the Bread of Life...

not some momentary brainstorm or being caught up in the moment after hearing some preacher preach, or the mere claim of having been converted.

Works are the evidence and the fruit of a true Faith.

The work of repentance is obedience to the Gospel of Christ...

Not all who hear it obey what they hear...

Within man in this life is the power to obey or not...

And demonic powers devour the scattering of the seed on hardened or shallow or unwatered soil...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

No cart and no horse. True enough. But why do you insist that faith produces works if there is no implied order - no cart and horse arrangement?

Maybe that old saying wasn't the most appropriate one to use. The point was that Faith and Works must necessarily go together. You cannot do Works pleasing to God if you have not Faith and, likewise, you cannot have Faith and fail to produce Works.

Still, saint James says a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

That's correct. The sticking point is the meaning of "alone" there. No, Faith is not all alone. Works will necessarily be in evidence with any person who has true Faith. However, what justifies is Faith, period. The Works that Faith produces do not enhance or increase our chances of being saved. By the way, this
does not mean that our good Works will not be rewarded in Heaven, just that they do not determine whether or not we get there!

 

[MoreCoffee]

Maybe that old saying wasn't the most appropriate one to use. The point was that Faith and Works must necessarily go together. You cannot do Works pleasing to God if you have not Faith and, likewise, you cannot have Faith and fail to produce Works.



That's correct. The sticking point is the meaning of "alone" there. No, Faith is not all alone. Works will necessarily be in evidence with any person who has true Faith. However, what justifies is Faith, period. The Works that Faith produces do not enhance or increase our chances of being saved. By the way, this
does not mean that our good Works will not be rewarded in Heaven, just that they do not determine whether or not we get there!

You say "what justifies is faith, period" I presume that means "faith without anything else" but you can correct me if that is not what you mean. The idiom "period" is rather foreign to me. But if you mean that faith without anything else justifies how is it that saint James says "Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? ... So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.". Faith that works appears to be the foundation upon which justification is built.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith saves... REAL Faith produces Works,

The untold secret that seems lost in the west is that the Faith which Christ gave to His Apostles is THE Great Work of man... Coming straight from Geneses in a figure:

Genesis 3:19
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread,
till thou return unto the ground;
for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art,
and unto dust shalt thou return.

Christ is the Bread of Life...

not some momentary brainstorm or being caught up in the moment after hearing some preacher preach, or the mere claim of having been converted.

Works are the evidence and the fruit of a true Faith.

The work of repentance is obedience to the Gospel of Christ...

Not all who hear it obey what they hear...

Within man in this life is the power to obey or not...

And demonic powers devour the scattering of the seed on hardened or shallow or unwatered soil...

Arsenios

I may be wrong but maybe Albion is thinking of "works" as a purely human activity quite apart from grace. Maybe you are using the same word with significantly different meanings.

 

[Josiah]

Do you understand ANY of HOW God does what He does?

Lutherans leave all that to MYSTERY (the fave word of Lutheran theologians, lol)..... BUT this we affirm (boldly): Jesus is the Savior. Thus saving (in this sense of narrow justification) is something JESUS does (and ergo, we don't). We reject the dogmas of 1) Jesus saves no one but rather makes it possible for each self to save self, 2) Jesus saves no one but the Roman Church Church avails each of all the supernatural power necessary for each self to save self, 3) Jesus saves no one but each saves self by turning their hearts to God, surrendering their spirit to God and giving self spiritual life. And reject that Jesus is PART Savior - He doing the part that actually saves no one and is ineffectual, self doing the part that actually accomplishes something and results in self eventually being in heaven. We reject any and all forms of synergism and Pelagianism in Justification (narrow).

Again, HOW this justification is achieved and applied to an individual is a matter of mystery - but we affirm that it is all wrapped up in the works of JESUS (not self) - HIS incarnation, HIS death on the Cross, HIS resurrection.... HIS perfect life, HIS death, His resurrection victory over sin, death and the power of the devil. And that the means by which it is individually apprehended is faith (reliance) which is "the gift of God lest anyone should boast." Thus, we affirm Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide (as ONE inseparable affirmation): For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) has everlasting life. (A wise man said that, Luther just agreed). This view was condemned and anathematized as apostate heresy by the RCC after decades of very careful study, talks with Luther and the "Lutheran Fathers" and the readings of many Lutheran works - all of which STRESSED how Lutherans define the term "Justification." Thus, unless the Catholic position is also apostate heresy, the Catholic position on this MUST be radically and substantially different than the Lutheran view.

Of course, even more than Catholicism, Lutheranism stresses that CHRISTIANS (those justified) are called to important things (morality equal to God, love equal to God, ministry/service equal to God, etc.) and since Christians therefore have the Holy Spirit, they have divine direction and power to grow in such. This, which is what we call Sanctification, is inseparable with justification but not to be confused with it. Catholicism never mentioned this aspect of the Lutheran teaching in soteriology but I believe there is no significant difference in our views on this. The RCC was very careful to say Lutheranism is anathematized for its view on JUSTIFICATION (saying nothing about our view of Sanctification). It's the idea of Jesus as the Savior that was the enormous problem for Catholicism.

You have my attention, but then you go and introduce a technical definition of Salvation as Justification narrowly understood...

... which is why it's known as "narrow" Justification and Sanctification, lol. As I've pointed out dozens of times in this thread alone (and also in the several other threads at CH on this topic), we get nowhere until we understand the terminology. Which is why Luther (and the "Lutheran Fathers") went to such enormous lengths to be ABSOLUTELY CLEAR what Lutherans mean by the terms "Justification" and "Sanctification" - so that the Catholic Church understood EXACTLY and PRECISELY what Lutherans were saying (see posts 2, 3 and 8). After decades of studying this by the leading, most learned Catholic scholars of the day, they declared the Lutheran view "apostate heresy". MoreCoffee has tried (for years) to suggest that actually the Lutheran positiion IS the Catholic one but that the Catholic one is the opposite of the Lutheran one and that the Lutheran one is apostate heresy but is correct but wrong. Such is modern Catholicism. But yes, Lutherans for 500 years have been extremely careful to note EXACTLY how we are defining our terms so that it is impossible to be misunderstood. And we don't feel we were: the RCC anathamatized the Lutheran stance that Jesus is the Savior (not self in any way or degree) in JUSTIFICATION (NARROW) because it held and holds that that stance IS apostate heresy - even if we find Catholics saying exactly the same thing (even in the very same words) that Lutherans do, and of course the opposite of it too since it's heresy. Such is Catholicism.

But then you go on to describe the transformation of a person who is being transformed

Just as you and MoreCoffee have done. What a CHRISTIAN is called to do, what happens via the Life the Holy Spirit GAVE. We essentially agree on the topic of Sanctification, which is why the RCC is so careful to say the disagreement is in JUSTICATION.

So here may I ask you this?:
What is the difference between the Call of God
and the Justification of God?

One is the call of God. The other is the action of God.

Because you are describing an assortment of Spiritual events that would seem to reflect God's Great Mercy on those who love Him who are not in the Communion of the Apostolic Faith

True. Unbelievers are not in the "Communion of Saints" and not a part of the "one, holy, catholic church." Only believers are.

True. Those who are dead are dead and thus not among the living.

True. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and Giver of Life (not the dead for the dead). The Holy Spirit is not an Offerer of life.

True. Jesus is the Savior. Thus, a dead individual is not.

True. God has MERCY on us - even while were were ENEMIES and DEAD in our trespasses. Mercy is receiving what we do not deserve. "Not because of works lest any should have cause to boast" "The gift of God." "The inheritance of God."

I live in a simplicity of understanding... Man enters into repentance when God Calls him... And God Justifies the man who is repenting, healing him from his infirmities that give him the need to live a repentant life... Then God Glorifies the man who has repented unto blood, and in this, the man will do works as did Christ, and perhaps even more than these...

So man repents, and God Saves...

The unregenerate cannot and never do repent. They reject and deny God, they have no relationship to God. They can feel remorse (just as your dog can) but that's not repentance. We are not justified by repentance (making Jesus irrelevant since self saves self but what self does for God).

Yes, LOTS of things are associated with Justification (repentance among them) but association does not imply causation. And remember, the word "kai' does not mandate chronological sequence.

One's Christian life is the struggle to keep one's self from sin, and in this, God is Faithful and will raise him up on the last day... And some He Glorifies in this life...

Yes! Absolutely! Just as I've posted over and over and over. Again, there is no significant difference of theology in Sanctification (and the Catholic Church is VERY careful to not indicate that there is). The CHRISTIANS LIFE is something a Christian HAS. The Holy Spirit is the Lord and GIVER of Life, Lutherans believe.

So in my simple understanding, Christians live in the struggle of keeping the Faith and purity we are given in Baptism - A struggle that we continue in unto the end of our lives, keeping vigil in ourselves against sin's incursions...

No one has disagreed.... (well, a tiny number of Calvinists would). But we are way off topic, hijacking this thread.

And should we turn back to sin, God will withdraw that justification...

We're WAY off topic..... and IMO the wording of that is a horrible mixture of Law and Gospel.... but yes, Lutherans agree we can fall from faith and thus no longer be Justified. But that's another matter for another thread. MC was very careful to make this about JUSTIFICATION (not Sanctification) which is the area where the RCC declares Lutheranism to be apostate heresy (necessitating splitting the RCC essentially in half over). We essentially agree on that matter of CHRISTIANS - our lives as CHRISTIANS, it's the becoming part where we are opposites.

But you come along and say that COMING to spiritual life,
BECOMING a child of God,
the RECEIVING of the gift of faith,
having a CHANGED relationship with God,
and the personal COMING of the Holy Spirit

Yup, that's the radical disagreement. The issue of the Reformation. The point on which the RCC split itself. The point that the RCC declared Lutheranism to be apostate heresy.

We DID (and DO) have other disagreements: Purgatory, Transubstantiation (rather than Real Presense), the Infallibility of the Roman Pontiff for example. But in truth, many disagreed with the RCC back then on those and those were not the "deal breakers." The issue the RCC got all hot and bothered about was JUSTIFICATION - the Lutheran teaching concerning the COMING to spiritual life, BECOMING a child of God, the RECEIVING of the gift of faith, having a CHANGED relationship with God, and the personal COMING of the Holy Spirit. They knew EXACTLY what Lutherans mean by these things...... they declared them to be apostate heresy (and split the Roman Church over this).... and anathematized it.

Thank you for taking the time to lay it out...

Welcome.




Blessings



- Josiah



.

 

[MennoSota]

I'm not judging MC as a person. I'm stating that Roman church teaching regarding the gospel is not compatible with the Bible. RC teaching is works oriented and misunderstands grace so that grace is equal to works rather than being unmerited favor.
MC is focused on his churches teaching (this seems to be quite common in the CH) with little focus or concern on what the Bible teaches. He assumes that the church position is biblical. Pedrito points this out quite often as he suggests letting scripture teach, even if it ruins our denominational narrative.
What does the Bible share about our justification before God?

I have a book called "faith withouts works is dead" and its all based on the teachings of James. Abraham had faith first and his works did prove that but I consider justification a NT belief in relation to why Christ did what he did and died the way he died, in respects to the Savior and his plan for eternal salvation one is justified by faith/belief in Jesus Christ for everlasting life. works are confirmation of justification and is something a believer simply can't help but do otherwise your faith is dead, its action, like the acts of the apostles, they were called to do these things BUT Judas failed to do these works which CONFIRMS his disbelief and lack of faith.
Indeed faith without works is dead but its not for anyone to know but you and God, 'lest a man boast'... we do these actions but we dont let our left hand know what our right hand is doing, probably why Jesus would heal a sick man and tell him not to go about bragging on him.
I just don't think this topic should be a debate among believers, Menno seems to be indicating that you have not accepted faith and you are unjust because you are relying on works :/ he is not one to judge your faith. I believe you have absolute faith and thats why you ACT IN that faith, but if you were to BOAST about every good deed you do i.e. in a blog or something, then you are obviously out to prove to MAN that you are justified. Just because we commune together on this website does not mean we have faith and proves nothing, whether we do or not is not up to anyone else on this board but yourself and God.
I haven't read a single boastful thread here where one demands attention from others to focus and meditate on his good deeds and how to be a good worksman by his example. Our only example is Jesus Christ and we are to be like him, not as his disciples, not like his apostles, but like him.
They were his worksmen and so they were called to do so.

 

[Andrew]

Can we at least define 'works'?
To me it's 'action'. In faith you are called to do what is 'right' opposed to wrong. If Gods will is good then you should act on his good will other than being without conviction and going against God by doing what's wrong.
Anyone can act good and brag about it, but faith changes all that, at least real faith does. If you want to call yourself Christian but steal from your enemy you are a wolf in sheeps clothing. True belief is faith and when you mess up you should feel a pain in your heart that corrects you, thats conviction and thats the love of God keeping you in his good will.
Mans heart is sinful, so being nice and calling yourself Christian without faith is dead, true faith is not being 'nice' but acting in Gods good will, when upset be angry and sin not.

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[Andrew]

I'm not judging MC as a person. I'm stating that Roman church teaching regarding the gospel is not compatible with the Bible. RC teaching is works oriented and misunderstands grace so that grace is equal to works rather than being unmerited favor.
MC is focused on his churches teaching (this seems to be quite common in the CH) with little focus or concern on what the Bible teaches. He assumes that the church position is biblical. Pedrito points this out quite often as he suggests letting scripture teach, even if it ruins our denominational narrative.
What does the Bible share about our justification before God?

Every church has a degree of dogma, that's why even as church goers we should be able to divide and discern scriptures for ourselves because you cannot walk into a church and come out saved you have to do your homework. MC can't possibly agree with absolutely everything that every catholic priest or pope has ever said but he has the right to discern what's right and wrong in their teachings, unless he is completely dependant on every word that comes out of the mouth of men... I don't think thats the case with him but yes sadly it is the case for many in the RCC just as in other churches. MC has confirmed well with your understanding on works and justification as far as im concerned I see no reason for debate. We just get lost in translation or misunderstand eachother after all we are human.

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