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Justification

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Albion

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Faith that works appears to be the foundation upon which justification is built.
"Foundation" there suggests to me an intent to equivocate, but, that aside, "Faith that works" is exactly what we have been talking about.
 

Albion

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Lamb

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I think the separation comes down to...

Are you justified completely by Jesus (which means forgiveness won at the cross now covers you...you have His righteousness)?

or

Are you justified by Jesus and then your works?
 

Josiah

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I think the separation comes down to...

Are you justified completely by Jesus (which means forgiveness won at the cross now covers you...you have His righteousness)?

or

Are you justified by Jesus and then your works?


Good insight.... Or is it simply as we Catholics were taught, "Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE" "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you must get yourself through it by what you do." "God helps those who help themselve?."


IMO, what we often see in popular Catholicism (and I suspect was the norm in Catholicism 500 years ago) is a jumbled, mixed up, confused, entanglement of Law and Gospel, Sanctification and Justification, man and God..... so that CORRECT things in one area are imputed to other areas where they are not only wrong but very destructive of Christianity and the Gospel. Catholics will OFTEN say very true, very biblical, very sound things about Sanctification (where we're all pretty much in agreement) but export all that to a totally different subject - Justification (where Jesus is thus rendered into a mere Helper or Possibility-Maker if not simply irrelevant). WHEN a Catholic untangle things - they CAN get it right (and be amazingly Lutheran!!! I've heard and read this many times - making you wonder about how Lutheranism on this can be apostate heresy of the worse kind but verbatim identical to what some Catholics sometimes present.... again, one of the most solidly, distinctive Lutheran sermons I've EVER heard on this topic was from a Catholic priest at a Funeral Mass!); problem is, they are SO completely confused by the entangled, mixed up, MESS they are taught that they often end up in radical, synergistic Pelagianism (which the RCC officially condemns, but then it also condemns the condemnation of it, lol).

IMO, there is NOTHING in the universe where we need to be more clear.... and nothing where most Catholics are less clear, more confused. Nonetheless, in MY humble belief, the Gospel is still there (buried, entangled, mixed up but there) - in the lectionary, in the liturgy, in some of the hymns. And His Word does not return to Him void. IF a Catholic will hang in there long enough, generally the Catholic MESS can be untangled.... and on this topic, there's a Lutheran (and the Catholic is now wondering why the RCC condemns it as apostate heresy!).



Blessings on your Easter season....


- Josiah
 

Andrew

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Can someone give an example of faith without works?

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Josiah

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Can someone give an example of faith without works?

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The Thief on the Cross. Perhaps John the Baptist still in his mother's womb. Of course, they did express their faith.

But yes, the old Protestant proverb comes to mind, "Faith alone saves but faith is never alone." Actually, Justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. But yes, that faith is "an active, busy thing revealing itself in loving deeds for our neighbor" (to quote Martin Luther).

If OUR works are what justifies, then we are justified by our works - not Jesus'. And if the Savior is me, then the Savior is not Jesus. Yes, everyone agrees that it's WORKS that results in justification: the question is WHOSE? Jesus' or Self? Is the Savior the one we see on the Cross or in the mirror? Is it OUR works that result in justification (Life) so that self is the giver of life (not the Holy Spirit)? Is it OUR works that results in justification so that Jesus' life, death and resurrection are "in vain" as the Bible puts it? Which is it?
 

Andrew

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The Thief on the Cross. Perhaps John the Baptist still in his mother's womb. Of course, they did express their faith.

But yes, the old Protestant proverb comes to mind, "Faith alone saves but faith is never alone." Actually, Justification (narrow) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. But yes, that faith is "an active, busy thing revealing itself in loving deeds for our neighbor" (to quote Martin Luther).

If OUR works are what justifies, then we are justified by our works - not Jesus'. And if the Savior is me, then the Savior is not Jesus. Yes, everyone agrees that it's WORKS that results in justification: the question is WHOSE? Jesus' or Self? Is the Savior the one we see on the Cross or in the mirror? Is it OUR works that result in justification (Life) so that self is the giver of life (not the Holy Spirit)? Is it OUR works that results in justification so that Jesus' life, death and resurrection are "in vain" as the Bible puts it? Which is it?
Well a person who believed they could save themselves obviously would have nothing to do with Christianity or the bible nor would want to hear about it, they would have to generate a whole idea of heaven all together to be saved from hell. Do you see the RCC as a bunch of buddhist heathens?
My father seriously believes that there is no salvation outside the RCC but also he never attends so it's hard for me to tag "works only" on him lol
btw I like those quotes you mentioned

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atpollard

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Salvation by FAITH and salvation by WORKS are really not that hard to comprehend.
Can you see any deeply fundamental difference between a drunk who enters a church and repents of his sins and trusts in Jesus and the Cross to grant his forgiveness (FAITH) ... and a drunk who encounters a Jehovah’s Witness, then works to clean up his visible sins, then begins going door to door spreading the good news of the Watchtower in hope of earning one of the 144,000 places in Heaven (WORKS)?

As a small point, hardly worth mentioning among all this discussion, but the Bible generally speaks against Works in relation to the Law (you know, like the Judaisers wanted to preach).
 

MoreCoffee

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I think the separation comes down to...

Are you justified completely by Jesus (which means forgiveness won at the cross now covers you...you have His righteousness)?

or

Are you justified by Jesus and then your works?

What your post proposes is not "the separation" it's just the dilemma created by Lutheran vocabulary & theology. What is at at stake is what saint James wrote - Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? ... So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. - a person is made righteous by works and not by beliefs alone.

You are made just both by what you believe and by what you do. You are justified both by what you believe and by what you do. You are justified both by faith and by works.
 

MennoSota

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You are mishandling the word of God, MC. The context of James 2 is not about our justification before God. It is about how faith is expressed in actuality on this earth.
Once again, I submit that if our works justified us before God, then there was no reason for Christ Jesus death and resurrection.

James 2:10-26
[10]For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God’s laws.
[11]For the same God who said, “You must not commit adultery,” also said, “You must not murder.” So if you murder someone but do not commit adultery, you have still broken the law.
[12]So whatever you say or whatever you do, remember that you will be judged by the law that sets you free.
[13]There will be no mercy for those who have not shown mercy to others. But if you have been merciful, God will be merciful when he judges you.
[14]What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone?
[15]Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing,
[16]and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?
[17]So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.
[18]Now someone may argue, “Some people have faith; others have good deeds.” But I say, “How can you show me your faith if you don’t have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds.”
[19]You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
[20]How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
[21]Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
[22]You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.
[23]And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God.
[24]So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
[25]Rahab the prostitute is another example. She was shown to be right with God by her actions when she hid those messengers and sent them safely away by a different road.
[26]Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.
What your post proposes is not "the separation" it's just the dilemma created by Lutheran vocabulary & theology. What is at at stake is what saint James wrote - Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? ... So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. - a person is made righteous by works and not by beliefs alone.

You are made just both by what you believe and by what you do. You are justified both by what you believe and by what you do. You are justified both by faith and by works.
 

MoreCoffee

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Do you reckon that repentance is a work?
 

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Before or after God gifts you faith?
Do you reckon that repentance is a work?
Repentance before faith is just remorse with no ability to change. (We are still dead in our trespasses and sins.)
Repentance after faith is a natural effect of faith. It is one of the many works that faith produces.
Only God can gift you faith. You cannot conjure it up by your own willpower.
 

MennoSota

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That's too bad. Jesus said, "Come ye all you heavy laden and find rest. Take my yoke upon you for it is light and you will find rest for your souls."
Repentance need not be arduous at all. Just make the 180 degree turn and lay it at Jesus feet. His grace gives you rest and abundant life. It's not arduous at all.
I feel pity for you, Arsenios. Give up your burden. Jesus doesn't want you to carry it anymore. Let him make it light. It's a glorious thing to be set free.
It is definitely a labor...
It is an arduous labor...

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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Holy scripture says "repent and believe" which may imply that repentance precedes faith.
 

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It's not saying Repent then believe.

That is correct. Maybe it uses "and" because the two things are inseparable and neither precedes the other; that is why I pointed it out, but some here like to argue that "believe and be baptised" must mean that faith comes before baptism so why not point to "repent and believe" as using a similar model? It will be interesting to see how they argue their case - can they do so and remain consistent with their explanation of 'and' in their theology of baptism?
 

psalms 91

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What I do know that when I was saved I repented as I had a great sorrow about me and as I think about it others that I have seen I believe also repented at the time of salvation so yes I do believe that they go together
 

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What I do know that when I was saved I repented as I had a great sorrow about me and as I think about it others that I have seen I believe also repented at the time of salvation so yes I do believe that they go together

Sorrow, perhaps godly sorrow, usually precedes conscious knowledge of the gospel message in christian experience.
 
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