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Justification

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MennoSota

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I am amazed and perplexed by the number of people who are arguing they are justified by works. That is the same argument of the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.
 

hedrick

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If water plays a role in salvation then salvation comes by merited works. Please show us where God declares us justified by our merited works. (I already addressed Romans 2 to show why our works cannot justify us by bringing in Paul's entire argument in Romans rather than clinging to a couple sentences as some odd prooftext.
So, explain to us how water merits God's compulsory extension of grace.
God operates through means. This includes preaching, teaching, and other things. I don't believe anyone is claiming that baptism is magic. It's just like other means by which God helps us.
 

Andrew

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I am amazed and perplexed by the number of people who are arguing they are justified by works. That is the same argument of the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.
No one is saying by works "alone" or "sol works" or whatever.... but works are part of the package as we discussed in James.
Good works follow justification... how about that?
Are you not working to persuade us on behalf of Gods good word? This is part of your mission right? So how do we know if you are being true or just working for justification yourself and you are dragging us along? How would we know?


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MennoSota

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James is not talking about justification. James is talking about how faith shows itself in good works. Faith itself is an unmerited gift from God. It is something we do not deserve.

No one is saying by works "alone" or "sol works" or whatever.... but works are part of the package as we discussed in James.
Good works follow justification... how about that?
Are you not working to persuade us on behalf of Gods good word? This is part of your mission right? So how do we know if you are being true or just working for justification yourself and you are dragging us along? How would we know?
We know we are not justified by out works because if that were so there would be NO reason for Jesus to die as a payment for our sins.
The scriptures lay this out very clearly.
 

atpollard

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For what it might be worth, here is the Baptist Faith and Message on SALVATION:

IV. Salvation

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.​

And on BAPTISM:

VII. Baptism and the Lord's Supper

Christian baptism is the immersion of a believer in water in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. It is an act of obedience symbolizing the believer's faith in a crucified, buried, and risen Saviour, the believer's death to sin, the burial of the old life, and the resurrection to walk in newness of life in Christ Jesus. It is a testimony to his faith in the final resurrection of the dead. Being a church ordinance, it is prerequisite to the privileges of church membership and to the Lord's Supper.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.​

I don’t expect many of you to agree, it is just what modern Baptists believe along with scripture verses they feel support those beliefs.
My modest contribution to the conversation.
 

Arsenios

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...I notice there is no talk of water baptism in any of those passages.
Thus, water baptism has nothing to do with salvation or justification. Water baptism must, therefore, be a symbolic ceremony expressing the immersion of sinners into Christ so that Christ is our propitiation that justifies us before God the Father.
Let us not turn water baptism into a mystical means of salvation. It isn't and it certainly is never taught as such in scripture.

That was a weak complaint...

Here, let me help you:
"As many as have been baptized INTO Christ have PUT ON Christ..."
Remember? Would you like chapter and verse??

By means of the hands of His Servants, for it was Ananias who baptized Saul into Christ...
And Peter baptized Cornelius and his party into Christ...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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MY point should be acknowledged as biblically accurate...
I will continue to harp on this point as long as false teaching ...

You could just keep repeating the same words over and over with cut and paste, I suppose...

OR...

You could engage the Biblical Text you accuse us of violating...

I have done so for you, my Brother...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Baptizo means to immerse. ... You force ... the word, baptizo (to) automatically add water when you see the word.
Why do you do that? There is no contextual reason to do so, yet you do it anyway.

Because Christ was baptized in the waters of the Jordan River...
AND... For instance...
Act 8:36
And as they went on their way,
they came unto a certain water:
and the eunuch said,
"See, here is water;
what doth hinder me
to be baptized?"


Perhaps you will hear God's Word in these holy words...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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If water plays a role in salvation...

Does Scripture say we are baptized into Christ...
Did Christ command the 11 to

So, explain to us how water merits God's compulsory extension of grace.

We baptize by Christ's Commandment:
"Disciple all the nations, baptizing them..."

Christ commanded 11 human beings to baptize...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I am amazed and perplexed by the number of people who are arguing they are justified by works. That is the same argument of the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.

You could have fooled me - Everyone here argues we are Justified by God...

Arsenios
 

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I am justified for my belief in Jesus Christ unto everlasting life.


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Arsenios

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Your point was so incisive that I wanted to offer a follow-up...
This is the singing of the Thrice-Holy Hymn in the Republic of Georgia...
An Apostolic Christian Country next to Russia...

Sung in the Aramaic which Jesus spoke...

Holy God...
Holy Mighty...
Holy Immortal...
Have Mercy on us!

(Repeated three times)

https://youtu.be/Y754VbLbg4A

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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God may adopt us in any circumstance he so chooses. However, we can never force the Sovereign King to act because we decide to perform a ceremony. Nowhere does the Bible say, "If you baptize someone, I am bound to adopt them."
Baptism is not a means of grace. Grace is the reason why we are then baptized. There is no means by which God chooses to be gracious. God chooses to be gracious according to His pleasure as He wills. Please stop putting the cart before God and then telling Him to push it.
God operates through means. This includes preaching, teaching, and other things. I don't believe anyone is claiming that baptism is magic. It's just like other means by which God helps us.
 

Arsenios

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We can never force the Sovereign King to act because we decide to perform a ceremony.

Did Ananias DECIDE to baptize Saul?

Indeed he did, in obedience to God...

So too do the Apostolic Churches...

Not imposing their will on God...

But receiving God's will in this Holy Body Whose Head is Christ our God...

Arsenios
 

MoreCoffee

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I am amazed and perplexed by the number of people who are arguing they are justified by works. That is the same argument of the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.

Holy scripture says a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. So your struggle is against what is written in holy scripture. You wrote "I am amazed and perplexed by the number of people who are arguing they are justified by works." Saint James writes "So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.". It does not amaze me that saint James wrote that.
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead. 18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear! 20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. 26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​
 

Lamb

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You could have fooled me - Everyone here argues we are Justified by God...

Arsenios

I think what Menno might not have seen and maybe I'm wrong myself in thinking EO and RC believe this but the works you are doing are those that by God's grace He has given to you to do because of Christ and that is how it connects to justification?
 

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To me when we do good works that we can easily do then I think many times it is us, it is when we step out into areas that we are ill equipped for and trust God to give us what we need to accomplish the task that we are stepping out in faith and doing something that is truly God given and inspired
 

MoreCoffee

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To me when we do good works that we can easily do then I think many times it is us, it is when we step out into areas that we are ill equipped for and trust God to give us what we need to accomplish the task that we are stepping out in faith and doing something that is truly God given and inspired

You're right (except for being inspired, that seems to be a word reserved for holy scripture in the holy scriptures) but I'd add that when we struggle against the sins that beset us and grace is given by God to help us overcome them then overcoming those sins is doing the works of God rather than doing our own works. God promises to give wisdom to those who ask without wavering and he promises to help those who struggle against the world, Satan, and sin by always giving grace sufficient to meet the challenge and never allowing the challenge to be impossible for the faithful. That is not to say that the faithful always overcome nor is it to say that the faithful always remain faithful because falling and getting up again is an experience that every Christian I have ever known in the flesh has experienced and it is not enough to make repentance impossible nor to end hope in the goodness of God and the grace he grants. As saint Paul wrote "when I am weak he is strong".
 

MennoSota

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LOL, you really struggle between passages directed toward the reconciled soul and the unreconciled soul. You also struggle with the outward sign of justification (effect) and the inward action of justification (cause). The cause is God and God alone, apart from anything we would try to do. (Again, if we could be justified by our own actions, Jesus would not have needed to sacrifice himself. We would live under the law and prove our own justification.)
Holy scripture says a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. So your struggle is against what is written in holy scripture. You wrote "I am amazed and perplexed by the number of people who are arguing they are justified by works." Saint James writes "So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.". It does not amaze me that saint James wrote that.
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead. 18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear! 20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God. 24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. 26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​
 
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