Justification

[Andrew]

.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

wait... what?

 

[MennoSota]

James 2:19-24
[19]You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
[20]How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
[21]Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
[22]You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.
[23]And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God.
[24]So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.

.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

wait... what?

Our works will be proof of our being justified, but without God's gift of faith your works are worthless and corrupt.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So what are the references to water and blood?

Or those of the need to be born of water and the Spirit?

Thanks

John 3: 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5: 6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

There is mention - in saint John the Baptist's speech about Jesus our Lord - of a baptism with the Holy Spirit and with Fire and some think that is a 'second baptism' but reading what saint John the Baptist says and the context in which he says it leads to a different conclusion.

Matthew 3:1 In the course of time, John the Baptist appeared in the desert of Judea and began to proclaim his message: 2 “Change your ways; the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” 3 It was about him that the prophet Isaiah had spoken when he said: A voice is shouting in the desert, ‘Prepare a way for the Lord; make his paths straight!’ 4 John had a leather garment around his waist and wore a cloak of camel’s hair; his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People came to him from Jerusalem, from all Judea and from the whole Jordan valley, 6 and they were baptised by him in the Jordan, as they confessed their sins. 7 When he saw several Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he baptised, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who told you that you could escape the punishment that is to come? 8 Let it be seen that you are serious in your conversion; 9 and do not think: We have Abraham for our father. I tell you, that God can raise children for Abraham from these stones! 10 The axe is already laid to the roots of the trees; any tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire. 11 I baptise you in water for a change of heart, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I am; indeed, I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 He has the winnowing fan in his hand; and he will clear out his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff, he will burn in inextinguishable fire.”​

Saint John the Baptist contrasts his baptism which is a baptism for repentance and the baptism that the Lord Jesus Christ will perform which is baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. Saint Paul teaches that for Christians there is one baptism and that baptism is in water for union with Jesus Christ. John says that Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit and fire; the Spirit blows where he wills and you cannot see him yet you feel the effects so does the chaff and the good seed feel him as he separates the one from the other the chaff is thrown into the fire when the winnowing floor is swept and the good seed is gathered into the barns. It doesn't take much effort to read with understanding.

 

[MennoSota]

Where does Paul say the baptism is water?

There is mention - in saint John the Baptist's speech about Jesus our Lord - of a baptism with the Holy Spirit and with Fire and some think that is a 'second baptism' but reading what saint John the Baptist says and the context in which he says it leads to a different conclusion.

Matthew 3:1 In the course of time, John the Baptist appeared in the desert of Judea and began to proclaim his message: 2 “Change your ways; the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” 3 It was about him that the prophet Isaiah had spoken when he said: A voice is shouting in the desert, ‘Prepare a way for the Lord; make his paths straight!’ 4 John had a leather garment around his waist and wore a cloak of camel’s hair; his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People came to him from Jerusalem, from all Judea and from the whole Jordan valley, 6 and they were baptised by him in the Jordan, as they confessed their sins. 7 When he saw several Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he baptised, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who told you that you could escape the punishment that is to come? 8 Let it be seen that you are serious in your conversion; 9 and do not think: We have Abraham for our father. I tell you, that God can raise children for Abraham from these stones! 10 The axe is already laid to the roots of the trees; any tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire. 11 I baptise you in water for a change of heart, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I am; indeed, I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 He has the winnowing fan in his hand; and he will clear out his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff, he will burn in inextinguishable fire.”​

Saint John the Baptist contrasts his baptism which is a baptism for repentance and the baptism that the Lord Jesus Christ will perform which is baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. Saint Paul teaches that for Christians there is one baptism and that baptism is in water for union with Jesus Christ. John says that Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit and fire; the Spirit blows where he wills and you cannot see him yet you feel the effects so does the chaff and the good seed feel him as he separates the one from the other the chaff is thrown into the fire when the winnowing floor is swept and the good seed is gathered into the barns. It doesn't take much effort to read with understanding.

 

[Andrew]

James 2:19-24
[19]You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.
[20]How foolish! Can’t you see that faith without good deeds is useless?
[21]Don’t you remember that our ancestor Abraham was shown to be right with God by his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
[22]You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.
[23]And so it happened just as the Scriptures say: “Abraham believed God, and God counted him as righteous because of his faith.” He was even called the friend of God.
[24]So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.Our works will be proof of our being justified, but without God's gift of faith your works are worthless and corrupt.

Amen brother. What version are you using here?

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

New Living Translation

Amen brother. What version are you using here?

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where does Paul say the baptism is water?

The word "baptise" implies water. Does't it mean to submerge [in water]? And baptism washes away sins, it is not like a bath insofar that its purpose is not to remove dirt from the body but it is like a bath insofar that it is with water and washes. Saint Peter says it in his second letter and saint Paul says it in his letter to the Romans and elsewhere, saint Luke says it in The Acts of the Apostles, and saints Matthew and Mark say it in their gospels. Saint John says it in his gospel and in The Revelation. I'd include verses but I doubt that they are needed.

 

[popsthebuilder]

There is mention - in saint John the Baptist's speech about Jesus our Lord - of a baptism with the Holy Spirit and with Fire and some think that is a 'second baptism' but reading what saint John the Baptist says and the context in which he says it leads to a different conclusion.

Matthew 3:1 In the course of time, John the Baptist appeared in the desert of Judea and began to proclaim his message: 2 “Change your ways; the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” 3 It was about him that the prophet Isaiah had spoken when he said: A voice is shouting in the desert, ‘Prepare a way for the Lord; make his paths straight!’ 4 John had a leather garment around his waist and wore a cloak of camel’s hair; his food was locusts and wild honey. 5 People came to him from Jerusalem, from all Judea and from the whole Jordan valley, 6 and they were baptised by him in the Jordan, as they confessed their sins. 7 When he saw several Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he baptised, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who told you that you could escape the punishment that is to come? 8 Let it be seen that you are serious in your conversion; 9 and do not think: We have Abraham for our father. I tell you, that God can raise children for Abraham from these stones! 10 The axe is already laid to the roots of the trees; any tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown in the fire. 11 I baptise you in water for a change of heart, but the one who is coming after me is more powerful than I am; indeed, I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptise you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 He has the winnowing fan in his hand; and he will clear out his threshing floor. He will gather his wheat into the barn; but the chaff, he will burn in inextinguishable fire.”​

Saint John the Baptist contrasts his baptism which is a baptism for repentance and the baptism that the Lord Jesus Christ will perform which is baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. Saint Paul teaches that for Christians there is one baptism and that baptism is in water for union with Jesus Christ. John says that Jesus will baptise with the Holy Spirit and fire; the Spirit blows where he wills and you cannot see him yet you feel the effects so does the chaff and the good seed feel him as he separates the one from the other the chaff is thrown into the fire when the winnowing floor is swept and the good seed is gathered into the barns. It doesn't take much effort to read with understanding.

Seems to me the use of the word "fire" here could be a reference to the burning away of impurities......or maybe judgement upon resurrection.....which to could have implications for this very life.....and repentance...

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

Baptism means to immerse. If you immerse in water, the person suffocates. If you immerse in Christ, the person has life. Baptism, as Paul uses it, must be referring to our immersion into Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. The context removes any implication that Paul is referring to water. This means you should rethink your churches position.

The word "baptise" implies water. Does't it mean to submerge [in water]? And baptism washes away sins, it is not like a bath insofar that its purpose is not to remove dirt from the body but it is like a bath insofar that it is with water and washes. Saint Peter says it in his second letter and saint Paul says it in his letter to the Romans and elsewhere, saint Luke says it in The Acts of the Apostles, and saints Matthew and Mark say it in their gospels. Saint John says it in his gospel and in The Revelation. I'd include verses but I doubt that they are needed.

 

[Arsenios]

The main Biblical reference to baptism with the Holy Spirit is Luke 3:16. This may well be connected with Acts 2:33. Indeed Acts 1:5 seems to make the connection explicit.

This need not, however, imply that either Luke or Jesus had in mind two separate baptisms. Acts 2:38 suggests that normal baptism in the name of Jesus confers the Holy Spirit.

Hence in the early Church baptism was combined with laying on of hands, as symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

So I think Biblically there actually is baptism with the Holy Spirit, but it's the usual Christian baptism.

I like to follow the literal Greek in these texts:

Acts 1:5
oti Iwannhv men ebaptisen udati
Because John baptized BY water
BY WATER - Generic dative of agency - So he ONLY baptized by water...

umeiv de baptisyhsesye en pneumati agiw
but you (emphasized) shall be baptized IN the Holy Spirit...
IN the Holy Spirit - A contrast with generic dative just above...

ou meta pollav tautav hmerav
not after "much these days."

So both are baptisms in water, the first BY water alone, but the second also IN the Holy Spirit...

The Early Church to this day lays hands on the one being baptized, conferring the Holy Spirit upon that person, but it is the Annointing with the Holy Chrism that confers the New Creation, the Seal of the Holy Spirit in the conjoining of the hypostasis of the person with God the Holy Spirit...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The word "baptise" implies water. Does't it mean to submerge [in water]?

Yes it does - Literally to dip- (eg bapt-) -ize

And baptism washes away sins, it is not like a bath insofar that its purpose is not to remove dirt from the body but it is like a bath insofar that it is with water and washes.

It washes away the filth and the stench of sin in a Christian Baptism...

Saint Peter says it in his second letter and Saint Paul says it in his letter to the Romans and elsewhere, Saint Luke says it in The Acts of the Apostles, and Saints Matthew and Mark say it in their Gospels. Saint John says it in his Gospel and in The Revelation. I'd include verses but I doubt that they are needed.

I am in ever-amazement at the inability of the Sola Scripture folks to read the Greek that is NOT some VERSION of the Bible... If all must be based on the holy words of the Good Book, then at least know its original language, and it is not Hebrew, nor is it anything other than Greek... May I also add that it is not Shakespearean English either??

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It also, literally means to submerge or be sunk.
Paul doesn't bring up water when using the word baptizo. The better interpretation is to immerse, be sunk into Christ.
https://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/baptizo.html
Second, when you force water into the context, you also force salvation by works into the passage. Yet God is very, very clear that nothing we do will ever merit his forgiveness of our sins. Thus, your position is entirely contrary to God and His word.

Yes it does - Literally to dip- (eg bapt-) -ize



It washes away the filth and the stench of sin in a Christian Baptism...



I am in ever-amazement at the inability of the Sola Scripture folks to read the Greek that is NOT some VERSION of the Bible... If all must be based on the holy words of the Good Book, then at least know its original language, and it is not Hebrew, nor is it anything other than Greek... May I also add that it is not Shakespearean English either??

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism means to immerse.

Literally to dip...

In Ruth 2:14 Boaz invites Ruth to baptize (dip) her morsel of bread into the vinegar...
Baptism literally means to saturate in liquid by total immersion...

If you immerse in water, the person suffocates.

That is very weak...

If you immerse in Christ, the person has life.

Do you not know that we are baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross?

Baptism, as Paul uses it, must be referring to our immersion into Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit.

He would know, because Ananias baptized him in the Holy Spirit...

The context removes any implication that Paul is referring to water.

Your presumption is not local context...

This means you should rethink your churches position.

I agree, but only if you are talking to yourself!

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

You desire to preach salvation by works, despite the Bible teaching otherwise. Why is that?

Literally to dip...

In Ruth 2:14 Boaz invites Ruth to baptize (dip) her morsel of bread into the vinegar...
Baptism literally means to saturate in liquid by total immersion...



That is very weak...



Do you not know that we are baptized into Christ's Death on the Cross?



He would know, because Ananias baptized him in the Holy Spirit...



Your presumption is not local context...



I agree, but only if you are talking to yourself!

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Seems to me the use of the word "fire" here could be a reference to the burning away of impurities......or maybe judgement upon resurrection.....which to could have implications for this very life.....and repentance...

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

Fire does purify and the faithful can expect purification at the last judgement but isn't your perspective very close to the doctrine of purgatory? Of course I think of justification as inclusive of purgation because ultimately only purity is admissible to the beatific vision of God (deification).

 

[Andrew]

Fire does purify and the faithful can expect purification at the last judgement but isn't your perspective very close to the doctrine of purgatory? Of course I think of justification as inclusive of purgation because ultimately only purity is admissible to the beatific vision of God (deification).

Literal fire? If so would that indicate that Jesus sense he was in hell for three days -purged the world of sin through him? And would that make Catholic purgatory void?
In theory of course

Sent from my LGLS755 using Tapatalk

 

[Arsenios]

You desire to preach salvation by works, despite the Bible teaching otherwise. Why is that?

Ephesians 2:8
For by (His) Grace ye exist
having been saved
through the Faith;
and that (Salvation) not from yourselves:
Of God the Gift...

The Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples...
IS...
The work of repentance from sin...
AND...
The work of turning to God...

It is God ALONE Who can GIVE Salvation...
ONLY God CAN give Salvation...
For the GIFT of Salvation is God Himself...
And ONLY God HAS Himself to Give...
NOTHING can EVER EARN God Himself...

The Call of God to Man is the Call to Repentance from Sin...
Justification comes with man's ENTRY INTO Christ...
We are Baptized INTO Christ...
Therein we WORK OUT our Salvation in fear and trembling...

Salvation BY God is THROUGH the works of the Faith of Christ...
For we are Saved BY Christ THROUGH the Faith He gave us...
The Marriage of the Lamb conjoins man to God in Power...

1Corinthians 4:20
For the Kingdom of God
is not in word,
but in Power.

God and man come into a Marriage of KNOWING...
"And this IS Life Eternal,
that they should KNOW Thee...
The One True God...
And Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent..."

The Gift of Salvation IS a Gift because it cannot be earned, for God cannot be earned...
Yet we are ever reminded to "dount the cost" of Discipleship...
Need I remind you - of "Apostolic Discipleship"?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Literal fire?

The Church historically has held that this fire is the fire of the temptations of the world...
After Baptism, Christ went into the wilderness fasting for 40 days and nights...
THEN He was tempted by the Devil...
IF we are baptized INTO Christ, then we too ARE ABLE to overcome these temptations...
Because Christ overcame them in His Own Body...
And if NOT baptized INTO Christ...
Then NOT...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

The Church historically has held that this fire is the fire of the temptations of the world...
After Baptism, Christ went into the wilderness fasting for 40 days and nights...
THEN He was tempted by the Devil...
IF we are baptized INTO Christ, then we too ARE ABLE to overcome these temptations...
Because Christ overcame them in His Own Body...
And if NOT baptized INTO Christ...
Then NOT...

Arsenios

In answer to DHoffmann's question, "literal fire?" ... I do not know, does it matter? The story that saint John the Baptist tells is of a threshing floor and winnowing grain and chaff the wind carries away the chaff and leaves the grain so the grain can be gathered and the chaff swept up and burned. The analogy is to baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire. Reading the passage in Greek the reason for the link between winnowing and the Holy Spirit is clear enough and so is the link between fire and the burning of the chaff. In English the reason for the link between the Holy Spirit and winnowing is also clear enough and so is the link between fire and burning the chaff.

 

[MennoSota]

Ephesians 2:8
For by (His) Grace ye exist
having been saved
through the Faith;
and that (Salvation) not from yourselves:
Of God the Gift...

The Faith of Christ which He discipled to His disciples...
IS...
The work of repentance from sin...
AND...
The work of turning to God...

It is God ALONE Who can GIVE Salvation...
ONLY God CAN give Salvation...
For the GIFT of Salvation is God Himself...
And ONLY God HAS Himself to Give...
NOTHING can EVER EARN God Himself...

The Call of God to Man is the Call to Repentance from Sin...
Justification comes with man's ENTRY INTO Christ...
We are Baptized INTO Christ...
Therein we WORK OUT our Salvation in fear and trembling...

Salvation BY God is THROUGH the works of the Faith of Christ...
For we are Saved BY Christ THROUGH the Faith He gave us...
The Marriage of the Lamb conjoins man to God in Power...

1Corinthians 4:20
For the Kingdom of God
is not in word,
but in Power.

God and man come into a Marriage of KNOWING...
"And this IS Life Eternal,
that they should KNOW Thee...
The One True God...
And Jesus Christ Whom Thou hast sent..."

The Gift of Salvation IS a Gift because it cannot be earned, for God cannot be earned...
Yet we are ever reminded to "dount the cost" of Discipleship...
Need I remind you - of "Apostolic Discipleship"?

Arsenios

...I notice there is no talk of water baptism in any of those passages.
Thus, water baptism has nothing to do with salvation or justification. Water baptism must, therefore, be a symbolic ceremony expressing the immersion of sinners into Christ so that Christ is our propitiation that justifies us before God the Father.
Let us not turn water baptism into a mystical means of salvation. It isn't and it certainly is never taught as such in scripture.