Justification

[Arsenios]

Are you saying that Judas did not repent? Did i misunderstand you, or are you saying the sorrow that affected him wasn't a shame brought about by GOD in his heart/ mind/ conscience?

Judas did not repent -

He realized the enormity of what he had done and tried to fix it...
He returned the money...
He committed suicide...

His actions were that of a mob boss trying to fix a problem with "the boys"...

Peter, upon denying Christ the third time and hearing the rooster crow, entered into enormous sorrow and gut-wrenching tears as the prodigal, and was restored to his former Apostleship by Christ Himself, which he had lost...

Peter immediately entered into the deep repentance of sorrow...
Judas realized the consequences of his actions and entered despair...

Adam, we know, blamed God for giving him "THAT WOMAN" [not Bill Clinton's!] whom he blamed for his eating of the fruit... I should not be surprised to learn that Judas blamed the Jews for his transgression, when he threw the silver at their feet... Nor was Pilate ABLE to wash his hands of Jesus... Nor did he ask Jesus to wash his hands...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Judas Iscariot killed himself and self killing is in itself a sin and it can be a mortal sin.

Can be a mortal sin?
Yes...
The real treachery with suicide, aside from the stencheous disgustingness of the demon into whom you enter through it, is the fact that no one has yet figured out any way to repent from it...

Jes' sayin'...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Repentance like all the other emotions emulate Gods emotions

May I suggest to you, my Brother, that Repentance is an action, not an emotion...
Godly sorrow leads to repentance...
Worldly sorrow leads to death...

Repentance turns from evil unto God...
Evil embraces murder and suicide...

Arsenios

 

[psalms 91]

May I suggest to you, my Brother, that Repentance is an action, not an emotion...
Godly sorrow leads to repentance...
Worldly sorrow leads to death...

Repentance turns from evil unto God...
Evil embraces murder and suicide...

Arsenios

Sorrow is an emotion and our emotions are God given and we see in the buible that God has emotions. When I say emotions I also said that it is corrupted and our emotions ae not pure as Gods are.

 

[MennoSota]

Catholic teaching is that baptismal grace and being a child of God never cease to be once they are received in baptism, confirmation, and ordination. Each places a mark on one's character. Mortal sin is an entirely human activity and from the human side severs one's love for and relationship with God. Mortal sin kills the sinner's life in Christ. Repentance and reconciliation (confession with absolution) restores it.

You can't see it, but in your presentation grace does not actually exist. Instead it is a series of works, marked by a milestone ceremony that justifies you before God.
I cannot agree with your presentation because grace is not present.

 

[Arsenios]

Sorrow is an emotion and our emotions are God given and we see in the buible that God has emotions. When I say emotions I also said that it is corrupted and our emotions ae not pure as Gods are.

I agree -

Yet sorrow is not repentance...
But it can be a driver of repentance...

Judas was so sorrowful he killed himself...
Peter was so sorrowful he was restored to Christ...

So sorrow is not repentance...
Yet repentance is sorrowful...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

You can't see it, but in your presentation grace does not actually exist. Instead it is a series of works, marked by a milestone ceremony that justifies you before God.
I cannot agree with your presentation because grace is not present.

Let me quote a friend of mine in reply to your post above:

You can't see it...

A direct quote, I say!

You can read it yourself 6 lines up...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Let me quote a friend of mine in reply to your post above:

You can't see it...

A direct quote, I say!

You can read it yourself 6 lines up...

Arsenios

I read the word grace, but it is not grace at all. It is merited works that MC describes, not unmerited favor.

 

[hedrick]

sorry, wrong post

 

[hedrick]

Judas did not repent -

He realized the enormity of what he had done and tried to fix it...

If he truly tried to fix it, I'd say that indicated repentance. However looking at the whole picture I agree that it doesn't suggest that he repented. Of course only God knows for sure.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let me quote a friend of mine in reply to your post above:

You can't see it...

A direct quote, I say!

You can read it yourself 6 lines up...

Arsenios

Brother MennoSota sees no grace in what I wrote. That is not a surprise. But to help make matters clear it is not the sacraments that are grace - baptism, confirmation, holy orders are sacraments that God gave to the Church as instruments of grace and just as the musical instrument is not the musician so the sacraments are not grace but instruments through which God gives grace - grace is God's own giving of himself in baptism and in confirmation and in holy orders in the first, baptism, God gives himself in the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and in the second, confirmation, God gives himself in the Holy Spirit who brings life and dynamic energy to work the works of God, and in the third, holy orders, God gives himself as servant and minister to the body of Christ who washes the feet of the redeemed hears their prayers and confessions and works the works of God in the divine liturgy. So the faithful receive grace through the sacraments and grace is increased in them as they exercise the grace given gifts already given and in the most holy Eucharist Christ gives his flesh and his blood as food and drink for the faithful to constantly renew his life in them in preparation for the resurrection in which they will be made like him having a share in the divine nature. But, brother MennoSota, if these things seem empty of grace to you I urge you to pray and keep praying until seeing comes and grace is understood.

 

[MennoSota]

Brother MennoSota sees no grace in what I wrote. That is not a surprise. But to help make matters clear it is not the sacraments that are grace - baptism, confirmation, holy orders are sacraments that God gave to the Church as instruments of grace and just as the musical instrument is not the musician so the sacraments are not grace but instruments through which God gives grace - grace is God's own giving of himself in baptism and in confirmation and in holy orders in the first, baptism, God gives himself in the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ and in the second, confirmation, God gives himself in the Holy Spirit who brings life and dynamic energy to work the works of God, and in the third, holy orders, God gives himself as servant and minister to the body of Christ who washes the feet of the redeemed hears their prayers and confessions and works the works of God in the divine liturgy. So the faithful receive grace through the sacraments and grace is increased in them as they exercise the grace given gifts already given and in the most holy Eucharist Christ gives his flesh and his blood as food and drink for the faithful to constantly renew his life in them in preparation for the resurrection in which they will be made like him having a share in the divine nature. But, brother MennoSota, if these things seem empty of grace to you I urge you to pray and keep praying until seeing comes and grace is understood.

Not one bit of scripture, yet a lot of church speak straight from the Vatican.
Grace is quite simple. God chooses, by his own will, to gift unmerited favor and we do nothing to deserve it. Absolutely nothing. If actions were required of us then it would not be grace. It would be merited favor.
All that you preach is a gospel of works apart from grace. It is just a tweaked message of the Judaisers whom Paul condemned in his letter to the Galatians.
I do pray, MC. I pray that the veil will be lifted from your eyes and you will know God's redeeming grace apart from the Vatican's false gospel.

 

[Arsenios]

2Ti 2:23-25
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,
knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive;
but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance
to the acknowledging of the truth;

Glory to God for all things...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

2Ti 2:23-25
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,
knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive;
but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance
to the acknowledging of the truth;

Glory to God for all things...

Arsenios

I see, from the quote in your post, that my post was not well received by brother MennoSota. But the holy scriptures encourage the faithful to offer help even when it is likely to be rejected. Nevertheless the holy scriptures do teach the things that I wrote. First that baptism is an instrument of grace (while not itself being the grace that it is instrumental in giving) is testified to in this passage:

• Romans 6:3 Don’t you know, that in baptism, which unites us to Christ, we are all baptised and plunged into his death? 4 By this baptism in his death, we were buried with Christ and, as Christ was raised from among the dead by the glory of the Father, we begin walking in a new life. 5 If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so shall we be, by a resurrection like his. 6 We know, that our old self was crucified with Christ, so as to destroy what of us was sin, so that, we may no longer serve sin—7 if we are dead, we are no longer in debt to sin. 8 But, if we have died with Christ, we believe we will also live with him. 9 We know, that Christ, once risen from the dead, will not die again, and death has no more dominion over him. 10 For, by dying, he is dead to sin, once and for all, and, now, the life that he lives, is life with God.

Of course baptismal grace is not limited to the moment of baptism alone but is like "the yellow brick road" in the story of Oz which is a road that must be followed in order to reach the emerald city of Oz. Without following the road the city will never be seen. That is why saint Paul continues with these encouraging words about the grace given in baptism:

Romans 6:11 So you, too, must consider yourselves dead to sin, and alive to God, in Christ Jesus. 12 Do not allow sin any control over your mortal bodies; do not submit yourselves to its evil inclinations, 13 and do not give your members over to sin, as instruments to do evil. On the contrary, offer yourselves, as persons returned from death to life, and let the members of your body be as holy instruments, at the service of God. 14 Sin will not lord it over you again, for you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 I ask again: are we to sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? Certainly not. 16 If you have given yourselves up to someone as his slave, you are to obey the one who commands you, aren’t you? Now, with sin, you go to death, and by accepting faith, you go the right way. 17 Let us give thanks to God, for, after having sin as your master, you have been given to another, that is, to the doctrine of faith, to which you listen willingly. 18 And being free from sin, you began to serve true righteousness—19 you see, that I speak in a very human way, taking into account that you are not fully mature. There was a time, when you let your members be slaves of impurity and dis order, walking in the way of sin; con vert them, now, into servants of righteousness, to the point of be - coming holy. 20 When you were slaves of sin, you did not feel under obligation to righteousness, 21 but what were the fruits of those actions, of which you are now ashamed? Such things bring death. 22 Now, however, you have been freed from sin and serve God. You are bearing fruit, and growing in holiness, and the result will be life everlasting. 23 So, on one side is sin: its reward, death; on the other side, is God: He gives us, by grace, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.​

God never leaves his faithful people in the darkness regarding his gifts and calling. He always spells out what we are to be like if we say we are following Jesus Christ.

Grace is never an excuse for indolence or surrender to sloth in doing good. And this is why translating what saints Paul and James say as "made righteous" is helpful and why translating it as "declared righteous" is not.

 

[MennoSota]

2Ti 2:23-25
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,
knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive;
but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance
to the acknowledging of the truth;

Glory to God for all things...

Arsenios

Read Galatians and get back to me.

 

[MennoSota]

I see, from the quote in your post, that my post was not well received by brother MennoSota. But the holy scriptures encourage the faithful to offer help even when it is likely to be rejected. Nevertheless the holy scriptures do teach the things that I wrote. First that baptism is an instrument of grace (while not itself being the grace that it is instrumental in giving) is testified to in this passage:

• Romans 6:3 Don’t you know, that in baptism, which unites us to Christ, we are all baptised and plunged into his death? 4 By this baptism in his death, we were buried with Christ and, as Christ was raised from among the dead by the glory of the Father, we begin walking in a new life. 5 If we have been joined to him by dying a death like his, so shall we be, by a resurrection like his. 6 We know, that our old self was crucified with Christ, so as to destroy what of us was sin, so that, we may no longer serve sin—7 if we are dead, we are no longer in debt to sin. 8 But, if we have died with Christ, we believe we will also live with him. 9 We know, that Christ, once risen from the dead, will not die again, and death has no more dominion over him. 10 For, by dying, he is dead to sin, once and for all, and, now, the life that he lives, is life with God.

Of course baptismal grace is not limited to the moment of baptism alone but is like "the yellow brick road" in the story of Oz which is a road that must be followed in order to reach the emerald city of Oz. Without following the road the city will never be seen. That is why saint Paul continues with these encouraging words about the grace given in baptism:

Nowhere is baptism called grace.
Second, Paul is referring to the immersion (baptism) brought about by God at the moment of adoption. Water baptism is not needed, nor is there any magical means of grace conveyed in water baptism. The text itself shows your preaching to be wrong. Baptismal grace is your own coined and made-up word.

Romans 6:11 So you, too, must consider yourselves dead to sin, and alive to God, in Christ Jesus. 12 Do not allow sin any control over your mortal bodies; do not submit yourselves to its evil inclinations, 13 and do not give your members over to sin, as instruments to do evil. On the contrary, offer yourselves, as persons returned from death to life, and let the members of your body be as holy instruments, at the service of God. 14 Sin will not lord it over you again, for you are not under the law, but under grace. 15 I ask again: are we to sin because we are not under the law, but under grace? Certainly not. 16 If you have given yourselves up to someone as his slave, you are to obey the one who commands you, aren’t you? Now, with sin, you go to death, and by accepting faith, you go the right way. 17 Let us give thanks to God, for, after having sin as your master, you have been given to another, that is, to the doctrine of faith, to which you listen willingly. 18 And being free from sin, you began to serve true righteousness—19 you see, that I speak in a very human way, taking into account that you are not fully mature. There was a time, when you let your members be slaves of impurity and dis order, walking in the way of sin; con vert them, now, into servants of righteousness, to the point of be - coming holy. 20 When you were slaves of sin, you did not feel under obligation to righteousness, 21 but what were the fruits of those actions, of which you are now ashamed? Such things bring death. 22 Now, however, you have been freed from sin and serve God. You are bearing fruit, and growing in holiness, and the result will be life everlasting. 23 So, on one side is sin: its reward, death; on the other side, is God: He gives us, by grace, life everlasting, in Christ Jesus, our Lord.​

God never leaves his faithful people in the darkness regarding his gifts and calling. He always spells out what we are to be like if we say we are following Jesus Christ.

Grace is never an excuse for indolence or surrender to sloth in doing good. And this is why translating what saints Paul and James say as "made righteous" is helpful and why translating it as "declared righteous" is not.

Indeed, "shall we continue in sin that grace might abound? May it never be!"
God's unmerited favor of adoption should never be an excuse to keep on sinning. We should never flippantly say that our sin glorifies God because it magnifies His grace.
Paul goes on to discuss this struggle in Romans 7. He then brings it home in Romans 8. Read it all to grasp God's grace. Note that the only means by which we are not condemned is "in Christ Jesus." A person could utterly fail to be baptized, participate in communion, go through confirmation or perform any other ceremony in your church and God would still hold them secure by his unmerited favor. Works not needed. But...works will be evident because God's gift of faith will be evident.
Now, throw away your teachings on "do not handle, do not touch, which have a semblance of godliness, but do nothing to save the soul." These things are not a means of grace. They are disciplines that may help keep you from doing certain things, but they have no means of saving or keeping one's soul from hell. Only God, by God's favor, apart from our works, will save us. Your actions (good or bad) do not play any part in your salvation/adoption. It is God and God alone.
I pray the eyes of your heart will be opened and the teaching of the "Judaisers" will be thrown out in your life.

 

[Arsenios]

Read Galatians and get back to me.

2Ti 2:23-25
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid,
knowing that they do gender strifes.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive;
but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves;
if God peradventure will give them repentance
to the acknowledging of the truth;

Paul's words recorded in the Bible...

I choose Paul...

How about you choosing Paul too?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Nowhere is Baptism called Grace.

So are we baptized INTO Christ?
Are we baptized INTO His Death on the Cross?

Is entry into Christ and His Life and His Death by Grace?
Is Salvation by and through ENTRY into Christ?

Or do you think it is apart from entry into Christ?
Do you want me to cite the Scriptures for you?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Second, Paul is referring to the immersion (baptism) brought about by God at the moment of adoption. Water baptism is not needed, nor is there any magical means of grace conveyed in water baptism.

Then why was Christ baptized? Do you remember His Holy Words to John when John said to Him that he needed to be baptized by Christ?

And why did Peter, after the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles Cornelius and his party, after the prayers of Cornelius had ascended to the Throne of the Most High, after all this... Then why does the Bible have Cornelius and his household ALL baptized INTO Christ... By YOUR false theory, they have all been baptized already... Yet for Peter, all of that but qualified them for Baptism...

And how about the Ethopian Eunuch? Why did he descend from his chariot into the waters of the river and receive Baptism at the hands of Christ's Servant Philip?

And Saul? Did he not meet Christ Himself on the Road to Damascus? Why did Christ Himself send Saul to His Servant Ananias to heal his blindness and fill him with the Holy Spirit in Baptism?

And whom did Christ command to baptize all the nations? Was it not the 11?

Baptism is in water, my friend... By that MEANS the Servants of Christ confer the Holy Spirit initiating the change that creates a New Creation IN Christ...

Nowhere in Scripture will you find the Holy Spirit DOING Baptism... Only the Apostles and the other Servants of our Lord serving in the Ekklesia, the Holy Body of Christ... Christ Himself baptizes with the hands of His Servants...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

.