Justification

[MennoSota]

So are we baptized INTO Christ?
Are we baptized INTO His Death on the Cross?

Is entry into Christ and His Life and His Death by Grace?
Is Salvation by and through ENTRY into Christ?

Or do you think it is apart from entry into Christ?
Do you want me to cite the Scriptures for you?

Arsenios

Yes, the Spirit of God baptizes us at the moment God makes us alive and adopts us into His family as His child.
Water baptism is not effectual, it is symbolic of what God already did when He chose to do it.
Thus infant baptism is a church invention designed to try force God to be gracious when he may not have ever chosen to extend saving grace to that child. It is an attempted work of the church to demand that God be gracious. It should cease as a ceremony when a church teaches it as a means of grace. It becomes a false and abhorrent teaching.

 

[MennoSota]

Then why was Christ baptized? Do you remember His Holy Words to John when John said to Him that he needed to be baptized by Christ?

And why did Peter, after the Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles Cornelius and his party, after the prayers of Cornelius had ascended to the Throne of the Most High, after all this... Then why does the Bible have Cornelius and his household ALL baptized INTO Christ... By YOUR false theory, they have all been baptized already... Yet for Peter, all of that but qualified them for Baptism...

And how about the Ethopian Eunuch? Why did he descend from his chariot into the waters of the river and receive Baptism at the hands of Christ's Servant Philip?

And Saul? Did he not meet Christ Himself on the Road to Damascus? Why did Christ Himself send Saul to His Servant Ananias to heal his blindness and fill him with the Holy Spirit in Baptism?

And whom did Christ command to baptize all the nations? Was it not the 11?

Baptism is in water, my friend... By that MEANS the Servants of Christ confer the Holy Spirit initiating the change that creates a New Creation IN Christ...

Nowhere in Scripture will you find the Holy Spirit DOING Baptism... Only the Apostles and the other Servants of our Lord serving in the Ekklesia, the Holy Body of Christ... Christ Himself baptizes with the hands of His Servants...

Arsenios

Water baptism, in every case you site, is symbolic. There is nothing special about the water. We water baptize as a symbol of what the Spirit of God has already done.
You attempt to make your ceremonies into more than they are. You add mysticism into a physical action. You remove grace and require works. You require congregants to be "circumcised" (water baptized) as an added requirement to salvation. You are preaching a gospel of works, apart from grace. It is anathema.
Baptism that saves is done by the Spirit of God and by Him alone. The Spirit of God immerses us into Christ Jesus. Your ceremonies are useless when it comes to adding anything to God's work. You have made them an idol that you worship. Repent.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Hi all, There has been a small clean-up in the thread this morning stemming from some inappropriate comments. If you see part/all of a post missing, that would be why. Thanks.

 

[ImaginaryDay2]

Do you want me to cite the Scriptures for you?

Arsenios

With certain folks that's the best thing you can do. Just a hint.

 

[MennoSota]

With certain folks that's the best thing you can do. Just a hint.

Indeed, scripture, in context, is greater than church tradition 100% of the time. Leaning on a poorly supported tradition will be considered illegitimate opinion equal to a basic blog.
Tradition must be subject to scripture or it becomes heresy.

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism that saves is done by the Spirit of God and by Him alone.

Mat_28:19
Go ye therefore,
and disciple all nations,
baptizing them in the name
of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit:

So WHO is Christ commanding here to be Baptizing...?
And WHOM are they to Baptize?

And where does the Bible say that the Spirit of God Baptizes?

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

Mat_28:19
Go ye therefore,
and disciple all nations,
baptizing them in the name
of the Father,
and of the Son,
and of the Holy Spirit:

So WHO and is Christ commanding here to be Baptizing...?
And WHOM are they to Baptize?

And where does the Bible say that the Spirit of God Baptizes?

Arsenios

Since the arrival of Pentecostalism in the 20th century people have been referring to "baptism with" and "the baptism of" the Holy Spirit as a second experience of 'baptism', it's a recent innovation in theology-talk in some circles.

 

[psalms 91]

Since the arrival of Pentecostalism in the 20th century people have been referring to "baptism with" and "the baptism of" the Holy Spirit as a second experience of 'baptism', it's a recent innovation in theology-talk in some circles.

I believe Axts 2 has something to do with this and yes I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit

 

[MoreCoffee]

I believe Axts 2 has something to do with this and yes I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit

Brother psalms 91, it is not the phrase "baptised with the Holy Spirit" that raises a curious glance but the view that there is a second baptism that is without water and with the Holy Spirit. There is one baptism as saint Paul writes, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father of all. The one baptism is with water and the Spirit and it saves and brings life because it unites to Christ.

 

[Albion]

I believe Axts 2 has something to do with this and yes I believe in the baptism of the Holy Spirit

As MoreCoffee was explaining, that ^ experience is called a 'baptism' only by way of making an analogy to sacramental (water) baptism, much like the way we hear people say that they went through a 'baptism' of fire, meaning a very trying time in their life or some learning experience. They do not mean by that expression that their original baptism in church was not complete or that there is another one without water coming up or needed.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So what are the references to water and blood?

Or those of the need to be born of water and the Spirit?

Thanks

John 3: 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1 John 5: 6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

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[MennoSota]

No. The baptism by the Spirit into Christ is very real. The analogy and symbol is the water baptism performed to share with both the Christian and non-Christian community the fact that the Spirit has made us united (immersed) in Christ Jesus.
Albion, you have it entirely backward.

As MoreCoffee was explaining, that ^ experience is called a 'baptism' only by way of making an analogy to sacramental (water) baptism, much like the way we hear people say that they went through a 'baptism' of fire, meaning a very trying time in their life or some learning experience. They do not mean by that expression that their original baptism in church was not complete or that there is another one without water coming up or needed.

 

[Arsenios]

No. The baptism by the Spirit into Christ is very real. The analogy and symbol is the water baptism performed to share with both the Christian and non-Christian community the fact that the Spirit has made us united (immersed) in Christ Jesus.
Albion, you have it entirely backward.

When a parched throat is given a glass of water, it can be understood as Salvation, when it is but the first sip of what is to come... The Call of God when received by the unrepentant CAN be misunderstood as Salvation itself... And with that, the one hearing that Call can immediately go forth saying that his experience of the Holy Spirit is actually what Baptism IS... And we have ourselves a brand new doctrine of Baptisms that is anti-Biblical...

There is One God, One Baptism, One Faith...

AND...

Old Testament believers were VERY familiar with experience of the Holy Spirit, and called it Salvation, and it was Salvation, yet they all went to Hades upon their deaths... Even John, their greatest Prophet, whose very hands touched the Messiah Whom He proclaimed... But we are Baptized by Christ through the hands of His Servants appointed by His Apostles and their successors... And this One Baptism is in water - Into the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan River, into Christ Himself...

Mennosota, "you have it entirely backward." Your own words convict you...

And you have provided no Biblical demonstration of your false opinions...

Arsenios

 

[Albion]

So what are the references to water and blood?

Or those of the need to be born of water and the Spirit?

Thanks

John 3: 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

I don't see a problem here. Baptism does several things, one of which is to impart the Holy Spirit.

1 John 5: 6. This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

There are different interpretations of the water and blood comment, but all the accepted ones seem to feel that the reference is to the water and blood that came from Christ's side when it was pierced as he hung on the Cross, thus being a symbol or proof of his physical death (for the sins of mankind) OR else that the reference is to the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper respectively.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I don't see a problem here. Baptism does several things, one of which is to impart the Holy Spirit.


There are different interpretations of the water and blood comment, but all the accepted ones seem to feel that the reference is to the water and blood that came from Christ's side when it was pierced as he hung on the Cross, thus being a symbol or proof of his physical death (for the sins of mankind) OR else that the reference is to the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's Supper respectively.

And what of resisting sin to the point of blood?



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[Albion]

And what of resisting sin to the point of blood?

That passage, from Hebrews, appears to say the obvious--that the hearers had not yet had to fight for their faith and perhaps suffer martyrdom for it.

 

[Arsenios]

So what are the references to water and blood?

Or those of the need to be born of water and the Spirit?

John 3: 5.
Jesus answered,
"Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born out of Water and (out of) the Spirit,
he is not able to enter
into the Kingdom of God." [my more literal edits of the translation]

The Water is the purifying water of the Baptism unto remission of all one's former sins...
The Spirit is the conjoining of the one so purified with the Holy Spirit as a New Creation...

Just as Christ was only brought into creation in the purified womb of the Blessed Virgin,
so also is He only brought into His New Creation in one who is purified by Baptism unto remission of sins...
It is upon the arising our of the cleansing Waters that the Holy Spirit THEN descends and abides...
This second action, in the form of the descent of the Dove in Christ's Baptism, is the Anointing...
THEN, we eat His (Ascended and timeless) Body and drink His Blood... It is Fire...

1 John 5: 6.
This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ;
not by water only, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.KJV?

There are some shifts in the Greek that bear a literal look:

outov estin o elywn di' udatov kai aimatov Ihsouv Xristov
This is He coming through Water and (through) Blood, Jesus Christ...

ouk en tw udati monon all en tw udati kai tw aimati
(He is coming) not in the Water alone, but in the water and (in) the Blood...

kai to pneuma estin to marturoun oti to pneuma estin h alhyeia
And the Spirit is the witness because the Spirit is the Truth...

So literally the present tense of "coming" is explaining that it is Christ Who is coming TO US THROUGH Baptism, and not only in the Water, but also in the Blood... This is a great Mystery, but remember that Blood means Life, and with the spear, Water and Blood flowed to the earth from the Side of our Lord after He died on the Cross...

So that we are cleansed, the conjoined with the Spirit, then eat of the Bread of Life, and drink His Blood...
That we have Life IN us...

So that this pericope establishes Biblical Baptism as the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan, in the Waters that now grant remission of sin because of His Baptism therein by John, and then the descent and abiding of the Spirit of God upon us as a new creation, and our ingesting the Body and Blood of our Lord...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

That passage, from Hebrews, appears to say the obvious--that the hearers had not yet had to fight for their faith and perhaps suffer martyrdom for it.

Exactly so... Unto blood means unto the point of giving up one's life for something...

Arsenios

 

[hedrick]

The main Biblical reference to baptism with the Holy Spirit is Luke 3:16. This may well be connected with Acts 2:33. Indeed Acts 1:5 seems to make the connection explicit.

This need not, however, imply that either Luke or Jesus had in mind two separate baptisms. Acts 2:38 suggests that normal baptism in the name of Jesus confers the Holy Spirit.

Hence in the early Church baptism was combined with laying on of hands, as symbolic of the Holy Spirit.

So I think Biblically there actually is baptism with the Holy Spirit, but it's the usual Christian baptism.

 

[MennoSota]

There is One God, One Baptism (performed by God the Spirit) and one Faith, given as a gift from God, apart from any work, lest a person should boast.

Your problem seems to be that you want your own actions to determine your standing with God (works with no grace).
God does all the work (God's grace) and we do nothing to merit His favor. From Genesis to Revelation we see that it is all God. You teach a different gospel, not taught in scripture.

When a parched throat is given a glass of water, it can be understood as Salvation, when it is but the first sip of what is to come... The Call of God when received by the unrepentant CAN be misunderstood as Salvation itself... And with that, the one hearing that Call can immediately go forth saying that his experience of the Holy Spirit is actually what Baptism IS... And we have ourselves a brand new doctrine of Baptisms that is anti-Biblical...

There is One God, One Baptism, One Faith...

AND...

Old Testament believers were VERY familiar with experience of the Holy Spirit, and called it Salvation, and it was Salvation, yet they all went to Hades upon their deaths... Even John, their greatest Prophet, whose very hands touched the Messiah Whom He proclaimed... But we are Baptized by Christ through the hands of His Servants appointed by His Apostles and their successors... And this One Baptism is in water - Into the Baptism of Christ in the Jordan River, into Christ Himself...

Mennosota, "you have it entirely backward." Your own words convict you...

And you have provided no Biblical demonstration of your false opinions...

Arsenios