Justification - Part 2

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MennoSota

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If that is true then explain John 3 and what Jesus meant by those words.
BTW we are discussing justification and you are bringing up election
Read John 3 because John absolutely nails Sovereign election of God. You must read the entire chapter because the entire dialogue with Nicodemus is needed to understand verse 16.
Second, you brought up the erroneous teaching of free-will, which is nowhere in the Bible.
Third, yes let's stick with God's full, Sovereign work of justification through the atoning work of Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.
 

MennoSota

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That is pretty much how I understand you, Menno...

Thank-you...

From the Orthodox perspective, you exclude human obedience to the Call of the Gospel as a factor in Salvation...

For us, some obey, some do not...

Some are saved, and some are not...

Obedience to the Gospel Command to be repenting is a human work...

Salvation is a Work of God...

Your claim that our human obedience to Christ's Gospel is NOT a human work but is a Work of God having nothing to do with our human choice is the claim we reject... Adam fell by disobedience, and those to be saved will be chosen by God on the basis of NOT being disobedient...

In this fallen world, we choose good and evil all the time, and on the basis of our choices, and especially obedience to the Gospel of Jesus Christ, God will judge us by our actions, which are works... "Be ye repenting..." is the Gospel Command... It is given because we CAN be repenting... God does NOT repent FOR us... But He graciously works WITH us in our decision to live a repentant life... Or not to live that life... In this sense, we are 100% responsible for our Salvation, yet God is 100% alone the Giver of our Salvation... Because God is Just... And NOT because we EARN it... Nothing can earn God...

And what you do with this is say: "Well then, YOU have just usurped God's Gift of Salvation, given for free, because you ADD your repentance to HIS Grace!" And I sigh... Repentance is but the ASKING of God for His Grace of Salvation...

And the merry-go-round just goes merrily around and around...

The way out is to look to the Historical Church to find the ancient and current teachings...

But to this, you insist on Bible Verses Only...
And when I give them, you accuse me of twisting them,
and we are back on the merry-go-round, with louder music...

Thanks for chiming in...

Arsenios

My claim is that spiritually dead people are incapable of obeying God. They have no power to do so. The scripture is so very clear on this issue that it is utterly shocking to read your claim that the unregenerate can obey. If you were correct, then the cross is not necessary. But, the cross is necessary and therefore your claims are utterly wrong.
Second, God ordains that humans can make choices within His approval. Never can a human act outside of God's ordained will. Never is the human will free to do whatever it wishes. If so, humans would rule over God.
Third, the Bible so clearly tells us that no human chooses God. "There is none that seek God, not even one." Your entire argument is therefore wrong.
Fourth, those whom God chooses will hear His call. They will be adopted. They will be given faith. They will be brought to repentance. They will be justified. They will be sanctified. They will spend eternity in glorious union with their Redeemer.
All God, Arsenios. Quit adding false teaching to the gospel.
 

RichWh1

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Read John 3 because John absolutely nails Sovereign election of God. You must read the entire chapter because the entire dialogue with Nicodemus is needed to understand verse 16.
Second, you brought up the erroneous teaching of free-will, which is nowhere in the Bible.
Third, yes let's stick with God's full, Sovereign work of justification through the atoning work of Jesus Christ and only Jesus Christ.

This verse doesn’t show Sovereign election of God. It shows the method God established in order for a sinner to be saved.

Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6*That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7*Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:4-7

Does this formula exclude anyone from receiving salvation or as Jesus called it the ‘new birth’? I don’t see where anyone is excluded; all I see is a formula that all can achieve.
Where is the exclusivity?
Sovereign decrees would require exclusions.

The words ‘choice’ and ‘choose’ are in Scripture. Determinism is not!


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MennoSota

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This verse doesn’t show Sovereign election of God. It shows the method God established in order for a sinner to be saved.

Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6*That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7*Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
John 3:4-7

Does this formula exclude anyone from receiving salvation or as Jesus called it the ‘new birth’? I don’t see where anyone is excluded; all I see is a formula that all can achieve.
Where is the exclusivity?
Sovereign decrees would require exclusions.

The words ‘choice’ and ‘choose’ are in Scripture. Determinism is not!


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What does predestined mean to you?

Rich, I swam in the free-will waters as I grew up. I read the Bible and saw that it isn't taught in scripture. It's taught by men who don't understand God’s Sovereignty.
 

Pedrito

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Post #322 (Josiah):
Abraham BELIEVED (faith being "the free gift of God") THEN acted according to that faith, with the life he now had, directed by the Holy Spirit which he now had.

I request of Josiah that he direct us to the Scripture which tells us that:
- Abraham's belief (faith) was a free gift from God;
- That he had the Holy Spirit;
- And that he was actually directed by that Holy Spirit.

The meaning of any and all Scripture quoted must be true to that in the original language(s) (rather than assigning meanings that can be read into the English translations, but which are untrue to the original – a practice that is demonstrably ingrained in some religious environments).

My thanks in advance.
 

MennoSota

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Post #322 (Josiah):
Abraham BELIEVED (faith being "the free gift of God") THEN acted according to that faith, with the life he now had, directed by the Holy Spirit which he now had.

I request of Josiah that he direct us to the Scripture which tells us that:
- Abraham's belief (faith) was a free gift from God;
- That he had the Holy Spirit;
- And that he was actually directed by that Holy Spirit.

The meaning of any and all Scripture quoted must be true to that in the original language(s) (rather than assigning meanings that can be read into the English translations, but which are untrue to the original – a practice that is demonstrably ingrained in some religious environments).

My thanks in advance.

Is faith a gift from God to the elect? Ephesians 2:8-9 says yes.
Was Abram called out of Ur by God and chosen by God's covenant? The Bible says yes. Was God with Abraham on his journey and stay in Canaan? The answer is yes. Is God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? The answer is yes.
Pedrito, your narrow requests are foolish. God gave Abraham the faith to believe and God walked with Abraham and talked with Abraham. That is enough. Deny God's gift if you wish...
 

Arsenios

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God gave Abraham the faith to believe and God walked with Abraham and talked with Abraham. That is enough. Deny God's gift if you wish...

Did God tempt Abraham?

If yes, why would He do so?

Was God just tempting Himself?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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My claim is that spiritually dead people are incapable of obeying God.
They have no power to do so.
The scripture is so very clear on this issue that it is utterly shocking to read your claim that the unregenerate can obey.

Was John the Baptist baptizing regenerate or unregenerate Jews?

Were the Jews under the Law regenerate or unregenerate?

Were the Jews capable of obeying the Gospel?

Did they repent?

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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That does sum it up nicely, though. And "faith without works is dead" is the 'toughie'? :dunno:

Every scripture is a toughie if one's theology comes first and the verse must be made to fit it.
 

MennoSota

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Did God tempt Abraham?

If yes, why would He do so?

Was God just tempting Himself?

Arsenios

How does your questions relate to justification?

What are you specifically addressing with your questions about Abraham? Your questions seem entirely random and of no value. Please provide how your questions relate to justification.
 

MennoSota

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Every scripture is a toughie if one's theology comes first and the verse must be made to fit it.

Here is your problem. You imagine that one verse (essentially one sentence) exists in a vacuum and thus you can make it say anything you wish. I've seen you do this with James 2:5. Yet in the context of all scripture it becomes evident that your views don't fit with all of scripture. Therefore you must be wrong.
Secondly, the RC is notorious for doing the very thing you are complaining about.
 

MennoSota

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Was John the Baptist baptizing regenerate or unregenerate Jews?

Were the Jews under the Law regenerate or unregenerate?

Were the Jews capable of obeying the Gospel?

Did they repent?

Arsenios
John the Baptist has nothing to do with God's justification, God's regeneration of sinners or anything to do with God's salvation.
John the Baptist was sent directly to Israel to be a voice in the wilderness pointing to Messiah. His baptism was just water and was calling Israel to stop sinning. It did nothing for their spirits.
Why are you looking to the law to be your savior and justifier, Arsenios?
 

MoreCoffee

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Here is your problem. You imagine that one verse (essentially one sentence) exists in a vacuum and thus you can make it say anything you wish. I've seen you do this with James 2:5. Yet in the context of all scripture it becomes evident that your views don't fit with all of scripture. Therefore you must be wrong.
Secondly, the RC is notorious for doing the very thing you are complaining about.

James 2:5?

Here's James 2, now tell me what you mean about James 2:5, please.

James 2:1 My brothers and sisters, if you truly believe in our glorifi ed Lord, Jesus Christ, you will not discriminate between persons. 2 Suppose a person enters the synagogue where you are assembled, dressed magnifi cently and wearing a gold ring; at the same time, a poor person enters dressed in rags. 3 If you focus your attention on the well-dressed and say, “Come and sit in the best seat,” while, to the poor one you say, “Stay standing, or else sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not, in fact, made a distinction between the two? Have you not judged, using a double standard?

5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters, did God not choose the poor of this world to receive the riches of faith, and to inherit the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 Yet, you despise them! Is it not the rich who are against you, and drag you to court? 7 Do they not insult the holy name of Christ by which you are called?

8 If you keep the law of the kingdom, according to Scripture: Love your neighbour as yourself, you do well; 9 but if you make distinctions be tween persons, you break the law, and are condemned by the same law. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, but fails, in one aspect, is guilty of breaking it all. 11 For he who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not kill. If, then, you do not commit adultery but you do commit murder, you have broken the law. 12 Therefore, speak and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 There will be justice, without mercy, for those who have not shown mercy, whereas, mercy has nothing to fear of judgement. Faith is shown in action

• 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead.

18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear!

20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God.

24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave.

26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​
 

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Justification and Salvation according to Jesus Christ is belief in the Father who sent him and hearing of the word of Christ.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:24
 

RichWh1

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Can all be saved?

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:3,5


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Andrew

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Can all be saved?

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:9

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:3,5


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It's truly sad because of the many false religions, atheist who run from the gospel, mock our beliefs and will belief anything the world declares as truth as long as its not in the bible...
Hope for many as I was once an atheist, but unfortunately not everyone will do Gods will.
Jesus however DID asked the Father to forgive them for they know not what they do! Those words he spoke on the cross echos through time without ceasing! Amazing the strength of Gods spoken words!!! Loud enough still today for everyone to hear!
Does this insist that God may heed those words and have mercy on those ignorant to the gospel? According to the Vatican all unlearned men may be saved by Gods mercy as well as his Sons prayer and request to forgive his enemies.
As for those not ignorant of his word and know the truth but still reject him and his Father, walking after the World instead of the narrow Path, I believe this was his greatest peeve and these were sinful men of law and self righteousness and persecution of believers....
 

MennoSota

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James 2:5?

Here's James 2, now tell me what you mean about James 2:5, please.

James 2:1 My brothers and sisters, if you truly believe in our glorifi ed Lord, Jesus Christ, you will not discriminate between persons. 2 Suppose a person enters the synagogue where you are assembled, dressed magnifi cently and wearing a gold ring; at the same time, a poor person enters dressed in rags. 3 If you focus your attention on the well-dressed and say, “Come and sit in the best seat,” while, to the poor one you say, “Stay standing, or else sit down at my feet,” 4 have you not, in fact, made a distinction between the two? Have you not judged, using a double standard?

5 Listen, my beloved brothers and sisters, did God not choose the poor of this world to receive the riches of faith, and to inherit the kingdom, which he has promised to those who love him? 6 Yet, you despise them! Is it not the rich who are against you, and drag you to court? 7 Do they not insult the holy name of Christ by which you are called?

8 If you keep the law of the kingdom, according to Scripture: Love your neighbour as yourself, you do well; 9 but if you make distinctions be tween persons, you break the law, and are condemned by the same law. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, but fails, in one aspect, is guilty of breaking it all. 11 For he who said, Do not commit adultery, also said, Do not kill. If, then, you do not commit adultery but you do commit murder, you have broken the law. 12 Therefore, speak and behave like people who are going to be judged by the law of freedom. 13 There will be justice, without mercy, for those who have not shown mercy, whereas, mercy has nothing to fear of judgement. Faith is shown in action

• 14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, to profess faith, without showing works? Such faith has no power to save you. 15 If a brother or sister is in need of clothes or food, 16 and one of you says, “May things go well for you; be warm and satisfied,” without attending to their material needs, what good is that? 17 So, it is, for faith without deeds: it is totally dead.

18 Say to whoever challenges you, “You have faith and I have good deeds; show me your faith apart from actions and I, for my part, will show you my faith in the way I act.” 19 Do you believe there is one God? Well enough, but do not forget, that the demons, also, believe, and tremble with fear!

20 You foolish one, do you have to be convinced, that faith without deeds is useless? 21 Think of our father Abraham. Was he not justified by the act of offering his son Isaac on the altar? 22 So you see, his faith was active, along with his deeds, and became perfect by what he did. 23 The word of Scripture was thus fulfilled, Abraham believed in God so he was considered a righteous person and he was called the friend of God.

24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave.

26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.​
Yeah, I meant verse 24.
The passage you quote does not teach what you claim because the rest of scripture defines it's meaning.
 

davedajobauk

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Oh wow, the dilemma is in understanding with a closed mind


I will use 'two' of those verses, to show that God does nothing 'imperfectly'
sorry THREE, #25 was latched to #24

via-which, I will suggest to you, another VIEW


First those verses_


24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone.

25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave.

26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.





I would suggest, that you now look upon the bedridden cripple_ ?
Whom has, no less FAITH than many other believers

(bedridden) unable to do 'works' (either, good or bad) ~beyond :pray: (?)


Your 'expressed-view' indicates 'your-belief', that he/she will not, join us in Heaven ?


His word, is truth_ but the authors of that text, were human (imperfect / fallible?)
God sees EVERYTHING, where-then, man, blinds-himself with SELF-considerations

The Good Shepherd will-not, LOSE not-even a single-sheep
God, is SOLE JUDGE of every heart and soul... WE DO NOT choose, who will be allowed in Heaven



just-saying!

dave
 

Albion

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Oh wow, the dilemma is in understanding with a closed mind...

First those verses_


24 So you see, a person is justified by works, and not by faith alone. -- Because the Faith which alone saves necessarily produces Works.

25 Likewise, we read of Rahab, the prostitute, that she was acknowledged and saved, because she welcomed the spies, and showed them another way to leave. --It was Joshua who "saved" Rahab--from the sword.

26 So, just as the body is dead without its spirit, so faith, without deeds is also dead.
--That's right. A Faith that is without deeds is dead, inoperable. Only a real Faith can save.





.
 
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Arsenios

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I request of Josiah that he direct us to the Scripture which tells us that:
- Abraham's belief (faith) was a free gift from God;
- That he had the Holy Spirit;
- And that he was actually directed by that Holy Spirit.

I love your optimism!

Arsenios
 
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