Justification - Part 2

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Andrew

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What about Moses and Abraham? Were they Justified without repenting? Without baptism? Without the Cross? Were they Justified by law? Or by Faith and Works?
Moses definitely dis not go to hades as many say that before NT everyone went to hell... Moses was there along with Elijah talking to Jesus... Were they spirits? Were they justified before Christ's sacrifice?
 

Arsenios

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Is faith a gift from God to the elect? Ephesians 2:8-9 says yes.

No it doesn't...

It says that Salvation is the Gift of God...

It is given THROUGH the Faith that Christ Discipled to His Apostles...

The COST is the works of that Faith...

Because faith without works is dead...

AND...

The COST is NOT the PRICE...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Did God tempt Abraham?

If yes, why would He do so?

Was God just tempting Himself?


How does your questions relate to justification?

What are you specifically addressing with your questions about Abraham? Your questions seem entirely random and of no value. Please provide how your questions relate to justification.

Was Abraham Justified by God?

If yes, then when?

Was it before or after he was tempted by God?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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John the Baptist has nothing to do with God's justification

Thank-you...

Yet he was baptizing the Baptism of Repentance...

Which you DENY the unregenerate are able to do...

Yet they are doing it in the Bible...

And you deny that they even can...

:):):) !!!NEXT!!! :):):)

Arsenios
 

davedajobauk

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Some, although given eyes, can fail to see, 'the wood' in a forest
just as those whom have 'deep-pockets, see the wood that a forest can furnish

dave
 

MennoSota

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No it doesn't...

It says that Salvation is the Gift of God...

It is given THROUGH the Faith that Christ Discipled to His Apostles...

The COST is the works of that Faith...

Because faith without works is dead...

AND...

The COST is NOT the PRICE...

Arsenios
You are entirely wrong and proven wrong by the text.
1) Grace is extended unto salvation.
2) Faith is given as a gift from God.
3)Faith does not come from yourself, lest you boast.
4) The works are foreordained by God.
Ephesians 2:8-10
It's all right there, Arsenios.
 

MennoSota

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Did God tempt Abraham?

If yes, why would He do so?

Was God just tempting Himself?




Was Abraham Justified by God?

If yes, then when?

Was it before or after he was tempted by God?

Arsenios

When did God tempt Abraham. What verses are you referencing? I am not following your thoughts on this.
God justified Abraham by choosing him out of all people's and giving him faith, which pointed him to Canaan even though Abraham had no sight as to what would happen.
Abraham did some really bad stuff (as did his off-spring), yet he, and they, were chosen. There works did not justify them before God. God chose to justify them by His grace alone.
 

MennoSota

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Duck quick!

Those other three fingers are shooting holes through you!

Arsenios
I'm sure you're attempting a joke. It went over me. No need to duck.
 

MennoSota

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Thank-you...

Yet he was baptizing the Baptism of Repentance...

Which you DENY the unregenerate are able to do...

Yet they are doing it in the Bible...

And you deny that they even can...

:):):) !!!NEXT!!! :):):)

Arsenios
It wasn't a repentance unto salvation. An Imam could perform the same baptism of repentance for a Muslim. It has no effect before God.
 

psalms 91

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It wasn't a repentance unto salvation. An Imam could perform the same baptism of repentance for a Muslim. It has no effect before God.
Yet it pleased God otherwise I dont think Jesus would have done it and had Gods voice say He was well pleased
 

MennoSota

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Yet it pleased God otherwise I dont think Jesus would have done it and had Gods voice say He was well pleased
It was a part of Judean culture of the day. Jesus came to the Jews. We don't live under the Mosaic Covenant, therefore it is of no value to our discussion of justification.
But, for a person who wishes to be justified under the law, it would be a natural text to reference.
 

davedajobauk

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What about Moses and Abraham? Were they Justified without repenting? Without baptism? Without the Cross? Were they Justified by law? Or by Faith and Works?
Moses definitely dis not go to hades as many say that before NT everyone went to hell... Moses was there along with Elijah talking to Jesus... Were they spirits? Were they justified before Christ's sacrifice?



I do believe that they went to Purgatory [first ?] (please correct me)

Purgatory ~ the half-way house, the place for last-minute reflection and maybe repentance ?


Mary was a Roman Catholic.... as were her parents, and her husband and perhaps MOST, of their children

We were not unequally yoked.... Mary attended St Thomas' and I attended St. James
(not, because it wasn't so-far to walk, as St. Thomas' :) )


We have visited each other's HOUSE OF GOD for specific services that we shared
:amen:

dave
 

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I do believe that they went to Purgatory [first ?] (please correct me)

Purgatory ~ the half-way house, the place for last-minute reflection and maybe repentance ?


Mary was a Roman Catholic.... as were her parents, and her husband and perhaps MOST, of their children

We were not unequally yoked.... Mary attended St Thomas' and I attended St. James
(not, because it wasn't so-far to walk, as St. Thomas' :) )


We have visited each other's HOUSE OF GOD for specific services that we shared
:amen:

dave

It took me a second to realize that the Mary you were referring to was not Mary, Jesus' mother but Mary your wife! I was wondering why you were making a joke about Mary, Jesus' mother being Catholic. Then I realized my error!! Ooops. Big oops.
 

Arsenios

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When did God tempt Abraham. What verses are you referencing? I am not following your thoughts on this.

You do not know that it was God Who tempted Abraham???

Have you not read Gen 22:1?

God justified Abraham by choosing him out of all people's and giving him faith,
which pointed him to Canaan even though Abraham had no sight as to what would happen.
Abraham did some really bad stuff (as did his off-spring), yet he, and they, were chosen.
There works did not justify them before God.
God chose to justify them by His grace alone.

Then why did God tempt Abraham?

Why did Abraham have to pass this test of temptation by God?

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I'm sure you're attempting a joke. It went over me. No need to duck.

Whenever you point your gnarled finger of accusation against another...

You have three more pointing at yourself...

From the same fist...

Point at something and look at your hand!

Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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You mean: Why did God test Abraham's faith?
The answer is: Because God chose to.
You do not know that it was God Who tempted Abraham???

Have you not read Gen 22:1?



Then why did God tempt Abraham?

Why did Abraham have to pass this test of temptation by God?

Arsenios
Here's the passage. I note that God had spent years sanctifying Abraham and the process of God growing Abraham's faith is shown in the last verse
22 After these things God tested Abraham and said to him, “Abraham!” And he said, “Here I am.” 2 He said, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” 3 So Abraham rose early in the morning, saddled his donkey, and took two of his young men with him, and his son Isaac. And he cut the wood for the burnt offering and arose and went to the place of which God had told him. 4 On the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes and saw the place from afar. 5 Then Abraham said to his young men, “Stay here with the donkey; I and the boy will go over there and worship and come again to you.” 6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son. And he took in his hand the fire and the knife. So they went both of them together. 7 And Isaac said to his father Abraham, “My father!” And he said, “Here I am, my son.” He said, “Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”
8 Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.” So they went both of them together.
Earlier in Abraham's life, Abraham had doubted and trusted his own self rather than God. Was Abraham going to trust himself or God. This time, the answer is that Abraham trusted God.
 

MennoSota

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Whenever you point your gnarled finger of accusation against another...

You have three more pointing at yourself...

From the same fist...

Point at something and look at your hand!

Arsenios
Does that come from the EO handbook of dogma?
 

MennoSota

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Here are passages regarding faith and works. In them we discern that God chooses to give grace, faith which produces good works and justification. Looking at the other passages that address faith, we can see what James is talking about in his passage on faith and works. James is addressing the same issue that Paul is addressing in Romans 5 and 6 where there were some people who were flippantly saying they have faith and then were living like pagans. Both Paul and James condemn these people.
I meet people today who sin like pagans, but claim to believe. There life shows no connection to Jesus. Their argument is the same one that James and Paul address. Just saying you believe is worthless. Faith is not static. Faith is not silent. Faith is not empty words. Faith is living. Faith is a great gift. Faith is identified by what it actually does. Faith shows (justifies) the person before men by making the claim and being active. Faith shows (justifies) the person before God by God's gracious, unmerited favor, and acting according to God's ordained will.
Before men we are justified by our works. Before God we are justified by God's grace.
Here are the passages:
Hebrews 11: 6,8-10,13-19
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. 10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14 For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.15 If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son, 18 of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 19 He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead, from which, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.
James 2:14-24
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! 20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Romans 5:1-11
5 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Romans 6:1-2, 5-14
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
 

davedajobauk

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Laemchen said:
It took me a second to realize that the Mary you were referring to was not Mary, Jesus' mother but Mary your wife!
I was wondering why you were making a joke about Mary, Jesus' mother being Catholic. Then I realized
my error!! Ooops. Big oops.


Bless!

You are correct, I do not mock other-churches...
would treat everyone as I would hope they will treat me
Not a problem_ :thumbsup:

Had you come out waving a club, you would have quickly seen my White Flag


:hearts::hearts:


This 'sort of thing' is very-probably what happened at CF

I was reporting NOT ATTACKING
Unfortunate..
but, as my friends tell me "IT IS THEIR LOSS"

dave
 
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