Justification - Part 2

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Arsenios

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I'm not a Pharisee.

No, you are not...

But you are dancing along the edge of the trap that caused the Pharisee to not receive Justification...

The trap that could not touch the Publican...

And I also showed you the trap of accusing accusers, how treacherous it is...

"A heart that is broken and humbled God will not despise..." (Ps. 51)

Arsenios
 

Albion

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I will take the Publican's side every time...
I AM a liar and an adulterer and a murdeerer...
I AM like all sinners, and the worst of them...
I am so deplorable that I cannot even raise my eyes from the dirt...
I beat my breast with my fist in sheer despair...
In fear and trembling, as Paul writes...


Or maybe it is every other time?
 

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I mean, don't you just thank God that He has chosen you for Salvation?
That you are not like other men are?
Liars and adulterers and murderers?

I always thank God for all He does for me.

Have I ever thanked Him that I'm not like other men? Why would you accuse me of such things? Why the attack on me when all I've done is proclaim Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and say that's my assurance for salvation?
 

RichWh1

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Salvation cannot be lost or forfeited. Jesus said so.
John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29*My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.


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Albion

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IS there another time?

The time is now...

A.

Just commenting on the sequence of posts here. *Every other* as in alternating.
 

MoreCoffee

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Yes, that passage was written for me. It was written for all humankind and inspired by God so that we can believe in the Savior. If you don't believe in that passage then why are you believing the one passage about doing works? Why are you believing any of it?

1John 5:1 All those, who believe that Jesus is the Anointed, are born of God; whoever loves the Father, loves the Son. 2 How may we know, that we love the children of God? If we love God and fulfil his commands, 3 for God's love requires us to keep his commands. In fact, his commandments are not a burden 4 because all those born of God overcome the world. And the victory, which overcomes the world, is our faith. 5 Who has overcome the world? The one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6 Jesus Christ was acknowledged through water, but also through blood. Not only water, but water and blood. And the Spirit, too, witnesses to him, for the Spirit is truth. 7 There are, then, three testimonies: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood, and these three witnesses agree. 9 If we accept human testimony, with greater reason must we accept that of God, given in favour of his Son. 10 If you believe in the Son of God, you have God’s testimony in you. But those who do not believe, make God a liar, since they do not believe his words when he witnesses to his Son. 11 What has God said? That he has granted us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 The one who has the Son has life, those who do not have the Son of God do not have life.

13 I write you, then, all these things, that you may know, that you have eternal life, all you, who believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 Through him we are fully confident that whatever we ask, according to his will, he will grant us. 15 If we know that he hears us whenever we ask, we know that we already have what we asked of him. 16 If you see your brother committing sin, a sin which does not lead to death, pray for him, and God will give life to your brother. I speak, of course, of the sin which does not lead to death. There is also a sin that leads to death; I do not speak of praying about this. 17 Every kind of wrongdoing is sin, but not all sin leads to death. 18 We know, that those born of God do not sin, but The One who was born of God, protects them, and the evil one does not touch them 19 We know, that we belong to God, while the whole world lies in evil. 20 We know, that the Son of God has come and has given us power to know the truth. We are in him who is true, his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God, and eternal life. 21 My dear children, keep yourselves from idols.


Looking at verse 13 and what it appears to mean. In his conclusion, saint John repeats what he said throughout the letter: you who believe, appreciate what you have. Do not underestimate the step you took in accepting Christ. Explore and look for the riches which are meant for you and which are found in “Him who loves us” (Rev 1:5). and in verse 16 saint John writes I do not speak of praying about this. This sentence is somehow short, he implies: “with the certainty that God will give life to the sinner.” The will of God remains a mystery, whatever be the confidence we have in him.
 

Arsenios

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I always thank God for all He does for me.

Good - So do I... So we cannot fault the Pharisee here for thanking God then...

Have I ever thanked Him that I'm not like other men?

Have you been given unmerited Salvation?

Have most others NOT been given such unmerited Salvation?

Why would you accuse me of such things?

It was a question, not an accusation...
Did not God give you unmerited Salvation?
Does He give it to ALL men?

Why the attack on me when all I've done is proclaim Christ crucified for the forgiveness of sins and say that's my assurance for salvation?

IF the attack were on you, it would not be about your belief that God justifies the unrepentant so that they can then repent... He did that for you, did He not? Did He do it for all??? I am simply attempting to show you the traps in the beliefs that you hold...

If Christ Crucified is everyone's assurance of Salvation, then all are Saved...

I know you know God and have walked with Him since childhood...

And I know that there are trials that God in His Great Mercy permits...

I am not attacking you - I am simply showing you a weakness and its danger in your understanding of the God you know... Knowing God is one thing... Understanding Him is quite another...

Please forgive me for being so offensive to you...

I have no desire to irritate you or hurt you here...

We can drop this if you prefer...

Arsenios
 
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Arsenios

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Just commenting on the sequence of posts here. *Every other* as in alternating.

OK - I'm the daaaah!

So what's new then anyway! :)

Arsenios
 
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MennoSota

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It was a question, not an accusation...
Did not God give you unmerited Salvation?
Does He give it to ALL men?
No, God chooses whom He wills to graciously pardon and He chooses, justly, not to pardon others.
IF the attack were on you, it would not be about your belief that God justifies the unrepentant so that they can then repent... He did that for you, did He not? Did He do it for all???
No, he didn't. His atonement is limited to those whom He elects to atone. The rest, justly, die in their sins.
If Christ Crucified is everyone's assurance of Salvation, then all are Saved...
No. Christ's atonement is limited to those for whom he elected to pardon through unmerited favor.

Do you recognize the massive flaws in your Arminianism, which lead you to false conclusions?
 

Andrew

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The Law convicts us in the NT as a tutor but we in Christ fulfill the old law according to scripture

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:24


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Arsenios

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No, God chooses whom He wills to graciously pardon and He chooses, justly, not to pardon others.

Then do you not thank Him for choosing you to pardon and not the other guy?

No, he didn't. His atonement is limited to those whom He elects to atone. The rest, justly, die in their sins.

So do you thank Him for being among the elect and not like all the others?

No. Christ's atonement is limited to those for whom he elected to pardon through unmerited favor.

You must be VERY grateful for Him choosing to pardon you and not those others just like you...

Do you recognize the massive flaws in your Arminianism, which lead you to false conclusions?

The Pharisee also thanked God for making himself to be one of God's Elect...

Recognizing massive flaws is a good thing...

Arsenios
 
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MoreCoffee

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The Law convicts us in the NT as a tutor but we in Christ fulfill the old law according to scripture

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Galatians 3:24


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The law and the gospel are not two forces vying for control of human lives. That's a fantasy. The Law is, as you observed, a tutor to lead us to Christ. Its purpose is to show what is right and what is wrong. That's an idea that was obvious as far back as the days of Moses. The law is not bad, it is holy, just, and good says saint Paul. And if you read the law through new testament eyes you see it as it should be seen - as fencing around what is good and loving and kind while at the same time warning about what is divisive, wicked, and hurtful. But the gospel is not another kind of law. It is not new and better laws. The gospel is for spiritual maturity - for adults - while the law was for children in the faith. The period of childhood is over because Jesus has come. The gospel is the proclamation that God became man and he did that so than men may become like God. Saint Paul says:
Galatians 3:23 Before the time of faith had come, the law confined us, and kept us in custody, until the time in which faith would show up. 24 The law, then, was serving as a slave, to look after us until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. 25 With the coming of faith, we are no longer submitted to this guidance. 26 Now, in Christ Jesus, all of you are sons and daughters of God, through faith. 27 All of you, who were given to Christ through Baptism, have put on Christ. 28 Here, there is no longer any difference between Jew or Greek, or between slave or freed, or between man and woman: but all of you are one, in Christ Jesus. 29 And because you belong to Christ, you are of Abraham’s race and you are to inherit God’s promise.​
The Pharisee who Jesus said prayed thanking God that he was not like other men, not a murderer nor a thief nor this or that wicked thing. That Pharisee relied on his descent from Abraham as one of the chosen people of God and that was, in his mind, his ticket to eternal life with God. The Pharisee was one of the elect according to his own reckoning. He was born into the right people and was a religious man who observed the laws and rules that his people had received from Moses and Moses had heard the law from God himself so what could be better and more sure as a pathway to heaven than that! But Jesus' point in telling the story of that Pharisee was that the Pharisee being of "the elect" and proclaiming himself to be of the elect and thanking God for his election was all wrong his descent and proud knowledge of his election was all to no avail. The man that God justifies is the one who humbly admits his fault and prays for mercy from God. That is the contrast between the right and the wrong use of the law. The Pharisee knew the law and thought he was safe because he was elect and obeyed the rules about tithing and not killing etcetera and he was wrong because he had no humility and no repentance for the wicked things he thought and did and especially for his pride in prayer. The publican on the other hand knew the law but didn't appeal to his tithing practise nor to his obedience regarding the commandments no, he made his appeal by saying "I am a sinner, have mercy on me Lord, I do not deserve it, but have mercy on me, a sinner" he had humility and a better appreciation of who and what he was and because of that God heard him and had mercy on him. Jesus told several parables about mercy to illustrate what it meant in practical terms. The master who forgave great debt, the prodigal, the good Samaritan are all stories about mercy. It is mercy and justice that God wants, mercy towards the repentant and justice for those who are wronged; like the widow who entreated the judge day in and day out until she received justice. Anyway the idea is that Justification comes from God by means of repentance and mercy shown to others and humility before God. There's no room for pride and boasting about being elect when facing God there is only room for humble penitence and a cry for mercy. The faithful are justified by God who makes them just and teaches them repentance and compassion and to show mercy. In the old testament God said that what he requires of the faithful is to do justice and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
 

MennoSota

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Then do you not thank Him for choosing you to pardon and not the other guy?



So do you thank Him for being among the elect and not like all the others?



You must be VERY grateful for Him choosing to pardon you and not those others just like you...



The Pharisee also thanked God for making himself to be one of God's Elect...

Recognizing massive flaws is a good thing...

Arsenios
Is God obligated to choose anyone? Is God just if He chooses to judge each person according to their sin and thus condemn them for eternity in hell?
Who can discern the mind of God in knowing why He chooses to grant a pardon via Jesus work of atonement? All we know is that He made His choice before the foundation of the world and He knows they will be taken out of rebellion and brought into reconciliation with Him.
How does Paul respond to your question? He tells us that if his damnation meant the salvation of all Israel, he would wish it to be. Does that sound like one who pridefully thanks God for not being left to justly die in his sins?
There is no child of God who looks around and gloats that others die in sin. We do what our Father asked and we plead with people to be reconciled with God, not knowing whom it is that God will open their ears to hear and walk into God's arms. We know that we once were blind and deaf to God. We know that if God had not graciously made us alive in Christ Jesus, by His will and choosing, we would certainly be dead in our trespasses and sins. We have nothing to boast about. We have nothing to be prideful about. It was, is and always will be all God's work and nothing of ourselves. So, no, there is no joy in seeing anyone die in their trespasses and sins. There is profound sadness. But, it is not my authorization to save anyone. God and God alone makes a person alive in Christ by His choice and His choice alone. You and I have no say in the matter...ever. We are not given that role or authority to make that decision. The Creator of the world makes that decision and we are at His mercy because God is SOVEREIGN!!!
 

MoreCoffee

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Is God obligated to choose anyone?

Do you think God is obligated to keep his promises? Did God promise to justify those who repent and believe the gospel? Is your assurance of salvation resting on God's promises? Have you repented and believed the gospel? Is God reliable? Is God obligated to save the repentant who believe the gospel?

Is God just if He chooses to judge each person according to their sin and thus condemn them for eternity in hell?
Who can discern the mind of God in knowing why He chooses to grant a pardon via Jesus work of atonement? All we know is that He made His choice before the foundation of the world and He knows they will be taken out of rebellion and brought into reconciliation with Him.
How does Paul respond to your question? He tells us that if his damnation meant the salvation of all Israel, he would wish it to be. Does that sound like one who pridefully thanks God for not being left to justly die in his sins?
There is no child of God who looks around and gloats that others die in sin. We do what our Father asked and we plead with people to be reconciled with God, not knowing whom it is that God will open their ears to hear and walk into God's arms. We know that we once were blind and deaf to God. We know that if God had not graciously made us alive in Christ Jesus, by His will and choosing, we would certainly be dead in our trespasses and sins. We have nothing to boast about. We have nothing to be prideful about. It was, is and always will be all God's work and nothing of ourselves. So, no, there is no joy in seeing anyone die in their trespasses and sins. There is profound sadness. But, it is not my authorization to save anyone. God and God alone makes a person alive in Christ by His choice and His choice alone. You and I have no say in the matter...ever. We are not given that role or authority to make that decision. The Creator of the world makes that decision and we are at His mercy because God is SOVEREIGN!!!
 

Lamb

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Is God obligated to choose anyone? Is God just if He chooses to judge each person according to their sin and thus condemn them for eternity in hell?
Who can discern the mind of God in knowing why He chooses to grant a pardon via Jesus work of atonement? All we know is that He made His choice before the foundation of the world and He knows they will be taken out of rebellion and brought into reconciliation with Him.
How does Paul respond to your question? He tells us that if his damnation meant the salvation of all Israel, he would wish it to be. Does that sound like one who pridefully thanks God for not being left to justly die in his sins?
There is no child of God who looks around and gloats that others die in sin. We do what our Father asked and we plead with people to be reconciled with God, not knowing whom it is that God will open their ears to hear and walk into God's arms. We know that we once were blind and deaf to God. We know that if God had not graciously made us alive in Christ Jesus, by His will and choosing, we would certainly be dead in our trespasses and sins. We have nothing to boast about. We have nothing to be prideful about. It was, is and always will be all God's work and nothing of ourselves. So, no, there is no joy in seeing anyone die in their trespasses and sins. There is profound sadness. But, it is not my authorization to save anyone. God and God alone makes a person alive in Christ by His choice and His choice alone. You and I have no say in the matter...ever. We are not given that role or authority to make that decision. The Creator of the world makes that decision and we are at His mercy because God is SOVEREIGN!!!

There is no child of God who looks around and gloats that others die in sin....and There is no joy in seeing anyone die in their trespasses. These two quotes from above of yours show that perhaps you mistake someone's wording to mean something it never did. I have not seen one Christian eager that someone else is not going to have eternal life...not here on the site nor here in person. I think you are mistaken in how you perceive things. Having joy over the assurance of salvation is not prideful and in no way does it mean that they're happy that someone else might go to hell. That's a horrible thing.

David in the Old Testament stated that he would go to be with his dead baby in assurance that God would save him and he would have eternal life. That assurance is not pride. It's not boasting. It's a trust in the Almighty God who wants His children to be with Him.

Edited to add...
After school shootings we read about some of the children saying they were grateful God saved them. That isn't boasting. And it isn't saying they're glad the others got shot. Looking to the Lord and trusting does not mean that they don't want the same for other people.
 

MoreCoffee

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There is no child of God who looks around and gloats that others die in sin....and There is no joy in seeing anyone die in their trespasses.

Do you really believe that? It sounds very pious and good doesn't it? How about Adolf Hitler? What about the Babylonians who sacked Jerusalem? Do you recall the verse that says "Happy is he who seizes your infants, and dashes them against the rocks!" (Ps 137:9). And the Psalm saying "The One enthroned in heaven laughs; Jehovah looks at them in derision." (Ps 2:4) So despite the presence of statements like "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Eze 33:11) there is a note of pleasure expressed in the death and destruction of enemies and of the wicked. What a Christian makes of those verses can be interesting to learn.

These two quotes from above of yours show that perhaps you mistake someone's wording to mean something it never did. I have not seen one Christian eager that someone else is not going to have eternal life...not here on the site nor here in person. I think you are mistaken in how you perceive things. Having joy over the assurance of salvation is not prideful and in no way does it mean that they're happy that someone else might go to hell. That's a horrible thing.

David in the Old Testament stated that he would go to be with his dead baby in assurance that God would save him and he would have eternal life. That assurance is not pride. It's not boasting. It's a trust in the Almighty God who wants His children to be with Him.

Edited to add...
After school shootings we read about some of the children saying they were grateful God saved them. That isn't boasting. And it isn't saying they're glad the others got shot. Looking to the Lord and trusting does not mean that they don't want the same for other people.
 

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I believe we do not take joy that humans will go to hell but we do appreciate having a just God. There is a HUGE difference. For you to imply that the Christians on this site are thrilled about anyone going to hell is not backed up with evidence but only conjecture on your part.

Whenever people run out of facts to back up their claim this is what I see happening on any forum...

*they resort to flaming
*they resort to tangents
*they resort to belittling

This thread surely has gone off topic by far off tangents and there is now belittling with the suggestion that we have Pharisees because there are people who boast that God saves us and implying that there are members here who take joy that others are going to hell. All false of course. Let's just get back to Justification or let the thread die the death it now deserves.
 

MoreCoffee

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I believe we do not take joy that humans will go to hell but we do appreciate having a just God. There is a HUGE difference. For you to imply that the Christians on this site are thrilled about anyone going to hell

It was wise of you not to quote my post when you are misrepresenting it. What I actually wrote is
Do you really believe that? It sounds very pious and good doesn't it? How about Adolf Hitler? What about the Babylonians who sacked Jerusalem? Do you recall the verse that says "Happy is he who seizes your infants, and dashes them against the rocks!" (Ps 137:9). And the Psalm saying "The One enthroned in heaven laughs; Jehovah looks at them in derision." (Ps 2:4) So despite the presence of statements like "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Eze 33:11) there is a note of pleasure expressed in the death and destruction of enemies and of the wicked. What a Christian makes of those verses can be interesting to learn.​
so please, none of this "you imply that Christians on this site" flimflam. I implied nothing of the sort but you may have inferred it erroneously.
is not backed up with evidence but only conjecture on your part.

Whenever people run out of facts to back up their claim this is what I see happening on any forum...

*they resort to flaming
*they resort to tangents
*they resort to belittling

This thread surely has gone off topic by far off tangents and there is now belittling with the suggestion that we have Pharisees because there are people who boast that God saves us and implying that there are members here who take joy that others are going to hell. All false of course. Let's just get back to Justification or let the thread die the death it now deserves.
 

Albion

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Do you really believe that? It sounds very pious and good doesn't it? How about Adolf Hitler? What about the Babylonians who sacked Jerusalem? Do you recall the verse that says "Happy is he who seizes your infants, and dashes them against the rocks!" (Ps 137:9). And the Psalm saying "The One enthroned in heaven laughs; Jehovah looks at them in derision." (Ps 2:4) So despite the presence of statements like "Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord Jehovah, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?" (Eze 33:11) there is a note of pleasure expressed in the death and destruction of enemies and of the wicked. What a Christian makes of those verses can be interesting to learn.

It looks like "child of God" was picked up from Menno and commented on by Lamm. And it appears as though Menno meant the term to refer to believers, not to all humans who, having been created by God are his children in one sense. Adolf Hitler, the Babylonians, et al were not Christians.
 
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