Justification - Part 2

[MennoSota]

Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is available to the faithful but it is not guaranteed...

What does "I will never leave you nor forsake you" mean to you?
Does ""Chosen from before the foundation of the world" mean, tossed aside if you p!$$ me off?
Does Jesus story of searching for the lost sheep mean he tosses them away when they go astray?
If I proclaim my actions or my own, human generated belief, as the means by which God redeems me, then I am deluding myself. If all glory, all praise, all means of redemption is placed, by faith, in Christ and Christ alone, then Christ has gripped me, chosen me, cleansed me, healed me and adopted me. He will never leave me nor forsake me. This is Jesus promise to me. He doesn't ever break his promise...ever.

 

[Arsenios]

How about this.
Instead of asking are you confident in your salvation, instead ask
"Are you confident in your Savior to save you?"

NOW you are talking!

Glory to God in ALL things!!

Absolute confidence in God...

Absolute confidence in repentance...

Absolute reliance on God in repenting...

And certainty that we can fall from God's Grace if we turn from Him...

And certainty that we CAN turn from God...

And confidence in our struggle to NOT turn from Him...

That struggle is ours...

Our success is His...

Great post, Lammchen!

 

[Arsenios]

What does "I will never leave you nor forsake you" mean to you?
Does ""Chosen from before the foundation of the world" mean, tossed aside if you p!$$ me off?
Does Jesus story of searching for the lost sheep mean he tosses them away when they go astray?

What does the Apostle Paul say of his Calling?

1Co 9:16
For though I am evangellizing, I have nothing to glory of:
for necessity is laid upon me;
But, woe is unto me, if ever I should not be evangellizing!

Paul is well aware that he too is capable of falling from God's Grace...

And YOUR Calling, and MY Calling, are MUCH LESS exalted
than that Calling of the Holy Apostle Paul of Tarsus...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Absolute confidence in God...

That's Gospel talk!

Absolute confidence in repentance...

That's Law & Gospel talk!

Absolute reliance on God in repenting...

That's Gospel Talk!

And certainty that we can fall from God's Grace if we turn from Him...

That's Law Talk! For those in despair because of the Law they can remember that Jesus said He would be with us always and to remember that our sins are forgiven! Because that's Gospel talk!

And certainty that we CAN turn from God...

That's Law talk!

And confidence in our struggle to NOT turn from Him...

That's Law talk!

That struggle is ours...

That's Law talk!

Our success is His...

That's Gospel talk!

 

[MennoSota]

What does the Apostle Paul say of his Calling?

1Co 9:16
For though I am evangellizing, I have nothing to glory of:
for necessity is laid upon me;
But, woe is unto me, if ever I should not be evangellizing!

Paul is well aware that he too is capable of falling from God's Grace...

And YOUR Calling, and MY Calling, are MUCH LESS exalted
than that Calling of the Holy Apostle Paul of Tarsus...

Arsenios

You realize that his comment has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation, justification or sanctification...don't you?
1 Corinthians 9
[16]Yet preaching the Good News is not something I can boast about. I am compelled by God to do it. How terrible for me if I didn’t preach the Good News!
Have you not read how the prophets would feel weighted down if they did not speak God's message when God gave them the message?
Arsenios, you seem to be bent upon working to gain God's approval and rejecting the truth that Jesus already gained God's approval and your only task is to rest in Christ and thus remain in step with God's Spirit.

 

[MoreCoffee]

That's Gospel talk!



That's Law & Gospel talk!



That's Gospel Talk!



That's Law Talk! For those in despair because of the Law they can remember that Jesus said He would be with us always and to remember that our sins are forgiven! Because that's Gospel talk!



That's Law talk!



That's Law talk!



That's Law talk!



That's Gospel talk!

That's gibberish.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I absolutely understand what you're attempting to say.

It is not attempting to say it is simply saying (writing really). The apostle wrote it too. "Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall." (1Cor 10.12) No one is immune from uncertainty nor from the possibility of a fall no matter how self confident they are and no matter how much they proclaim their own absolute certainty of their own salvation.

Hear this, Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. I have received the revelation of the Savior by God's Word. He has not failed me and I am confident that I will have eternal life with Him.

 

[Lamb]

It is not attempting to say it is simply saying (writing really). The apostle wrote it too. "Everyone, no matter how firmly he thinks he is standing, must be careful he does not fall." (1Cor 10.12) No one is immune from uncertainty nor from the possibility of a fall no matter how self confident they are and no matter how much they proclaim their own absolute certainty of their own salvation.

Yes, the Law tells us we can fall away...but look further into the next sentence of that very piece you chose to use and that is where we find comfort...

1 Corinthians 10:13
And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

 

[Lamb]

That's gibberish.

Would you like me to explain it for you?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yes, the Law tells us we can fall away...but look further into the next sentence of that very piece you chose to use and that is where we find comfort...

1 Corinthians 10:13
And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Time will tell if it is God who gives self confidence or if it is self deceived human pride or a spirit of deception misleading some people. 1Corinthians 10:1 Let me remind you, brothers and sisters, about our ancestors. All of them were under the cloud and all crossed the sea. 2 All underwent the baptism of the land and of the sea to join Moses; 3 and all of them ate from the same spiritual manna; 4 and all of them drank from the same spiritual drink. For you know, that they drank from a spiritual rock following them, and the rock was Christ. 5 However, most of them did not please God, and the desert was strewn with their bodies. 6 All of this happened as an example for us, so that we might not become people of evil desires, as they did. 7 Do not follow idols, as some of them did, and Scripture says:

The people sat down to eat and drink and stood up for orgy.​

8 Let us not fall into sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day, twenty-three thousand of them fell dead. 9 And let us not tempt the Lord, as some of them did, and were killed by serpents; 10 nor grumble, as some of them did, and were cut down by the destroying angel. 11 These things happened to them, as an example, and they were written as a warning, for us, as the last times come upon us. 12 Therefore, if you think you stand, beware, lest you fall. 13 No trial greater than human endurance has overcome you. God is faithful and will not let you be tempted beyond your strength. He will give you, together with the temptation, the strength to escape and to resist. Self confidence is a dangerous road to tread make sure that no one walks down it thinking that it is the road to heaven.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Would you like me to explain it for you?

You could return to your post and make it clear what each of your catch phrases was intended to teach. "that's law" and "that's gospel" is just gibberish. The holy scriptures are not divided into "law" bits and "gospel" bits nor was brother Arsenios' post. Your post plays to a Lutheran readership that is steeped in the dividing theology that says "this is law" and "this is gospel" but neither brother Arsenios nor I am Lutherans and - speaking for myself - this law/gospel theological dichotomy looks like nonsense.

 

[Lamb]

1 John 5:11-13

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

 

[MoreCoffee]

1 John 5:11-13

And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Is that passage about you? Does it say "And this is the testimony: God has given Lämmchen eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to Lämmchen who believes in the name of the Son of God so that Lämmchen may know that Lämmchen has eternal life"? No? Of course it does not mention Lämmchen by name and Lämmchen applies the passage to herself for all sorts of reasons and is not wrong to apply it to herself as long as she is in fact in Christ. The passage is of great comfort to those who are in Christ. And we know we are in Christ how? By loving the brethren as Christ loves his church. That is how we know we are his people. By living a life of loving service in the body of Christ. That is the way to be assured of one's salvation. Not by self confident assertion but by actually living the life of gospel love for the brethren and serving them as Christ commands.

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, the Law tells us we can fall away...

That was Paul telling us that we CAN fall away...

1 Corinthians 10:13
And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Yes, God is faithful...
You CAN FALL even when He does not permit temptation beyond what you can bear...
And you CAN FALL when tempted, even if He provides a way out...

Lucifer, the best of the best of all the angels fell...
Our security is in the humility of living a repentant life to the end...
It is not in our self-assured boasting that we cannot fall...
That was the boast of the Pharisee...

"I thank you Lord for not making me like the sinners, and especially that Publican over there!"
He was filled with self-assurance that HE was God's CHOSEN...

Please just be careful...

Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

Is that passage about you? Does it say "And this is the testimony: God has given Lämmchen eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to Lämmchen who believes in the name of the Son of God so that Lämmchen may know that Lämmchen has eternal life"? No? Of course it does not mention Lämmchen by name and Lämmchen applies the passage to herself for all sorts of reasons and is not wrong to apply it to herself as long as she is in fact in Christ. The passage is of great comfort to those who are in Christ. And we know we are in Christ how? By loving the brethren as Christ loves his church. That is how we know we are his people. By living a life of loving service in the body of Christ. That is the way to be assured of one's salvation. Not by self confident assertion but by actually living the life of gospel love for the brethren and serving them as Christ commands.

Yes, that passage was written for me. It was written for all humankind and inspired by God so that we can believe in the Savior. If you don't believe in that passage then why are you believing the one passage about doing works? Why are you believing any of it?

 

[Lamb]

That was Paul telling us that we CAN fall away...



Yes, God is faithful...
You CAN FALL even when He does not permit temptation beyond what you can bear...
And you CAN FALL when tempted, even if He provides a way out...

Lucifer, the best of the best of all the angels fell...
Our security is in the humility of living a repentant life to the end...
It is not in our self-assured boasting that we cannot fall...
That was the boast of the Pharisee...

"I thank you Lord for not making me like the sinners, and especially that Publican over there!"
He was filled with self-assurance that HE was God's CHOSEN...

Please just be careful...

Arsenios

Yes, it was Paul stating the Law. He knew the difference between Law and Gospel very well as we can see in his letters. The Law will always accuse us. That's what your post is doing. It accuses. The Gospel will not accuse but bring comfort that we have a Savior. Our security is not in what we do by the Law but what the Savior has done...that's the Good News that the disciples went out to proclaim!

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, it was Paul stating the Law. He knew the difference between Law and Gospel very well as we can see in his letters. The Law will always accuse us. That's what your post is doing. It accuses. The Gospel will not accuse but bring comfort that we have a Savior. Our security is not in what we do by the Law but what the Savior has done...that's the Good News that the disciples went out to proclaim!

Please just be careful...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The Law will always accuse us.
That's what your post is doing.
It accuses.

This is the trap of accusation:

Accusing others of accusing...

It is really hard to avoid...

Please be careful...


Arsenios

 

[Lamb]

This is the trap of the accusation of the Pharisee...
Accusing others of accusing...

Please be careful...


Arsenios

I'm not a Pharisee. I've described what the Law does and I've told you that your post follows what the law does. I've proclaimed Christ Jesus as Savior. That's not a Pharisee by any means. It was the Pharisees who trusted in their own merits instead of the Messiah...so maybe I'm not the one to be warned?

 

[Arsenios]

It was the Pharisees who trusted in their own merits instead of the Messiah...

The Pharisees trusted God's Law given them by Moses and administered by the Levites with abundant Signs...
And against the Publican, the Pharisee thanked God for not being made like the Publican, a sinner...
He thanked God for the Gift God had given him of being one of the Chosen Ones of Israel...
For being one of the Keepers of the Law God gave them through Moses...
In the Pharisitical mind, God is totally responsible for whatever they are...

I mean, don't you just thank God that He has chosen you for Salvation?
That you are not like other men are?
Liars and adulterers and murderers?

Luke 18:11
"God, I thank thee,
that I am not as other men are,
extortioners, unjust, adulterers,
or even as this publican. "

I will take the Publican's side every time...
I AM a liar and an adulterer and a murdeerer...
I AM like all sinners, and the worst of them...
I am so deplorable that I cannot even raise my eyes from the dirt...
I beat my breast with my fist in sheer despair...
In fear and trembling, as Paul writes...

And we know which one was justified...
It was NOT the one proclaiming his certaintly of Salvation...
But the one despairing of it...

Arsenios