Justification - Part 2

[MoreCoffee]

I wouldn't have trusted in the Savior if it weren't for God revealing Him to me. So, whether you think the verse applies to me or not, I have a Savior. Paul had confidence in the Savior and not himself or his works. It's not wrong to be the same way.

You are right to assert that God revealed the Lord Jesus Christ to hi people and to the whole world through the witness of the apostles and in the holy scriptures and that revelation is public - accessible to all and visible to all - but for a person to assert a personal revelation from God as the basis for their assurance of personal salvation is an exceptional and extraordinary thing that is not accessible to all and cannot be verified. The claim is a self-confident assertion that is not open to examination and hence is not a reason or an explanation of how one knows one is a Christian. It's just self asserting confidently self's salvation.

 

[Pedrito]

MoreCoffee in Post #26:

It is absolutely true that there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Yet the question is "who is in Christ Jesus"? Many say that they are. Some are absolutely confident that they are. Only God knows with certainty who is.

The Bible (the 66-book versions and 73-book versions agree) – 1 John 5:16-17:
16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

So, true Christians not only have the responsibility to know who other true Christians are, but also have the responsibility of discerning when to pray and when not to pray for those who are seen to be straying.

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Post #27, Lämmchen:

We can't know who else has it...but there's this thing...it's called faith.

1. Let me point to 1 John 5:16-17 again. It is our duty to know who else has it.

2. It has been stated elsewhere that people are saved by baptism. So it would seem that people who are baptised are saved, but we don’t know if they are saved or not. Do I detect a degree of dichotomy in that?

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Post #31, Lämmchen:

I'm confident I am saved because Jesus died for me. That's faith speaking about what is true. I can only know it's true because God reveals this to me by His Word.

MoreCoffee, Post #32:

God reveals to YOU that YOU are saved in "his word"? Really?

The Bible (the 66-book versions and 73-book versions agree):
Matthew 10:22: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13: But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13: And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

 

[Arsenios]

If you have the Savior (the one true one...the one who died for you...the one who forgives you all your sins) you're a Christian.

How will I know that I HAVE the Savior?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

It concerns me that you don't know.

It concerns me that you would say that I don't know...

I asked the question because the answer will turn out to be a personal and subjective evaluation done by the believer...

I am not saying that this evaluation is false - Just that it is personal and subjective...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

It concerns me that you would say that I don't know...

I asked the question because the answer will turn out to be a personal and subjective evaluation done by the believer...

I am not saying that this evaluation is false - Just that it is personal and subjective...

Arsenios

The answer is God's choice, not ours. God's choice is not subjective.

 

[Arsenios]

I wouldn't have trusted in the Savior if it weren't for God revealing Him to me. So, whether you think the verse applies to me or not, I have a Savior. Paul had confidence in the Savior and not himself or his works. It's not wrong to be the same way.

Paul was sent by Christ to Ananias to be healed of the serpentine scales of his blindness by the laying on of hands... And THEN Ananias filled him with the Holy Spirit, remember? Ananias baptized Saul, remember? Christ Called Saul on the Road to Damascus leaving him blind and led by the hands of men... Paul fasted for three days before God sent Ananias to him to heal, baptize, and fill Saul with the Holy Spirit...

So that Saul's Salvation began with his zeal for the faith of his fathers...
Wherein he saw to the death and imprisonment of Christ in His Servants...
Which ended on the road to Damascus in his being disabled by blindness...
Whereby Saul fasted three days in prayer...
And THEN did Christ's Servant Ananias come to him...
Healing, Baptizing, and Sanctifying Saul...

So it was not merely Saul having an encounter with God...
It was God in Ananias that completed that encounter...
It was God baptizing Saul into Christ and His Death BY Ananias...
There were two witnesses, you see...
Saul AND Ananias...

And you DO have a Savior - No question about that...
And your relationship with Him IS personal, as it should be...
When the Church is not in evidence, God alone raises up His Servants...
Until His Body the Ekklesia should come into evidence...

God Bless You, my friend...

Arsenios

 

[MoreCoffee]

It concerns me that you would say that I don't know...

I asked the question because the answer will turn out to be a personal and subjective evaluation done by the believer...

I am not saying that this evaluation is false - Just that it is personal and subjective...

Arsenios

Brother Arsenios is right to say that the matter is personal and subjective. It is true that a man may say "I believe Lord, help, Lord, my unbelief" as a man who came to the Lord Jesus Christ once said to him. I believe help Lord my unbelief is an appeal to God for help and a good conscience. It acknowledges the possibility of self deception and appeals to the Lord for help to be set free from it. Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is available to the faithful but it is not guaranteed and those who self confidently proclaim their absolute assurance and its infallible truth are more likely to risk self deception than the humble of spirit who acknowledge that they may be mistaken and appeal to God for help to see the truth and come to Christ in humble faith doing the works that belong to living faith.

 

[Arsenios]

So, true Christians not only have the responsibility to know who other true Christians are, but also have the responsibility of discerning when to pray and when not to pray for those who are seen to be straying.

I am such a faithless Christian that I cannot discern the difference
between whom I am to to pray for and whom I am not to pray for...
So I just pray for every mother's one of anyone I see, sinning or not...
And I warn people ahead of time, I must tell you...
"Ya better watch out, 'cause ANY mother's son or daughter
gets anywhere near my field of vision
is more than apt to get prayed for..."

Why I even pray for them that hate me!

Lord have Mercy!
Lord have Mercy!
Lord have Mercy!

O Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have Mercy on those who hate us!

It's a secret weapon!
The long gun of prayer!
One shot one kill at a thousand yards...

They never know what hits 'em!

They just find themselves at peace...
Wondering why...
And wanting to stay there...

And now willing to do so...
Or not...
Because they now have perehaps known a little peace...

Jes' Sayin'!


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

How will I know that I HAVE the Savior?

Arsenios

The Savior knows if He has you. He promises that he will never leave you nor forsake you.
We live by faith, not by sight. We are held by grace, not by works.
Rest in God. Either His promises are true or they are not.

 

[Arsenios]

The answer is God's choice, not ours. God's choice is not subjective.

Nor is that in question...

But YOUR choice is...

Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Paul was sent by Christ to Ananias to be healed of the serpentine scales of his blindness by the laying on of hands... And THEN Ananias filled him with the Holy Spirit, remember? Ananias baptized Saul, remember? Christ Called Saul on the Road to Damascus leaving him blind and led by the hands of men... Paul fasted for three days before God sent Ananias to him to heal, baptize, and fill Saul with the Holy Spirit...

So that Saul's Salvation began with his zeal for the faith of his fathers...
Wherein he saw to the death and imprisonment of Christ in His Servants...
Which ended on the road to Damascus in his being disabled by blindness...
Whereby Saul fasted three days in prayer...
And THEN did Christ's Servant Ananias come to him...
Healing, Baptizing, and Sanctifying Saul...

So it was not merely Saul having an encounter with God...
It was God in Ananias that completed that encounter...
It was God baptizing Saul into Christ and His Death BY Ananias...
There were two witnesses, you see...
Saul AND Ananias...

And you DO have a Savior - No question about that...
And your relationship with Him IS personal, as it should be...
When the Church is not in evidence, God alone raises up His Servants...
Until His Body the Ekklesia should come into evidence...

God Bless You, my friend...

Arsenios

Ananias did nothing, but obey what God told him. God did all the work in Saul's life.
You are emphasizing the vessel, not the one who used the vessel.

 

[MennoSota]

Nor is that in question...

But YOUR choice is...

Arsenios

My choice is irrelevant. God is not some product to be picked off a shelf. I don't get to pick Him. God, the Creator, gets to choose. That is all that matters.

 

[Lamb]

Brother Arsenios is right to say that the matter is personal and subjective. It is true that a man may say "I believe Lord, help, Lord, my unbelief" as a man who came to the Lord Jesus Christ once said to him. I believe help Lord my unbelief is an appeal to God for help and a good conscience. It acknowledges the possibility of self deception and appeals to the Lord for help to be set free from it. Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is available to the faithful but it is not guaranteed and those who self confidently proclaim their absolute assurance and its infallible truth are more likely to risk self deception than the humble of spirit who acknowledge that they may be mistaken and appeal to God for help to see the truth and come to Christ in humble faith doing the works that belong to living faith.

What do you mean God's mercy and grace is not guaranteed? Didn't Jesus die for you? That was already done before you were born. Believe that your sins were forgiven at the cross!

 

[Lamb]

It concerns me that you would say that I don't know...

I asked the question because the answer will turn out to be a personal and subjective evaluation done by the believer...

I am not saying that this evaluation is false - Just that it is personal and subjective...

Arsenios

There is an objective truth and a subjective truth. The subjective isn't true unless the objective is...so the objective truth is that Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

What do you mean God's mercy and grace is not guaranteed? Didn't Jesus die for you? That was already done before you were born. Believe that your sins were forgiven at the cross!

I wrote "Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is available to the faithful but it is not guaranteed and those who self confidently proclaim their absolute assurance and its infallible truth are more likely to risk self deception than the humble of spirit who acknowledge that they may be mistaken and appeal to God for help to see the truth and come to Christ in humble faith doing the works that belong to living faith." evidently you misread what was written or do not understand what was written.

 

[Lamb]

I wrote "Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is available to the faithful but it is not guaranteed and those who self confidently proclaim their absolute assurance and its infallible truth are more likely to risk self deception than the humble of spirit who acknowledge that they may be mistaken and appeal to God for help to see the truth and come to Christ in humble faith doing the works that belong to living faith." evidently you misread what was written or do not understand what was written.

Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is guaranteed because ...God is merciful and gracious. Oh and loving. For God so loved the world and all that.

We don't look to ourselves to be assured that GOD has done something. We look to God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Personal assurance of God's mercy and grace is guaranteed because ...God is merciful and gracious. Oh and loving. For God so loved the world and all that.

We don't look to ourselves to be assured that GOD has done something. We look to God.

As I said you did not read or did not understand what you read. The latter is more likely given your most recent reply. No one has an infallible personal word from God saying, for example, "Lämmchen, you are absolutely saved without any doubt and without any possibility of being wrong, I the Lord say this, I the Lord promise it to you Lämmchen." You might feel secure in your feelings about your own salvation but short of a divine revelation no one else can be and unless you really are claiming to have received a word from God such as the one I just invented then you too cannot know with absolute infallible certainty that you are a proper recipient of God's mercy and grace.

 

[Lamb]

As I said you did not read or did not understand what you read. The latter is more likely given your most recent reply. No one has an infallible personal word from God saying, for example, "Lämmchen, you are absolutely saved without any doubt and without any possibility of being wrong, I the Lord say this, I the Lord promise it to you Lämmchen." You might feel secure in your feelings about your own salvation but short of a divine revelation no one else can be and unless you really are claiming to have received a word from God such as the one I just invented then you too cannot know with absolute infallible certainty that you are a proper recipient of God's mercy and grace.

I absolutely understand what you're attempting to say. Hear this, Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active. I have received the revelation of the Savior by God's Word. He has not failed me and I am confident that I will have eternal life with Him.

 

[Lamb]

Ephesians 1:13-14
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Doing good works doesn't give you a Savior. It doesn't give you peace. It doesn't give you joy like the truth that Jesus died for you and your sins are forgiven.

 

[Lamb]

How about this. Instead of asking are you confident in your salvation, instead ask "Are you confident in your Savior to save you?"