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Gift of Tongues

MoreCoffee

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I manage to pray without claiming that I "speak in tongues". So while it is true that every Christian ought to pray it is not true that in order to pray every Christian ought to "speak in tongues".
 

tango

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That's part of the problem we're having with this thread. The question has been asked several times "What is 'it?'" There are a number of different versions of what tongues are--and most of them have appeared in one or more of the posts in this thread.

When an objection is raised on the basis of Scripture or anything else, the most common response seems to be "That's what those other Pentecostals do." Well, "it" has to be something specific. It cannot be that tongues ceased, but they did not. It cannot be that tongues-speaking is a private prayer language and at the same time something that needs a translator. It cannot be that we're talking about real languages that are otherwise spoken somewhere on Earth...or that it's purely a 'spiritual' language. It cannot be that it's intended as something that will lead to the conversion of non-believers...or that it's just something done in certain churches on Sunday for the benefit of those assembled there. Each time that it's shown that Scripture doesn't support one or another of these theories, the "real" tongues-speaking is supposed to be something else.

I'm not looking to endlessly dodge the issue - sometimes the truth of the matter is that some people regard a behavior as acceptable or normal when I'd say it isn't (and chances are it works the other way too).

I don't see a problem with tongues as a private prayer language - although Rom 8:26 doesn't clearly and explicitly say we may speak other languages I don't see a problem with it supporting the idea that sometimes we pray for something that we can't put into words, in some other way. Whether that other way be a succession of pictures in our heads, concepts, another language isn't something I'd get too worried about.

On the other hand tongues when spoken out loud in a group setting would seem to fall under the covering of 1Co 14:28, which also supports the idea of tongues as a private language. If someone speaks there should be an interpreter and if no interpreter is forthcoming the person should speak to himself and to God. No sense that he should no longer pray in tongues, merely that he should no longer pray in tongues such that the church can hear him.

I don't see a reason why a gift of tongues may operate in a manner that the speaker doesn't even know it's going on. Is there any reason why God shouldn't allow two people who hear a speaker, to hear in their own native language? We tend to focus on what sound comes out of the speaker's mouth but why should it be heard the same way by everybody? On that basis tongues could lead to the conversion of non-believers, if they hear the gospel in their native language even the speaker was using their own language.

To be clear, I think the churches where just about every prayer you'll ever hear just sounds like a load of gibberish have missed the mark (I've been to a couple of those). I would be concerned if people think that their own native language is somehow inadequate for the majority of their prayers because I would suspect, for most of us at least, we can put our prayers into words at least most of the time. I remember a couple I knew some years ago who, from what I gather, would routinely "pray in tongues" when doing things like merging from a slip road into heavy traffic. I was never sure why they felt the need to pray in tongues given that "Lord, please provide a space" would seem to express the request perfectly adequately.


I suspect part of the problem, as with so much other discussion on spiritual gifts, is that there tends to be a divide between the stances "God always..." and "God never...". If a Scriptural conclusion is that tongues have ceased then it logically follows that every single instance of someone speaking in tongues (assuming they have no natural knowledge of the language in question) is at best gibberish and at worst demonic. If a Scriptural conclusion is that tongues have not ceased it does not logically follow that every single instance of someone speaking in tongues is manifesting the Holy Spirit - they may still just be making up a bunch of gibberish to look more spiritual, they may be speaking a demonic tongue etc.
 

MoreCoffee

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Look tango, sitting on the fence forever is going yo be very uncomfortable for you. Best pick a side for the time when you need to dismount the fence :p
 

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psalms 91

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Zre you ready now fro a thread just for those who believe?
 

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Ehmm.. that was my answer to it. Everyone is called to pray. We all don't know what to pray, so the Spirit helps us all, not a few.

http://www.rhema.org/index.php?opti...y-believer-should-speak-in-tongues&Itemid=145

The Spirit is a part of us now that we are believers so yes He will intercede for us as it says in Romans. But that verse does not say that we must need to speak in tongues in order to have this accomplished. In fact, scripture says that not all will speak in tongues 1 Corinthians 12:30. When a denomination insists that a person is not Christian if he doesn't speak in tongues, it is in error.
 

psalms 91

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I dont know of any denomination that says that and I have been to a few of them
 

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I dont know of any denomination that says that and I have been to a few of them

Doesn't the Oneness Pentecostal church insist that speaking in tongues is necessary for proof of salvation?
 

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Doesn't the Oneness Pentecostal church insist that speaking in tongues is necessary for proof of salvation?

There are a number of groups and some small denominations that teach that "speaking in tongues" is the only reliable sign of conversion to Christ so those groups teach that "speaking in tongues" is necessary.
 

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I cannot vouch for this information, but here's an extract from a website (spiritualabuse.org) that addresses the matter--

United Pentecostals and other apostolics believe that when a person is baptized in the name of Jesus that the Holy Spirit will come because it is a promise to you, your children, and other people that the Lord shall call (Acts 2:38, 39). Until a believer has spoken in tongues, they teach that the person is not yet saved. In fact, most apostolics would consider trinitarian believers who spoke in tongues to also be unsaved because they had not been properly water baptized and/or did not believe in the oneness of God. There are a few who will question the validity of a person's tongues experience if it is received outside an apostolic church setting.

In contrast, most mainstream Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues is not a matter of salvation. The Assemblies of God, International Pentecostal Holiness Church, and Fire Baptized Holiness Church are some major denominations that reject the teaching that they pertain to salvation. These denominations teach that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is a different experience from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is received upon repentance. They do, however, teach that believers should want and seek this extra baptism of the Spirit, which is evidenced by speaking in tongues.
 

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Doesn't the Oneness Pentecostal church insist that speaking in tongues is necessary for proof of salvation?
I know my church doesnt require it, many ushers that are there every service dont speak it, some preachers dont either. In fact we had a guest preacher that spoke about the gifts as a body and its not necessary for all to obtain them but to edify the church and tongues may be given by God to help praise, not intended for everyone.

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psalms 91

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Didnt know that and dont agree with that at all
 

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Didnt know that and dont agree with that at all

It is interesting to see the wide variety of beliefs about "speaking in tongues" within Pentecostal and Charismatic groups. What is your view? Is "speaking in tongues" meant for all?
 

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Those who believe, not just some:

And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
Unless I'm mistaken, that answer to my earlier post is that all those who believe will drive out demons and speak in tongues AND pick up snakes without being endangered AND drink poison without it hurting them AND will cure sick people with a touch. Do you know any (such) "believers" yourself?
 

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Unless I'm mistaken, that answer to my earlier post is that all those who believe will drive out demons and speak in tongues AND pick up snakes without being endangered AND drink poison without it hurting them AND will cure sick people with a touch. Do you know any (such) "believers" yourself?
They as a group, not necessarily an individual

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Unless I'm mistaken, that answer to my earlier post is that all those who believe will drive out demons and speak in tongues AND pick up snakes without being endangered AND drink poison without it hurting them AND will cure sick people with a touch. Do you know any (such) "believers" yourself?

Yes a lot but in Holland we only pick up garden snakes.
1200px-Tuinslang.jpg

If they throw poisonous stuff in your food you bless it and don't get sick.
 

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Well, here where there are some churches that believe enough in that verse, taken literally, that they do pick up poisonous snakes during worship...die or are seriously injured as a result.
 

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It is interesting to see the wide variety of beliefs about "speaking in tongues" within Pentecostal and Charismatic groups. What is your view? Is "speaking in tongues" meant for all?
I believe it is available to all as God is no respector of persons but not all will believe or get it. We can see just in this thread that there are those who do not beleive that the gift is still available
 

psalms 91

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Well, here where there are some churches that believe enough in that verse, taken literally, that they do pick up poisonous snakes during worship...die or are seriously injured as a result.
Do not tempt the Lord your God, doing on purpose is one thing, doing it accidentally another
 

Albion

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Curing people with a touch should not be done 'on purpose.'

I'll have to contemplate that idea for awhile.
 
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