Gift of Tongues

[MoreCoffee]

Paul describes two types of tongues, foreign tongues and unknown tongues, of angels and of men.
Also
Isaiah 28:11. Nay, but by [men of] strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people;

Albion I thank you for that comment, I agree that this is a healthy conversation but i do find myself repeated things over and over, example, this is not just as feeling that one gets in awe of a church, because this feeling never ceases and enrichs me everyday, thats different. Another is what I just said about two types of tongues in regards to coffees post, i must have said that a dozen times already lol

But as for non scriptural evidence or science based attitudes I will refrain from answering.

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You are right that saint Paul mentions "foreign tongues" which are human languages and he says "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels". Every example of angels speaking in the holy scriptures is an example of angels speaking a normal human language. There are no examples in the holy scriptures that tell of angels speaking any language that is not a normal language that human beings use. Even the book of Job tells of the Sons of God (in heaven) gathering and a conversation between Satan and Jehovah where all the words used are written in Hebrew (translated into English for our benefit in our English bibles).

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nought? Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face." And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand." So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:6-12​

You are also right that the passage in Isaiah says that "by [men of] strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people" the men in question were the Assyrian Armies who invaded soon after Isaiah spoke. The reason for the passage mentioning their foreign language "strange lips and another tongue" is God's rebuke for the drunken speech of the men of E'phraim.

Woe to the haughty crown of Ephraim's drunkards, to the fading flower of its proud splendour sited at the head of the lush valley, to those prostrated by wine! See, a strong and mighty man in the Lord's service, like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest, like immense flood-waters overflowing, with his hand he throws them to the ground. They will be trampled underfoot, the haughty crown of Ephraim's drunkards, and the faded flower of its proud splendour sited at the head of the lush valley. Like a fig ripe before summer comes: whoever spots it forthwith picks and swallows it. That day Jehovah of hosts will be a crown of splendour and a proud diadem for the remnant of his people, a spirit of fair judgement for him who sits in judgement, and the strength of those who repel the assault on the gate. These too have been confused by wine, have gone astray owing to liquor. Priest and prophet have become confused by liquor, are sodden with wine, have strayed owing to liquor, have become confused in their visions, have strayed in their decisions. Yes, every table is covered in filthy vomit, not one is clean! 'Whom does he think he is lecturing? Whom does he think his message is for? Babies just weaned? Babies just taken from the breast? With his "Sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham!"' [Hebrew meaning For it is precept upon precept … rule upon rule … here a little, there a little] Now, with stammering lips and in a foreign language, he will talk to this nation. He used to say to them, 'Here you can rest! Here you can let the weary rest! Here all is quiet.' But they refused to listen. Now Jehovah is going to say this to them, 'Sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham.' So that when they walk they will fall over backwards and so be broken, trapped and taken captive. Isaiah 28:1-13​

The Assyrians were God's instruments of punishment for sinful Israel. Saint Paul remembered this passage and applied it to the foreign languages spoken in the Corinthian church's meetings and observed that

In the law it is written, 'By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people; yet even then they will not listen to me,' says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22​

The sign given to sinful Israel was a sign given to their unbelieving people who mocked the prophet Isaiah by jeering at him "precept upon precept, rule upon rule, here a little and there a little" throwing his own words back at him as if they were adults mocking a teacher who was trying to instruct them as if they were children. Their mockery cost them a lot. They soon faced God's judgement at the hands of foreign speaking Assyria. And saint Paul tells the Corinthian Christians to beware about their misuse of tongues in case they also become unbelieving and face judgement.

 

[Albion]

I'm not sure that's entirely fair. If God is wanting to give gifts to people but those people, for whatever reason, are declining to accept them then it's not accurate to say that the gifts have ceased.

I have been very careful to admit that God can give whatever gifts he wants and to whom he wants and when he wants. I have also been careful not to say that there are no instances of anyone anywhere speaking in some strange sounds during the thousand and more years from the Ancient Church until the resumption of interest in some quarters in tongues-speaking a couple of centuries ago.

I have also stated that tongues-speaking ceased AS A NORMAL feature of Church life. This matters because we know that they existed when they did in order to accomplish something in particular for the infant church. But one of the leading claims made by the advocates of glossolalia is that they did not cease. Christians who look at history and see that while there might have been a saint here or there who was reputed to have spoken in unknown tongues understand that such does not constitute an ongoing feature of Church life as it was in antiquity and not for the same purpose as indicated in Scripture. If some practice was interrupted, that means that it ceased, even if the resumption I referred to above was genuine (which no one has shown to be the case).

I suspect also that in this day and age everything is beamed around the world in an instant. If someone were speaking in tongues during a church service in, say, a sleepy farming community in the year 1284, would there necessarily be any record of it?

My friend, I am a historian by profession and I can assure you that the most obscure and seemingly incidental developments are recorded somewhere. What's more, we are not speaking of something happening or not happening in the year 1284; we are dealing with a well-known phenomenon of the Ancient Church that died out for well over a thousand years (assuming, of course, that the latter-day Pentecostals do represent a real resumption).

So, no, the likelihood of there being a continuous experience of tongues-speaking during that whole time which was unnoticed is remote, and I do not think that it's at all reasonable to contend--as proponent of tongues have done--that communities existed in some cave for the whole of this time, speaking in tongues, or that the bad old political or church leaders successfully suppressed the information, or any of the other far-fetched theories that have been floated.

 

[Andrew]

You are right that saint Paul mentions "foreign tongues" which are human languages and he says "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels". Every example of angels speaking in the holy scriptures is an example of angels speaking a normal human language. There are no examples in the holy scriptures that tell of angels speaking any language that is not a normal language that human beings use. Even the book of Job tells of the Sons of God (in heaven) gathering and a conversation between Satan and Jehovah where all the words used are written in Hebrew (translated into English for our benefit in our English bibles).

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. The LORD said to Satan, "Whence have you come?" Satan answered the LORD, "From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it." And the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?" Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nought? Hast thou not put a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. But put forth thy hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse thee to thy face." And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand." So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:6-12​

You are also right that the passage in Isaiah says that "by [men of] strange lips and with another tongue will he speak to this people" the men in question were the Assyrian Armies who invaded soon after Isaiah spoke. The reason for the passage mentioning their foreign language "strange lips and another tongue" is God's rebuke for the drunken speech of the men of E'phraim.

Woe to the haughty crown of Ephraim's drunkards, to the fading flower of its proud splendour sited at the head of the lush valley, to those prostrated by wine! See, a strong and mighty man in the Lord's service, like a storm of hail, a destroying tempest, like immense flood-waters overflowing, with his hand he throws them to the ground. They will be trampled underfoot, the haughty crown of Ephraim's drunkards, and the faded flower of its proud splendour sited at the head of the lush valley. Like a fig ripe before summer comes: whoever spots it forthwith picks and swallows it. That day Jehovah of hosts will be a crown of splendour and a proud diadem for the remnant of his people, a spirit of fair judgement for him who sits in judgement, and the strength of those who repel the assault on the gate. These too have been confused by wine, have gone astray owing to liquor. Priest and prophet have become confused by liquor, are sodden with wine, have strayed owing to liquor, have become confused in their visions, have strayed in their decisions. Yes, every table is covered in filthy vomit, not one is clean! 'Whom does he think he is lecturing? Whom does he think his message is for? Babies just weaned? Babies just taken from the breast? With his "Sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham!"' [Hebrew meaning For it is precept upon precept … rule upon rule … here a little, there a little] Now, with stammering lips and in a foreign language, he will talk to this nation. He used to say to them, 'Here you can rest! Here you can let the weary rest! Here all is quiet.' But they refused to listen. Now Jehovah is going to say this to them, 'Sav lasav, sav lasav, kav lakav, kav lakav, zeer sham, zeer sham.' So that when they walk they will fall over backwards and so be broken, trapped and taken captive. Isaiah 28:1-13​

The Assyrians were God's instruments of punishment for sinful Israel. Saint Paul remembered this passage and applied it to the foreign languages spoken in the Corinthian church's meetings and observed that

In the law it is written, 'By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people; yet even then they will not listen to me,' says the Lord. Tongues, then, are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. 1 Corinthians 14:21-22​

The sign given to sinful Israel was a sign given to their unbelieving people who mocked the prophet Isaiah by jeering at him "precept upon precept, rule upon rule, here a little and there a little" throwing his own words back at him as if they were adults mocking a teacher who was trying to instruct them as if they were children. Their mockery cost them a lot. They soon faced God's judgement at the hands of foreign speaking Assyria. And saint Paul tells the Corinthian Christians to beware about their misuse of tongues in case they also become unbelieving and face judgement.

Interesting.
However, Paul identifies praising God in the spirit is speaking in unknown​ tongues correct? For an inquire would not understand him if he is near, therefore one should pray in mind when in the spirit that an interpreter interpret? One should excell according to Paul and seek interpretation and prophesy, otherwise we should just pay no mind to everything Paul teaches to the church as its just outdated teaching that doesnt apply to christians today. Keep Pauls tradition as he said. Perhaps whatever tongues im speaking may be interpreted and could even be a foreign language.
I dont know, but a preacher puts his hands on me again and i start blabbing out tongues i would want to keep in mind is possible that it may be interpreted. As suggested earlier in the thread is may be a devil, but i know its not for it turned me away from sin and cleaned me up in other words. I should want to (and o certainly do) know what the spirit is saying. Like I said I still pray in English as i dont fully understand fluent tongues and im considering what Paul is teaching about it.
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[tango]

I have been very careful to admit that God can give whatever gifts he wants and to whom he wants and when he wants. I have also been careful not to say that there are no instances of anyone anywhere speaking in some strange sounds during the thousand and more years from the Ancient Church until the resumption of interest in some quarters in tongues-speaking a couple of centuries ago.

OK, but in the post I replied to you were talking about if they had died out then the recent resurgence could be considered artificial, and then commented after exploring another option that you thought this was probably the case.

I have also stated that tongues-speaking ceased AS A NORMAL feature of Church life. This matters because we know that they existed when they did in order to accomplish something in particular for the infant church. But one of the leading claims made by the advocates of glossolalia is that they did not cease. Christians who look at history and see that while there might have been a saint here or there who was reputed to have spoken in unknown tongues understand that such does not constitute an ongoing feature of Church life as it was in antiquity and not for the same purpose as indicated in Scripture. If some practice was interrupted, that means that it ceased, even if the resumption I referred to above was genuine (which no one has shown to be the case).

I'm wondering if we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm not saying (and don't think I've ever said) that we should expect to see countless people speaking in tongues every Sunday in church. I'd say that's the stance of the more extreme Pentecostals, the ones I think take things too far to the point they become silly. In the church I attended before leaving the area I don't think I heard anyone speak aloud in tongues during a church service. I heard a few people praying softly in tongues when I was sitting near them - it was clear that their prayer was not for public hearing. I'm not sure I'd expect tongues to be a "normal" part of church activity in the way our modern church services involve songs and a sermon as a matter of routine, but then perhaps it shouldn't be so extraordinary that people are unsure what to do about it.

If a practise was interrupted we need to understand why it interrupted to understand whether it stopped because it was finished, or because it just faded out. When my home renovation is complete I won't be spending lots of time ripping down walls and planning cable routes and the like, because it is a discrete task and when it is done there's no need to continue to do any of those things. On the other hand the fact I stopped going to the gym doesn't mean that resumption of gym attendance requires any particular justification - I just kinda got out of the habit and it probably wouldn't hurt me to get back in the habit of taking more regular exercise. In these examples one stopped because a specific activity came to a natural end, the other stopped for no particular reason other than I got out of the habit.

My friend, I am a historian by profession and I can assure you that the most obscure and seemingly incidental developments are recorded somewhere. What's more, we are not speaking of something happening or not happening in the year 1284; we are dealing with a well-known phenomenon of the Ancient Church that died out for well over a thousand years (assuming, of course, that the latter-day Pentecostals do represent a real resumption).

I'm sure a lot of seemingly random things are recorded although at the same time I'm sure you know how things can be lost in the sands of time. A friend of mine is a passoniate genealogist (as least as far as his own family is concerned) and has often commented how records exist going back further than he originally expected but that the vagaries increase as he goes further back in time. Even down to simple things, like the fact he discovered his grandmother's legal name (as recorded on her birth records) was slightly different to the name on her driving license when she died, which in turn was slightly different to the name she used for her day-to-day business. The differences were small, essentially down to different spellings, but in another couple of hundred years it's easy to see how there might be confusion as to whether records were referring to the same person at all.

Also the fact that all sorts of small details are recorded doesn't mean that every small detail is recorded. I attended a hypercharismatic church for a short time and they had no means of recording the services. So, for example, if you wanted to know whether anybody spoke in tongues five Sundays ago you'd have to ask around to see if anybody remembered. Chances are people wouldn't remember, but "probably" would be a safe bet given the church is hypercharismatic to the point of being silly. Since the church is small and fading, chances are in a decade few will remember the church unless they were prompted and in 50 years the chances are nobody will remember it.

So, no, the likelihood of there being a continuous experience of tongues-speaking during that whole time which was unnoticed is remote, and I do not think that it's at all reasonable to contend--as proponent of tongues have done--that communities existed in some cave for the whole of this time, speaking in tongues, or that the bad old political or church leaders successfully suppressed the information, or any of the other far-fetched theories that have been floated.

This is certainly possible, but even if we can comprehensively disprove any of the theories as to what might have been happening the fact something stopped for a time doesn't in and of itself imply that it should stay stopped. Since I stopped going to the gym I don't need a specific justification to resume attendance other than "I gained weight, I want to lose the weight".

In centuries gone by did people ever question what their minister said to them? I know people today who listen to the sermon at their church and accept every word of it without question, and people who read Scripture that they understand and if they find a bit too difficult to understand they just ignore it and move on. One church not all that far from me looks like it's going to close down because they don't have a minister, their tradition dictates that only an ordained minister can perform certain rites (largely but not exclusively communion-related), and therefore they can't function. I don't see anything in Scripture that dictates one must be an ordained minister to perform any of those things, but their tradition is such that they would rather close the church than break with tradition. On that basis if a church's firmly held tradition is "we don't do that here" then even without the kind of persecution associated with crusades and inquisitions and such, it's unlikely that such things would happen.

Even so, and even if it could be comprensively proven that speaking in tongues and the other spiritual gifts stopped for a thousand years, it wouldn't answer the question of whether they stopped because the gifts ceased (i.e. they are not for today) or whether they stopped because people just stopped using them. Or, in the case of tongues, perhaps they stopped for a time because they weren't needed for a time - when we look at Pentecost and people gathered hearing the disciples speaking in their own tongues we see a clear purpose for tongues. Comparing that to a time when people would be born, raised, live their entire lives and die without going more than a dozen miles or so from their village, there would be little need for tongues. Now people can be the other side of the world within a few hours and communities are far more multicultural, so it's easy to see why the gift of tongues could become useful again.

One thing I find quite interesting is that at Pentecost when those hearing the disciples heard their own languages, it's not entirely clear exactly how many disciples or exactly how many foreign languages were heard. I wonder if the disciples were speaking in a foreign language (so they wouldn't know what they were saying) or whether they were speaking their own language but the visitors were hearing their own tongues. In that regard, I don't see any specific reason why I shouldn't be speaking my native English while completely unaware that someone listening to me doesn't understand a word of English but can understand me perfectly because what they are hearing is their native Russian or whatever.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Interesting.
However, Paul identifies praising God in the spirit is speaking in unknown​ tongues correct? For an inquire would not understand him if he is near, therefore one should pray in mind when in the spirit that an interpreter interpret? One should excell according to Paul and seek interpretation and prophesy, otherwise we should just pay no mind to everything Paul teaches to the church as its just outdated teaching that doesnt apply to christians today. Keep Pauls tradition as he said. Perhaps whatever tongues im speaking may be interpreted and could even be a foreign language.

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Paul says it is "speaking in tongues" but he doesn't say anything about it being unknown except in the case that the one who hears it does not understand it then it is a language unknown to him/her.

For the person who speaks in a [foreign] language is not actually speaking to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands him, because he is talking about secrets by the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 14:2​

People today ought to take what saint Paul says to heart as lessons in the proper use of the gifts that God gives. No Christian should ignore what he writes. Saint Paul encourages Christians to speak in foreign languages but he observes that speaking a prophecy in the language that the congregation understands is better.

The person who speaks in a [foreign] language builds himself up, but the person who prophesies builds up the church. Now I wish that all of you could speak in [foreign] languages, but especially that you could prophesy. The person who prophesies is more important than the person who speaks in a [foreign] language, unless he interprets it so that the church may be built up. 1 Corinthians 14:4-5​

And later saint Paul encourages Christians to seek gifts from God but they are to seek with the motive of building up others and not themselves. Gifts are not for personal aggrandisement.

Therefore, my brothers, desire the ability to prophesy, and do not prevent others from speaking in [foreign] languages. 1 Corinthians 14:39​

This passage is useful for Christians today just as it was to the Christians in Corinth but the Christians in Corinth were divided and misused their gifts while it is to be hoped that Christians today will avoid divisions (this I suspect is not really the case, if it were we would not have so many denominations) and avoid misusing their gifts (I think this is optimistic because television preachers misuse their gifts and thus they give their followers such bad examples).

 

[Andrew]

So now they we have gotten this far along in the topic lol...

From one brother to another...

What am I to do the next time a preacher puts his hand on me and I start blabbing out unknown tongues again?
Should I pray for an interpreter or is that out of the question?
Should I force myself to stop and move away from the preacher?
In all seriousness a miracle happened to me and maybe I shouldn't have told anyone about it in the first place.
I may or may not start a thread for believers only. This all makes for good reference though

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[Imalive]

So now they we have gotten this far along in the topic lol...

From one brother to another...

What am I to do the next time a preacher puts his hand on me and I start blabbing out unknown tongues again?
Should I pray for an interpreter or is that out of the question?
Should I force myself to stop and move away from the preacher?
In all seriousness a miracle happened to me and maybe I shouldn't have told anyone about it in the first place.
I may or may not start a thread for believers only. This all makes for good reference though

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I'm glad you told it. It's awesome.

 

[Albion]

I'm wondering if we're talking at cross purposes here. I'm not saying (and don't think I've ever said) that we should expect to see countless people speaking in tongues every Sunday in church. I'd say that's the stance of the more extreme Pentecostals, the ones I think take things too far to the point they become silly. In the church I attended before leaving the area I don't think I heard anyone speak aloud in tongues during a church service. I heard a few people praying softly in tongues when I was sitting near them - it was clear that their prayer was not for public hearing. I'm not sure I'd expect tongues to be a "normal" part of church activity in the way our modern church services involve songs and a sermon as a matter of routine, but then perhaps it shouldn't be so extraordinary that people are unsure what to do about it.

That's part of the problem we're having with this thread. The question has been asked several times "What is 'it?'" There are a number of different versions of what tongues are--and most of them have appeared in one or more of the posts in this thread.

When an objection is raised on the basis of Scripture or anything else, the most common response seems to be "That's what those other Pentecostals do." Well, "it" has to be something specific. It cannot be that tongues ceased, but they did not. It cannot be that tongues-speaking is a private prayer language and at the same time something that needs a translator. It cannot be that we're talking about real languages that are otherwise spoken somewhere on Earth...or that it's purely a 'spiritual' language. It cannot be that it's intended as something that will lead to the conversion of non-believers...or that it's just something done in certain churches on Sunday for the benefit of those assembled there. Each time that it's shown that Scripture doesn't support one or another of these theories, the "real" tongues-speaking is supposed to be something else.

 

[Andrew]

I know what it is

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[MoreCoffee]

I know what it is

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I can't recall, did you tell Josiah and others who asked what "it" (meaning "speaking in tongues") is?

I'm happy with the implied definition from The Acts of the Apostles - that definition is a foreign language spoken by somebody who never learned it but is suddenly speaking by means of a grace gift given by God.

 

[Andrew]

I can't recall, did you tell Josiah and others who asked what "it" (meaning "speaking in tongues") is?

I'm happy with the implied definition from The Acts of the Apostles - that definition is a foreign language spoken by somebody who never learned it but is suddenly speaking by means of a grace gift given by God.

It was amazing I just came back from prayer meeting, It started happening again (rapid unknown language) but i didnt know what i was saying so i asked God in my mind to help me know what im praying and suddenly i knew exactly what i was saying while speaking this language.
Like automatic but then i got discouraged because i started OVER thinking it lol.
Prayers went out to all Christian Haven friends of course, didnt forget you guys and gals! God bless

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[Andrew]

MoreCoffee I believe thats what I was trying to get across. It is a new pure language I didnt have to learn. Unlike every language of man having profanity in its vocabulary, this IS pure and new and I know what it is and I know what it means, to outsiders it sounds like rubbish and Im fine with that. Its definitely for prayer when im caught up in the spirit and after words it leaves me with revelation/insight to focus on throughout the day that does not distract me from work, keeps me in a super awesome mood all day learning to walk with God.
Amen and thank you all for helping me help us all, or at least I hope this helped edify than confuse anyone, this was and is a tough subject to discuss no doubt.

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[Albion]

It is a new pure language I didnt have to learn. Unlike every language of man having profanity in its vocabulary, this IS pure and new and I know what it is and I know what it means....

So, it would easy enough for you to repeat what you said on one of these occasions?? Or to say--in that language--something you were asked to say...the Lord's Prayer, for example??

Doing that would go far towards convincing the doubters.

 

[Andrew]

So, it would easy enough for you to repeat what you said on one of these occasions?? Or to say--in that language--something you were asked to say...the Lord's Prayer, for example??

Doing that would go far towards convincing the doubters.

Its not like that at all, im not trying to convince anyone. I understand the language as I understand its purpose and use, I tried to fit the sounds what what I heard in my head and it stopped, im sorry I cant translate it and im not going to try otherwise it is just discouraging me by cutting me off which im not trying to prove it anymore, thats silly to prove tongues in a written forum, I see that now. I know what it is and im ok with that.

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[Albion]

Its not like that at all, im not trying to convince anyone. I understand the language as I understand its purpose and use, I tried to fit the sounds what what I heard in my head and it stopped, im sorry I cant translate it and im not going to try otherwise it is just discouraging me by cutting me off which im not trying to prove it anymore, thats silly to prove tongues in a written forum, I see that now. I know what it is and im ok with that.

It cannot be called a 'language,' then. Random sounds--which is what doubters think it amounts to--have the same nature as what you're describing.

 

[MoreCoffee]

So, it would easy enough for you to repeat what you said on one of these occasions?? Or to say--in that language--something you were asked to say...the Lord's Prayer, for example??

Doing that would go far towards convincing the doubters.

Isn't the request made above a little bit unjust and a little bit excessive?

 

[Andrew]

Isn't the request made above a little bit unjust and a little bit excessive?

Right? and i dont have 3 minds, i can speak and i can hear but i cant compare them at the same time. That calls for interpretation and not online, you have to hear the spirit

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[MoreCoffee]

Right? and i dont have 3 minds, i can speak and i can hear but i cant compare them at the same time. That calls for interpretation and not online, you have to hear the spirit

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You are likely right about your abilities yet they do make verification of your claim very difficult or possibly impossible. I have heard many people "speak in tongues" and done so myself yet I have never been convinced that what was uttered was a language that could be translated. My experience does not disprove that genuine "speaking in tongues" has happened but it also does not offer any significant evidence in its favour. The matter is yet to be properly tested and properly verified. The holy scriptures urge the faithful to "test the spirits to see if they are from God". That is good advice.

For this is the message you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We must not be like Cain who was from the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. Do not be astonished, brothers and sisters, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another. Whoever does not love abides in death. All who hate a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them. We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us--and we ought to lay down our lives for one another. How does God's love abide in anyone who has the world's goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help? Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action. And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world. Little children, you are from God, and have conquered them; for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore what they say is from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 3:11-4:6​

The warning is one we ought to take to heart. Many false prophets have walked among us in our times. Many claiming to be apostles and seers and to know secrets and to foresee the end of days. It seems that one is claiming that Saturday will be the end. Others have claimed other dates. The faithful are warned to be careful of such claims.

 

[Albion]

Isn't the request made above a little bit unjust and a little bit excessive?

How so? A number of us here have inquired into this phenomenon so ardently believed in by our fellow posters. And, without denying that the experience our friend DHoffmann experienced was meaningful to him, both you and I have said in one way or another that we doubt that what was uttered is an actual language. That's the word he used--language.

Therefore, when I read him asserting that he understood it as one would understand a language I asked if he could say something IN that language in the way that any of us could use any other language that we speak. I didn't even ask that he actually do so, but simply if he CAN do that.

 

[Andrew]

You are likely right about your abilities yet they do make verification of your claim very difficult or possibly impossible. I have heard many people "speak in tongues" and done so myself yet I have never been convinced that what was uttered was a language that could be translated. My experience does not disprove that genuine "speaking in tongues" has happened but it also does not offer any significant evidence in its favour. The matter is yet to be properly tested and properly verified. The holy scriptures urge the faithful to "test the spirits to see if they are from God". That is good advice.

For this is the message you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. We must not be like Cain who was from the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. Do not be astonished, brothers and sisters, that the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life because we love one another. Whoever does not love abides in death. All who hate a brother or sister are murderers, and you know that murderers do not have eternal life abiding in them. We know love by this, that he laid down his life for us--and we ought to lay down our lives for one another. How does God's love abide in anyone who has the world's goods and sees a brother or sister in need and yet refuses help? Little children, let us love, not in word or speech, but in truth and action. And by this we will know that we are from the truth and will reassure our hearts before him whenever our hearts condemn us; for God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have boldness before God; and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we obey his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. All who obey his commandments abide in him, and he abides in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit that he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world. Little children, you are from God, and have conquered them; for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world; therefore what they say is from the world, and the world listens to them. We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and whoever is not from God does not listen to us. From this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 1 John 3:11-4:6​

The warning is one we ought to take to heart. Many false prophets have walked among us in our times. Many claiming to be apostles and seers and to know secrets and to foresee the end of days. It seems that one is claiming that Saturday will be the end. Others have claimed other dates. The faithful are warned to be careful of such claims.

Very true, I now have reconsidered and am no longer in the office of trying to project an experience as proof in scripture. It makes sense to my understand and I might just refer to it is my personal prayer language from now on as it has put order back in my life and im done with all confusion, if it helps me walk with the Lord then so be it im thankful for "it". Maybe its God helping me to pray because I have had difficulties trying to pray "right" personally.

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