"Catholic Answers" Why Did Luther's Heresy Persist?

[Josiah]

The question before us:


In this premier, highly praised by Catholics RCC apologetic ministry (with MANY publications, radio stations, videos and one of the most popular websites on the 'net), we see something VERY common and typical in the video example of this thread:


1. Once again, there is the very specific, very harsh accusation of "Luther's HERESY" Note, it's not "104 wrong things Luther said" it's singular and it's specifically said to be HERESY (a specific term). This accusation is made repeatedly at Catholic Answers. But (as typical) the specific "heresy" of Luther is never mentioned, never identified (and thus never "answered" - the whole function of apologetics entirely evaded). WHY? Why does this premier APOLOGETICS site, priding itself as giving ANSWERS, not answer this, not defend this flame and division, not even identify "Luther's Heresy?" It's very typical so it can't be accidental.... Could it be it can't answer why its specifically "heresy" and/or can't defend the RCC's position in so powerfully rejecting it? Could it be that if CA identified the horrible, apostate, HERESY Catholics would respond with "But Luther was RIGHT in that, not wrong?" I don't know but the evasion is curious.... Why so powerfully perpetuate the division and flame if it doesn't identify the specific "HERESY" and evades answering why it is such and why the RCC is right? We know at most Christian discussion forums, accusing one of a singular, apostate, damning HERESY - but not identifying that and substantiating the accusation, would be a rule violation as well as obviously NOT apologetics or answering. Let's discuss.


2. Here again, yet again, in VERY typical fashion, Catholic ANSWERS notes that the RCC is correct in this matter it carefully won't identify because A) The RCC now dogmatically numbers exactly SEVEN Sacraments - and thus the RCC must be correct in this (never identified) matter, and B) The RCC itself currently agrees with it itself individually/exclusively/uniquely in those things that it itself currently holds is good for it itself to agree with it itself concerning and thus it MUST be right about this (not identified) issues. These are the two standard, "go-to" apologeical points of this premier RCC ministry (so praised even by the Pope). Do they "answer" anything? Are they true or relevant? Are they "apologetics" at all? Let's discuss these two "go-to" apologetics used in this video (and just about every other by this premier Catholic apologetics/answer ministry).



This thread is about the above.




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[Albion]

What you say about reading the KJV and "12th grade level" may be true in the USA.

I'm pretty sure that pamphlets distributed among Americans is what we all understood the issue here to be primarily concerned with, however.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is, in my experience, quite easy to read & understand given that it has a glossary at the back for any technical terms that a reader may not know.

Actually, I agree with you there. The Catechism itself is superficial and often vague. Consequently it is reasonably easy to read. However, if we take Catholic publications and propaganda in general under consideration, the reality changes. This is relevant because you yourself broadened the point when you said such things as this:

And still it is the official teaching of the Catholic Church in the many documents that state Church teaching (dogma) that one ought to consult when looking for what the Catholic Church teaches.

...and you went on to refer to the decisions of 21 ecumenical [sic] councils. Heck, the church has made official pronouncements on some issues, the meaning of which Roman Catholic scholars are still questioning after more than a century! I am thinking there of Leo's proclamation on Anglican Orders that most Catholic theologians think doesn't make sense.




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[MoreCoffee]

I'm pretty sure that pamphlets distributed among Americans is what we all understood the issue here to be primarily concerned with, however.

Actually, I agree with you there. The Catechism itself is superficial and often vague. Consequently it is reasonably easy to read. However, if we take Catholic publications and propaganda in general under consideration, the reality changes. This is relevant because you yourself broadened the point when you said such things as this:

...and you went on to refer to the decisions of 21 ecumenical [sic] councils. Heck, the church has made official pronouncements on some issues, the meaning of which Roman Catholic scholars are still questioning after more than a century! I am thinking there of Leo's proclamation on Anglican Orders that most Catholic theologians think doesn't make sense.

I do not doubt that some documents may be obscure. I cannot speak of Catholic scholars as a whole but those that I know do not speak despairingly about the documents as a whole or even of particular documents. But in theology much is and always will be a mystery.

 

[FredVB]

Luther's "heresy" that Jesus is the Savior has persisted because it's true and the Holy Spirit has empowered it.

Besides the subject of whether Luther brought in heresy, there is the subject of how any heresy does persist. Do they? I can say they sure do. Many heresies persist. Those which are really heresies are not true, and are not with the Holy Spirit empowering them. Persistence then is no proof of truth.

Some things might be judged as heresy that are true, still. Persistence should not guide us. We have to look carefully at all supporting evidence to have any comfortable degree of certainty, though there is chance some further evidence can come to show we were wrong with some part of that. And we should just be ready for that. We cannot continue learning through life if we are not ready with being open to that. Persistence of some belief is not good basis to be closed to that.

 

[FredVB]

We can change our minds, and even leave heresies behind that way.

 

[pinacled]

Tim Staples and the leading RCC apologetic site "Catholic Answers" gives the definitive answer to why Luther's heresy has persisted...

Several observations about this "answer"....

1. There's no mention of what Luther taught that was heresy.... What the RCC condemned was his teaching that Jesus is the Savior (not self, not now or ever, not in full or in part) - and he made it clear that he we speaking of narrow justiication (what in post Vatican II Catholicism is called "initial grace") and the RCC made it clear it understood how Luther meant it. THAT is what Luther said that the RCC was so horrified over that it split itself in the third largest split in Christian history. But (as is nearly always the case with Catholic Answers), it never says what the "heresy" is. IMO, the reason for this very obvious evasion is that the audience they are (in part) trying to reach would be horrified by the RCC's condemnation of that.


2. A huge point is made that sound theology is defined by having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - not 6 or 8 but 7. A denomination MUST define "Sacrament" as the post-Trent RCC does and MUST number such as exactly SEVEN. This is given as the keystone of theology. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Resurrection. Not salvation. Not mercy. Having exactly SEVEN Sacraments - and defining the word "Sacrament" exactly as the RCC now does. Hum..... Tim goes on to say THIS is why the RCC is closer to the EOC than to Luther (although Lutherans don't dogmatically number them AT ALL, and the only one of the "seven" Luther personally indicated is not a "Sacrament" is marriage). So, the number SEVEN is the key, the singular most important thing in Christianity, the unifying point. Not Christ. Not the Cross. Not the Savior. Hum.... Sometimes when you read or listen to "Catholic Answers" - THE esteemed Catholic apologetics site - you learn far more than you'd expect.


3. Once again, we get the point perpetually made and very central to all Catholic apologetics, "The singular, individual RCC is in unity with just itself" point - and this PROVES it must be right and the singular denomination of God. This point that the RCC is in unity with ITSELF but no other is a constant at Catholic Answers, the "proof" pretty much for every point. Here Tim specifically rebukes the EOC because "it lacks the unity of the RCC" since there are minor (non - dogmatic) differences between the various national churches (no more than among the various rites in the RCC but never mind...). Because the Episcopal Church in the USA is ONLY in full unity with about 50 other denominations PROVES its wrong and the the RCC which is in full unity with NO OTHER, not ONE other - proves it HAS to be authentic, true, authoritative and correct. It has to be one of the most absurd, most laughable apologetics ever made but a constant at CA.


IMO, Luther's "heresy" that Jesus is the Savior has persisted because it's true and the Holy Spirit has empowered it. The RCC attempts to muddy that up with a lot of semi-Pelagianism and synergism, a lot of mixing of Law and Gospel, a lot of confusing and entangling, a lot of ignoring the Council of Orange, is perhaps the problem. I rejoice that the RCC has not lost the Gospel (even if it calls it "persisting heresy") just turned what should be the clearest of all teachings into its most confusing, and has displaced it with a doctrine it considers more important - that the denomination dogmatically states there are exactly SEVEN Sacraments, and the "evidence" of being correct not Scripture but that the denomination has zero unity, is in full unity with NONE, agreeing only with the one self sees in the mirror (even that only in those areas where self alone currently states that self should agree with self concerning).




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Luther's heresy persisted because Catholics celebrated his birth and instituted a celebration of death known as all Hallows eve(halloween being Luther's birthday)
Till this day sorcerers lie about history.

Where sweets(leavened bread) are used to sway children away from The Lord of Host that provides a breath of Life to every living soul.

 

[pinacled]

Luther is an example used as an oppositional weapon to cast aspersions upon all those that oppose a false authority.
Then with force upon others the enemy uses intimidation to celebrate an unwelcome and incomplete victory by instituting a celebration of death


Those that question the beast that instills unholy days of unknown origin are demeaned.

Hence proverbs 9

Blessings Always

 

[Lamb]

Luther's heresy persisted because Catholics celebrated his birth and instituted a celebration of death known as all Hallows eve(halloween being Luther's birthday)
Till this day sorcerers lie about history.

Where sweets(leavened bread) are used to sway children away from The Lord of Host that provides a breath of Life to every living soul.

What complete nonsense. Catholics do not celebrate Luther's birth. Maybe instead of making false claims about history you should study it more?

 

[pinacled]

What complete nonsense. Catholics do not celebrate Luther's birth. Maybe instead of making false claims about history you should study it more?

[" On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albrecht von Brandenburg, protesting the sale of indulgences."]

In the above bracketed is a citation of historical fact.

And as I've stated before.
Celebration of all Hallows eve is a mockery of Luther's birthday.
The sale of indulgences has become a form of bribery to children in the form of candy(sweets)(leaven) as a reward for the celebration of death.

Remember what the Lord said about being, " born of water and spirit".
My reference to Luther's birth was of his spiritual one.

Blessings Always

 

[Lamb]

You wrote that Catholics celebrated Luther's birth. It's in the quote of yours. And I called that nonsense and am calling you out on it now once again.

Do you even know WHY Luther chose Oct 31 to post his Theses? The reason is because the next day was All Saints Day which he knew people would be in attendance at church and would view his writing.

Look into it some more before you try to make false claims.

Luther's heresy persisted because Catholics celebrated his birth and instituted a celebration of death known as all Hallows eve(halloween being Luther's birthday)
Till this day sorcerers lie about history.

Where sweets(leavened bread) are used to sway children away from The Lord of Host that provides a breath of Life to every living soul.

[" On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albrecht von Brandenburg, protesting the sale of indulgences."]

In the above bracketed is a citation of historical fact.

And as I've stated before.
Celebration of all Hallows eve is a mockery of Luther's birthday.
The sale of indulgences has become a form of bribery to children in the form of candy(sweets)(leaven) as a reward for the celebration of death.

Remember what the Lord said about being, " born of water and spirit".

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

You wrote that Catholics celebrated Luther's birth. It's in the quote of yours. And I called that nonsense and am calling you out on it now once again.

Do you even know WHY Luther chose Oct 31 to post his Theses? The reason is because the next day was All Saints Day which he knew people would be in attendance at church and would view his writing.

Look into it some more before you try to make false claims.

Thankyou for the
Interesting speculation of history lammchen.
I doubt very much that luther chose the date according to the assertion you cited.

From the vague and often manipulated historical records of catholic practice there isn't anything of value to be found.

Before Luther's protest against papal authority.

All saints day(s) may perhaps been on another date.
According to catholic records the date was moved to the 1 Nov for vague reasons.

I imagine it had something to do with luther.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

You wrote that Catholics celebrated Luther's birth. It's in the quote of yours. And I called that nonsense and am calling you out on it now once again.

Do you even know WHY Luther chose Oct 31 to post his Theses? The reason is because the next day was All Saints Day which he knew people would be in attendance at church and would view his writing.

Look into it some more before you try to make false claims.

Are you asserting that Luther's Germanic bishop would be reading the grievances/theses to attendees?

History is best viewed with a spiritual sense of discernment.


[" On 31 October 1517, Luther wrote to his bishop, Albrecht von Brandenburg, protesting the sale of indulgences."]

 

[pinacled]

The question before us:


In this premier, highly praised by Catholics RCC apologetic ministry (with MANY publications, radio stations, videos and one of the most popular websites on the 'net), we see something VERY common and typical in the video example of this thread:


1. Once again, there is the very specific, very harsh accusation of "Luther's HERESY" Note, it's not "104 wrong things Luther said" it's singular and it's specifically said to be HERESY (a specific term). This accusation is made repeatedly at Catholic Answers. But (as typical) the specific "heresy" of Luther is never mentioned, never identified (and thus never "answered" - the whole function of apologetics entirely evaded). WHY? Why does this premier APOLOGETICS site, priding itself as giving ANSWERS, not answer this, not defend this flame and division, not even identify "Luther's Heresy?" It's very typical so it can't be accidental.... Could it be it can't answer why its specifically "heresy" and/or can't defend the RCC's position in so powerfully rejecting it? Could it be that if CA identified the horrible, apostate, HERESY Catholics would respond with "But Luther was RIGHT in that, not wrong?" I don't know but the evasion is curious.... Why so powerfully perpetuate the division and flame if it doesn't identify the specific "HERESY" and evades answering why it is such and why the RCC is right? We know at most Christian discussion forums, accusing one of a singular, apostate, damning HERESY - but not identifying that and substantiating the accusation, would be a rule violation as well as obviously NOT apologetics or answering. Let's discuss.


2. Here again, yet again, in VERY typical fashion, Catholic ANSWERS notes that the RCC is correct in this matter it carefully won't identify because A) The RCC now dogmatically numbers exactly SEVEN Sacraments - and thus the RCC must be correct in this (never identified) matter, and B) The RCC itself currently agrees with it itself individually/exclusively/uniquely in those things that it itself currently holds is good for it itself to agree with it itself concerning and thus it MUST be right about this (not identified) issues. These are the two standard, "go-to" apologeical points of this premier RCC ministry (so praised even by the Pope). Do they "answer" anything? Are they true or relevant? Are they "apologetics" at all? Let's discuss these two "go-to" apologetics used in this video (and just about every other by this premier Catholic apologetics/answer ministry).



This thread is about the above.




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By definition luther never commited heresy.
In fact the only perpetuation of his rebbellion against and addressed to a single Germanic bishop involves the practice of indulgences(bribery).

After defacto Luther's grievances are used to further smear all who would challenge inordinate authority whom have not been held accountable to proper justice.
Something that has persisted because of the Truth that is in the heart of all children of The Lord.

Protesting is one matter.
Justice is another.

Blessings Always

 

[Lamb]

By definition luther never commited heresy.
In fact the only perpetuation of his rebbellion against and addressed to a single Germanic bishop involves the practice of indulgences(bribery).

After defacto Luther's grievances are used to further smear all who would challenge inordinate authority whom have not been held accountable to proper justice.
Something that has persisted because of the Truth that is in the heart of all children of The Lord.

Protesting is one matter.
Justice is another.

Blessings Always

Have you read what the Pope wrote about him? If you had, then you would know that Luther was called a heretic. I'm not sure why you keep spreading these false things?

Exsurge Domine - Papal Encyclicals

Arise, O Lord, and judge your own cause. Remember your reproaches to those who are filled with foolishness all through the day. Listen to our prayers, for foxes have arisen seeking to destroy the vineyard whose winepress you alone have … Continue reading →

www.papalencyclicals.net

 

[pinacled]

Have you read what the Pope wrote about him? If you had, then you would know that Luther was called a heretic. I'm not sure why you keep spreading these false things?

Exsurge Domine - Papal Encyclicals

Arise, O Lord, and judge your own cause. Remember your reproaches to those who are filled with foolishness all through the day. Listen to our prayers, for foxes have arisen seeking to destroy the vineyard whose winepress you alone have … Continue reading →

www.papalencyclicals.net

What is spoken of concerning history is always speculative in the eyes of blind men whom usurp authority ..

[ " Rise, Peter, and fulfill this pastoral office divinely entrusted to you _...."]

In the above bracketed is an excerpt from a supposed authoritative figure that seems to be pronouncing judgement upon unforeseeable enemies in a mocking manner.

Whether or not the source is an accurate record is mute as far as I'm concerned.

What sounded familiar in the above bracketed statement is elihu(satans) challenge of Yeshua(jesus) concerning stones and bread.

Thankyou again for sharing your position for all readers to see.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Have you read what the Pope wrote about him? If you had, then you would know that Luther was called a heretic. I'm not sure why you keep spreading these false things?

Exsurge Domine - Papal Encyclicals

Arise, O Lord, and judge your own cause. Remember your reproaches to those who are filled with foolishness all through the day. Listen to our prayers, for foxes have arisen seeking to destroy the vineyard whose winepress you alone have … Continue reading →

www.papalencyclicals.net

Thankyou also for the amusing material to read.
I haven't laughed with the Lord in a while.
It sounded like vadoodoo

There is a significant curse that I found important.

[ "Their tongues are fire, a restless evil, full of deadly poison. They have bitter zeal, contention in their hearts, and boast and lie against the truth. ]


Since when has a Tongue of Fire ever been called evil?

If I recall correctly The Lord of Host visited His Loved Ones during Shavout(pentecost) with a most beautiful Gift.

As for the article you shared.

" Bless those that curse", is what I've been taught.

Blessings Always

 

[pinacled]

Have you read what the Pope wrote about him? If you had, then you would know that Luther was called a heretic. I'm not sure why you keep spreading these false things?

Exsurge Domine - Papal Encyclicals

Arise, O Lord, and judge your own cause. Remember your reproaches to those who are filled with foolishness all through the day. Listen to our prayers, for foxes have arisen seeking to destroy the vineyard whose winepress you alone have … Continue reading →

www.papalencyclicals.net

Would you be so kind as to help others reading and myself to understand more about history.

In the papal letter there is a reference to an emporer of germany.
Is the emporer the germaniac bishop opposed by luther in letter?

 

[Josiah]

Luther's heresy persisted because Catholics celebrated his birth and instituted a celebration of death known as all Hallows eve(halloween being Luther's birthday)
Till this day sorcerers lie about history.

Where sweets(leavened bread) are used to sway children away from The Lord of Host that provides a breath of Life to every living soul.

October 31 is not Luther's birthday.



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[pinacled]

October 31 is not Luther's birthday.



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True,
Its ten days after according to the historians pen.

Interesting number, ?

 

[pinacled]

October 31 is not Luther's birthday.



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Did you find the heresy?