Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

[Arsenios]

Think outside your box.

One's thoughts ARE the box...


A.

 

[MennoSota]

Did God attach a promise concerning the serpent? Did He fulfill His promise?
Did God attach a promise concerning the blood on the door posts? Did He fulfill His promise?

Those are key things to look at when looking at the bible as a whole and understanding how God works.

Did God attach a promise to unrepentant infants being baptized? Where is that covenantal promise to infants like their is with circumcision in Israel? I haven't found it. Where is that located?

 

[MennoSota]

Was Christ Baptized in water that ALL Righteousness be Fulfilled?


A.

Yes Jesus was in the Jordan when he fulfilled that covenant piece.
Since you want to go down that road and Jesus fulfilled ALL righteousness, that would mean baptism is not needed at all since Jesus fulfilled it all. Is that incorrect?

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]

Is (water) Baptism simply an inert, ineffectual action or rite? A ritualistic act that God cannot use for anything? Perhaps symbolizing stuff or reminding of stuff but ineffectual of anything? Or does Scripture suggest that God actually can accomplish something via Baptism, that God can use it for something?


In the late 16th Century, the radically synergistic Anabaptists overturned 1500 years of Christian faith by inventing a new dogma that baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that accomplishes nothing (spiritual or otherwise). They invented an entirely new and never before heard of concept that "Baptism is visible, outward proof of the person choosing Jesus as their personal Savior." In effect, they claimed that Baptism is what Christians had held Confirmation is. It was a radical idea, a brand new one, reversing 1500 years of universal Christianity.



What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual.

IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma.

But there are many Scriptures, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...


Note....

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, (water) baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?" Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered.



.

 

[Albion]

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

.

Yes. This is the key to the whole issue. If there is no scripture saying that baptism is merely an obligation we go through to show God something or other (as though that makes any sense)...and the entire anabaptist argument is exposed for what it is--a human invention.

 

[MennoSota]

[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]




If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?" Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered.



.

Yes. This is the key to the whole issue. If there is no scripture saying that baptism is merely an obligation we go through to show God something or other (as though that makes any sense)...and the entire anabaptist argument is exposed for what it is--a human invention.

Your job is to show that baptism does something magical to the recipient. That it effects a magical change in a person's life.
I acknowledge that baptism is commanded after the person's are made disciples (Matt 28). That command is fulfilled for those who confess faith and have repented. We do not baptize those who are still dead in their trespasses and sins.
God, the Holy Spirit, baptizes us into Christ. We see this in scripture. Does the Holy Spirit require water to do this? Show that to me.
It seems that you and others have taken to worshipping baptism, much like ancient Israel worshipped the serpent on the staff. What God intended as a blessing has now turned into an idol.
Moreso, a false covenant has been created by stating infant baptism as a church ritual that replaces circumcision. No such proclamation exists. It is a practice that was created after the Bible was completed, with no biblical support.
I promote the obedience of believers baptism, just as Jesus commanded and the Apostles performed.
The burden of proof is entirely on those who add mysticism to baptism.

 

[atpollard]

The structure of Acts 2 is similar to the structure of the announcement of the Old Covenant. Presbyterians make much of this similarity as part of the claim that baptism has replaced circumcision. I would point out the similarities in detail, but it would probably just derail the established arguing of entrenched positions with a lot of pointless facts.

So carry on.
(I only mention it at all, because someone on an earlier page asked about it.)

 

[atpollard]

Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

Probably.

 

[Arsenios]

Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

Probably.

It is certainly not much for those who think it is not much...

However-

For the Orthodox, Not So!

Menno, I am sorry your baptisms are of men and for men...

Ours of of God and for God...

I can only agree with your baptismal assessment of your own baptisms...

Let's go sunny fishing in Lake Calhoun!


Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Your job is to show that baptism does something magical to the recipient.
That it effects a magical change in a person's life.

Does Jesus Christ effect a magical change in a person's life?

Was Jesus Christ baptized in the Waters of the Jordan?

Are we to follow Christ?

Are we Baptized INTO Christ according to God's Word?


Arsenios

 

[MennoSota]

Does Jesus Christ effect a magical change in a person's life?

No. We die with Christ and we live in Christ. No magic.

Was Jesus Christ baptized in the Waters of the Jordan?

Yep. So have many others before and after Jesus. What's your point?

Are we to follow Christ?

Yes. What's your point?

Are we Baptized INTO Christ according to God's Word?

Yes, the Holy Spirit baptizes us (immerses us) into Christ. No water needed. See 1 Corinthians 12.

Arsenios, you seem to think that only one type of baptism occurres. Yet, we see one ancient writer talking about baptizing cucumbers to make pickles. We see John performing a baptism that is entirely different than what the Apostles performed.
Is it so strange to you that the Holy Spirit baptizes without use of water and is it strange to you that the baptism performed by the Holy Spirit is effectual to immerse us into Christ, while the water baptism we perform is symbolic of what the Holy Spirit has already done?
When Jews perform the seder meal, is it actually the real Passover taking place or is it symbolic of what God did earlier?
Why would you refuse symbolism in baptism and communion while demanding something magical instead?

 

[Lamb]

No. We die with Christ and we live in Christ. No magic.

Do you think anything supernatural happens to the person born again (which should be translated born from above)?

 

[Josiah]

Is (water) Baptism simply an inert, ineffectual action or rite? A ritualistic act that God cannot use for anything? Perhaps symbolizing stuff or reminding of stuff but ineffectual of anything? Or does Scripture suggest that God actually can accomplish something via Baptism, that God can use it for something?


In the late 16th Century, the radically synergistic Anabaptists overturned 1500 years of Christian faith by inventing a new dogma that baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that accomplishes nothing (spiritual or otherwise). They invented an entirely new and never before heard of concept that "Baptism is visible, outward proof of the person choosing Jesus as their personal Savior." In effect, they claimed that Baptism is what Christians had held Confirmation is. It was a radical idea, a brand new one, reversing 1500 years of universal Christianity.



What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual.

IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT
and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma.

But there are many Scriptures, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...


Note....

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, (water) baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century





@MennoSota;


If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that is is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered.[/SIZE]



.

Your job is to show that baptism does something


.

I quoted many Scriptures.... and many early Christians.

You have stated repeatedly that (water) baptism does nothing (a foundational Anabaptist/Baptist dogma)

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that it is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?"

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered. IF you've got it, post it. Or perhaps here TOO, yet again, simply parrot the Anabaptist position and evade any substantiation, evade Scripture, evade 1500+ years of universal Christian faith?





.

 

[MennoSota]

Do you think anything supernatural happens to the person born again (which should be translated born from above)?

God chooses us. God adopts us. God places us into Christ. Is that supernatural, poltergeist stuff? No.
That is God, the King, sovereignly doing what He wills to do from before the foundation of the world.
In Christ we are a new creation. We live in the new Adam, which means we have a perfect relationship with God, just as Adam and Eve had before the fall.
Does this mean we are presently perfect? Read Romans 7 and 8 to see what our present, day to day, experience is like. God had Paul lay it out quite clearly.

 

[Albion]

Nothing will be resolved by these debates, unfortunately. Thats because one party will always resort to an endless repetition of claims that are unrelated to the subject, all the while also implying that some or most of us believe in them, even though we do not. Calling sacraments "magic" for instance, or saying that orthodox Christians believe that being baptized confers salvation.

But so what? It makes for discussion, one might say. On the contrary, it is killing the forum. Hardly anything new ever appears in the theological areas here, despite the fact that a guest would logically assume from the title of the website that such is our main focus. We have to stop this! The ignore function works well, but not if everyone else goes on entertaining the nonsense.

 

[MennoSota]

I quoted many Scriptures.... and many early Christians.

You have stated repeatedly that (water) baptism does nothing (a foundational Anabaptist/Baptist dogma)

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that it is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?"

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered. IF you've got it, post it. Or perhaps here TOO, yet again, simply parrot the Anabaptist position and evade any substantiation, evade Scripture, evade 1500+ years of universal Christian faith?





.

God can use anything, Josiah. He used a donkey to speak to Balaam.
What you are suggesting is that we humans can control God and force Him to do something He has never promised...simply because we have created a doctrine out of baptism that God never stated.
Josiah, do you believe water baptism creates a mystical union with God that does not exist in any facet outside of water baptism?
As for scripture...I have provided all the passages on baptism within the book of Acts, showing the connection between confession of faith preceding water baptism. You ignored it. There is no need to keep beating you over the head with scripture when you ignore it anyway.

 

[MennoSota]

Nothing will be resolved by these debates, unfortunately. Thats because one party will always resort to an endless repetition of claims that are unrelated to the subject, all the while also implying that some or most of us believe in them, even though we do not. Calling sacraments "magic" for instance, or saying that orthodox Christians believe that being baptized confers salvation.

But so what? It makes for discussion, one might say. On the contrary, it is killing the forum. Hardly anything new ever appears in the theological areas here, despite the fact that a guest would logically assume from the title of the website that such is our main focus. We have to stop this! The ignore function works well, but not if everyone else goes on entertaining the nonsense.

Go back and look at how dead the forum was, with days of no clicks. I suggest that the owner appreciates the clicks. But, perhaps you wish for dead space on the forum.
Perhaps you can create a theological topic that all agree upon and see how many clicks you get. Give it a shot.

 

[Josiah]

I quoted many Scriptures.... and many early Christians. Read the opening post.

You have stated repeatedly that (water) baptism does nothing (a foundational Anabaptist/Baptist dogma)

If you have a series of Scriptures that at least imply that Baptism is just an inert, ineffectual ritual God cannot use, then list them. Let's compare lists of Scriptures.

If you can list a number of important early Christians who clearly taught that (water) Baptism is just a inert, ineffectual ritual, that it is just "an outward SYMBOL of what the person inwardly accomplished" then quote them. Let's compare what Christians believed.

Here is your golden opportunity to show that SCRIPTURE supports the Anabaptist dogma and denomination tradition you parrot endlessly - compare the list of Scriptures and quotes that I shared in the OP with your lists - can you better substantiate that (water) baptism does nothing, that it is an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual? That it is "an outward symbol of what the person first achieved?"

Or will you just dodge the whole point, evade any substantiation for the new denominational tradition you so perfectly parrot? Let's compare your list of Scriptures about (water) baptism, your quotes from early Christians with the ones I offered. IF you've got it, post it. Or perhaps here TOO, yet again, simply parrot the Anabaptist position and evade any substantiation, evade Scripture, evade 1500+ years of universal Christian faith?


.

God chooses us. God adopts us. God places us into Christ. Is that supernatural

Yes. I believe GOD does it, and God is (by definition) supernatural.


You simply fall back on the Anabaptist assumption. Rather than respond to the opening post, rather than presenting your list of Scriptures and early Christians, you (who claims to be a monergist!!!) fall back on the rationale of the radically synergistic Anabaptists who invent all the baptist dogmas you endlessly (but perfectly) parrot. These new baptism inventions they created are all to make Baptism "fit" with their radical synergism. Thus your "magic" and "anti-supernational" point. Synergist believe that PEOPLE (in a very natural way) make the right choice - and this requires they be old and smart and informed enough to do it; THEY do it, not God - thus it is not "magic" or "supernatural." IF you were a radical synergist, this would all be consistent but since you claim to be a monergist (one who even accepts IRRESISTABLE Grace!!!!) it only shows you haven't thought through your own position, you haven't realized how inconsistent (as well as unbiblical) your Anabaptist dogmas are with your monergism and Calvinism.


Now, IF you have a list of Scriptures to put up next to mine - POST THEM! Scriptures about (water) Baptism that show it is inert, it is ineffectual, it "does nothing" (as you have stated). IF you have a list of early Christians who believed that (water) Baptism is just "an outward symbol of an inner accomplishment" to counter the quotes I gave - POST THEM.




.

 

[Lamb]

God chooses us. God adopts us. God places us into Christ. Is that supernatural, poltergeist stuff? No.
That is God, the King, sovereignly doing what He wills to do from before the foundation of the world.
In Christ we are a new creation. We live in the new Adam, which means we have a perfect relationship with God, just as Adam and Eve had before the fall.
Does this mean we are presently perfect? Read Romans 7 and 8 to see what our present, day to day, experience is like. God had Paul lay it out quite clearly.

Doesn't God also give you the Holy Spirit to reside in you? Is that supernatural?

 

[Lamb]

God can use anything, Josiah. He used a donkey to speak to Balaam.
What you are suggesting is that we humans can control God and force Him to do something He has never promised...simply because we have created a doctrine out of baptism that God never stated.
Josiah, do you believe water baptism creates a mystical union with God that does not exist in any facet outside of water baptism?
As for scripture...I have provided all the passages on baptism within the book of Acts, showing the connection between confession of faith preceding water baptism. You ignored it. There is no need to keep beating you over the head with scripture when you ignore it anyway.

You insist God didn't attach a promise to baptism. Yet, Josiah has given scripture to tell you that He does. Just like God made promises in the Old Testament, He does so as well in baptism. You insist that scripture is being ignored yet we see YOU as being the one blind to scripture.