Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

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Arsenios

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I have no idea how your response answers my questions.

Can... the baptized one become dis-joined,

have the union removed

so that baptism becomes null and void

because their own willful rejection

is more powerful

than the hypostatic union...?

Do you want me to quote the answer from my post?

Or do you want to re-read my post?


Arsenios
 

Josiah

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Josiah said:

4. Some will care.... some will note what Scripture seems to suggest and what the church universally (and passionately) believed for 1500+ years... and see some validity. Again, note the message of the OP. Some may conclude such falls a bit short of some claims (and they might have a point there). But some simply must deny. They may do so by insisting "But Scripture doesn't MEAN what it SAYS" ("But it has to be interpreted, spinned - ran thru the spin cycle so that it doesn't contradict me").



.

What does scripture say. Stop with your propaganda. Share the verse. Explain the meaning and how it supports your proposition. End of story.


As everyone knows, I listed Scripture. They say what they say. I realize you need/want to evade that, but what they say IS what they say. Just put your curser over the verse, CH has program that automatically shows you the words of the verse.

We all appreicate how you don't want to discuss the Scriptures or Christians. And OBVIOUSLY you have no other Scriptures or Christians to offer, ones that support your claims/condemnations. So you want to change the issue from what SCRIPTURES and Christians say to HOW TO SPIN THEM so that you can claim they don't contradict you. You want us to put everything into your spin cycle so that what they say is irrelevant, displaced by what you claim they MEAN. You've been called on it. Your ploy is exposed. You must run from what SCRIPTURE says (which only needs for you to read the words).... and you have NOTHING (from Scripture or Christians before 1500) that support your dogma. You've made it so obvious.

READ the opening post. Just give the reference to all the Scriptures (no need to print the words) that support your claim/condemnation and the quotes of Christians before that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century that support your position. Then we can compare the lists. Easy (IF you actually have any Scriptures.... any Christians). No need for running everything through your spin cycle. And if you don't have anything, you can use up 17 pages to prove that to everyone.... or you can be quiet and not make it obvious. We all saw the same exact thing in the other Baptism threads here.
 

Arsenios

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I have no idea how your response answers my questions.

Can... the baptized one become dis-joined,

have the union removed

so that baptism becomes null and void

because their own willful rejection

is more powerful

than the hypostatic union...?

Fourth paragraph first sentence...

AND...

Last paragraph first sentence...

Would you like me to copy and paste them for you?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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I have no idea how your response answers my questions.

OK...

Can... the baptized one become dis-joined,

No...

have the union removed

No...

so that baptism becomes null and void

No...

because their own willful rejection

is more powerful

than the hypostatic union...?

No - The dog can still return to feast on its own vomit...

He will be judged more harshly than had he never been Baptized...

viz from Her 10:

26-32
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,
which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing,
and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.
And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But call to remembrance the former days, in which,
after ye were illuminated,
ye endured a great fight of afflictions;


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Do you want me to quote the answer from my post?

Or do you want to re-read my post?


Arsenios
I read it a few times. It seems to me that you speak around the question, but don't actually answer the question.
 

MennoSota

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As everyone knows, I listed Scripture. They say what they say. I realize you need/want to evade that, but what they say IS what they say. Just put your curser over the verse, CH has program that automatically shows you the words of the verse.

We all appreicate how you don't want to discuss the Scriptures or Christians. And OBVIOUSLY you have no other Scriptures or Christians to offer, ones that support your claims/condemnations. So you want to change the issue from what SCRIPTURES and Christians say to HOW TO SPIN THEM so that you can claim they don't contradict you. You want us to put everything into your spin cycle so that what they say is irrelevant, displaced by what you claim they MEAN. You've been called on it. Your ploy is exposed. You must run from what SCRIPTURE says (which only needs for you to read the words).... and you have NOTHING (from Scripture or Christians before 1500) that support your dogma. You've made it so obvious.

READ the opening post. Just give the reference to all the Scriptures (no need to print the words) that support your claim/condemnation and the quotes of Christians before that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century that support your position. Then we can compare the lists. Easy (IF you actually have any Scriptures.... any Christians). No need for running everything through your spin cycle. And if you don't have anything, you can use up 17 pages to prove that to everyone.... or you can be quiet and not make it obvious. We all saw the same exact thing in the other Baptism threads here.
What do they actually say? How does what they say fit with your assertion? You never actually do this, Josiah.
 

MennoSota

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Fourth paragraph first sentence...

AND...

Last paragraph first sentence...

Would you like me to copy and paste them for you?


Arsenios
I read them. You seem to talk around my question and essentially say that humans can thwart baptism and thus nullify their past salvation.
 

MennoSota

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OK...



No...



No...



No...



No - The dog can still return to feast on its own vomit...

He will be judged more harshly than had he never been Baptized...

viz from Her 10:

26-32
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,
which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy,
who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant,
wherewith he was sanctified,
an unholy thing,
and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know Him that hath said,
Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord.
And again, The Lord shall judge His people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
But call to remembrance the former days, in which,
after ye were illuminated,
ye endured a great fight of afflictions;


Arsenios
So...once baptized...always saved?
Sorry, I'm not grasping what you are saying as it seems you say no, but then you add a whole bunch of yes you can at the end.
 

Arsenios

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So...once baptized...always saved?

Absolutely not - Just the reverse...

You still have to walk the talk...

Sorry, I'm not grasping what you are saying...

I am speaking from the EOC perspective, which is foreign to you...

as it seems you say no,

OSAS is totally foreign to the mind of the Ancient Faith...

Salvation is to be lived or it will be lost...

As a theanthropic member of the Body of Christ, that living will be tested hard...

"In the world, you will have tribulations..." [Christ]

but then you add a whole bunch of yes you can at the end.

Hebrews shows what awaits the dog returning to his vomitous sins...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Here are the verses on baptism. Note the common thread of belief and confession before baptism.

The people confess, then are baptized.
Matthew 3:6
And when they confessed their sins, he baptized them in the Jordan River.
Believe...then baptize.
Mark 16:16
Anyone who believes and is baptized will be saved. But anyone who refuses to believe will be condemned.
Repent, turn to God, then be baptized.
Those who believed were baptized.
Acts 2:38-39,41
Peter replied, “Each of you must repent of your sins and turn to God, and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. Then you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
This promise is to you, to your children, and to those far away—all who have been called by the Lord our God.”
Those who believed what Peter said were baptized and added to the church that day—about 3,000 in all.
They believed, then they were baptized.
Acts 8:12
But now the people believed Philip’s message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized.
The eunich believed, then was baptized.
Acts 8:29-31,35-36,38
The Holy Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and walk along beside the carriage.”
Philip ran over and heard the man reading from the prophet Isaiah. Philip asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”
The man replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” And he urged Philip to come up into the carriage and sit with him.

So beginning with this same Scripture, Philip told him the Good News about Jesus.
As they rode along, they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “Look! There’s some water! Why can’t I be baptized?”
He ordered the carriage to stop, and they went down into the water, and Philip baptized him.
Paul was preached to. He was told that God had chosen Paul. He was called "brother" and then Paul was baptized.
Acts 9:17-18
So Ananias went and found Saul. He laid his hands on him and said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road, has sent me so that you might regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.”
Instantly something like scales fell from Saul’s eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he got up and was baptized.
The Spirit fell on Cornelius and the men, then they were baptized.
Acts 10:44,47-48
Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message.
“Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?”
So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.
The gospel was preached, people believed then they were baptized.
Acts 11:14-17
He will tell you how you and everyone in your household can be saved!’
“As I began to speak,” Peter continued, “the Holy Spirit fell on them, just as he fell on us at the beginning.
Then I thought of the Lord’s words when he said, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’
And since God gave these Gentiles the same gift he gave us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to stand in God’s way?”
Repent, then be baptized.
Acts 13:24
Before he came, John the Baptist preached that all the people of Israel needed to repent of their sins and turn to God and be baptized.
Lydia believed, along with her household, and then they were baptized.
Acts 16:14-15
One of them was Lydia from Thyatira, a merchant of expensive purple cloth, who worshiped God. As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying.
She and her household were baptized, and she asked us to be her guests. “If you agree that I am a true believer in the Lord,” she said, “come and stay at my home.” And she urged us until we agreed.
The jailer believed along with the household and then they were baptized.
Acts 16:29-34
The jailer called for lights and ran to the dungeon and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas.
Then he brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.”
And they shared the word of the Lord with him and with all who lived in his household.
Even at that hour of the night, the jailer cared for them and washed their wounds. Then he and everyone in his household were immediately baptized.
He brought them into his house and set a meal before them, and he and his entire household rejoiced because they all believed in God.
Crispus and everyone in the household believes, then they were baptized.
Acts 18:8
Crispus, the leader of the synagogue, and everyone in his household believed in the Lord. Many others in Corinth also heard Paul, became believers, and were baptized.
John's baptism (showing there is more than one type of baptism) was not about believing. Here the disciples believe in Jesus, then they are baptized as believers in Jesus.
Acts 19:3-5
“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked.And they replied, “The baptism of John.”
Paul said, “John’s baptism called for repentance from sin. But John himself told the people to believe in the one who would come later, meaning Jesus.”
As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
A repeat of Paul believing, then being baptized.
Acts 22:12-16
A man named Ananias lived there. He was a godly man, deeply devoted to the law, and well regarded by all the Jews of Damascus.
He came and stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, regain your sight.’ And that very moment I could see him!
“Then he told me, ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and hear him speak.
For you are to be his witness, telling everyone what you have seen and heard.
What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized. Have your sins washed away by calling on the name of the Lord.’
Paul only baptized believers. He actually doesn't lift up water baptism as being of any significant importance in salvation. He says Christ didn't send him to baptize. Christ sent him to preach the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17
Has Christ been divided into factions? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not!
I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
for now no one can say they were baptized in my name.
(Oh yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas, but I don’t remember baptizing anyone else.)
For Christ didn’t send me to baptize, but to preach the Good News—and not with clever speech, for fear that the cross of Christ would lose its power.
Here Paul expresses that baptism is useless if the dead are not resurrected. It is because Christ arose that we are baptized.
1 Corinthians 15:27-30
For the Scriptures say, “God has put all things under his authority.” (Of course, when it says “all things are under his authority,” that does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.)
Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God’s authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.
If the dead will not be raised, what point is there in people being baptized for those who are dead? Why do it unless the dead will someday rise again?
And why should we ourselves risk our lives hour by hour?
People are unified with Christ, buried with Christ and then made alive with Christ, which is what water baptism symbolizes.
Colossians 2:10-14
So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.
When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision—the cutting away of your sinful nature.
For you were buried with Christ when you were baptized. And with him you were raised to new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead.
You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.
He canceled the record of the charges against us and took it away by nailing it to the cross.

So there is my explanation of the verses. I think they clearly reveal believers baptism as my church provides. I see no non-believers being baptized. I see no faith or the Holy Spirit being given to non-believers. I see no use of baptism as a form of evangelism in hopes that baptism might give a person faith and the Holy Spirit.

Now, will Josiah look at these same verses and explain how God ordains baptism to be given to anyone without discernment? We shall see.
 

MennoSota

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Absolutely not - Just the reverse...

You still have to walk the talk...



I am speaking from the EOC perspective, which is foreign to you...



OSAS is totally foreign to the mind of the Ancient Faith...

Salvation is to be lived or it will be lost...

As a theanthropic member of the Body of Christ, that living will be tested hard...

"In the world, you will have tribulations..." [Christ]



Hebrews shows what awaits the dog returning to his vomitous sins...


Arsenios
You seem to contradict yourself without caring.
At first you said baptism saves. Yet now you say absolutely not, just the reverse.
It seems as if baptism is merely a temporary payment, but then a person has to keep on paying the dues until death. Even at death, one cannot have any confidence that the payment given to God will be enough to gain entrance to God's throne.
Is that an accurate summary?
 
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Arsenios

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You seem to contradict yourself without caring.
At first you said baptism saves. Yet now you say absolutely not, just the reverse.
It seems as if baptism is merely a temporary payment, but then a person has to keep on paying the dues until death. Even at death, one cannot have any confidence that the payment given to God will be enough to gain entrance to God's throne.
Is that an accurate summary?

Not even close...

We are simply worlds apart in our understanding...

Vaya con Dio...


Arsenios
 

MennoSota

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Not even close...

We are simply worlds apart in our understanding...

Vaya con Dio...


Arsenios
Not necessarily in understanding (but maybe). I am not following your wording. What you say comes across as muddled double-speak.
What I get is that God accomplishes, but men destroy what God accomplishes so that it really isn't fully accomplished.

For me, God accomplishes what he promises. End of story.
 

Arsenios

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Not necessarily in understanding (but maybe). I am not following your wording. What you say comes across as muddled double-speak.
What I get is that God accomplishes, but men destroy what God accomplishes so that it really isn't fully accomplished.

For me, God accomplishes what he promises. End of story.

That is a good place to leave the discussion...

You understand that God's Gift cannot be lost no matter what a man may do...

I understand that to keep the Gift man must persevere in the Faith to the end...

Does this sum it up?


Arsenios
 

Lamb

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That is a good place to leave the discussion...


This is a wise statement.

There are times when members need to know that they have exhausted all that they can say in a thread about their beliefs because after that it becomes repetitive for pages on end and to tell you the truth, who wants to read through that?

Are there any new theological thoughts that can be added to this thread?
 

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That is a good place to leave the discussion...

You understand that God's Gift cannot be lost no matter what a man may do...

I understand that to keep the Gift man must persevere in the Faith to the end...

Does this sum it up?


Arsenios

I understand that the gift also includes the gift to persevere in faith. When God promises, he does not fail. When we fail, God does not hold that failure against us. God still upholds his promise and God's grace walks us through our failure. We see this process from Adam onward in the lives of the saints. All the saints failed miserably. God's grace and promise lifted up those saints and pushed them forward to persevere.

Perhaps our biggest difference is that you perceive the path to be on your own, without God's ordained assistance, while I see the path to be fully directed by God and promised by God unto completion. When I fail, God will pick me up, encourage me and walk beside me to the throne room. In essence, we can not, not, persevere when we are adopted children of the King of Kings.
 

Josiah

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Yup, I think we're done here, too.


MennoSota (and those embracing the Baptist dogmas of baptism) have had EIGHTEEN PAGES to give their list of Scriptures and quotes to support their 16th Century dogma that (water) Baptism is largely inert, ineffectual, only "an outward SYMBOL of a personal, inner accomplishment." And they did not. I think it is safe to conclude they didn't because they don't have anything.


Those supporting the historic, traditional, orthodox view have shared their Scriptures and proven the universal, ecumenical faith. Hopefully, some now better understand the perspective.


Yup, since "the other side" has made it abundantly clear they have nothing here too, there's no reason to continue.




.
 

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I think with the OP's agreement that this thread has run its course that it should be closed. If anyone has some new scripture to add, PM me and I'll open the thread back up for further discussion.
 
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