Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?

[MennoSota]

Yes. I believe GOD does it, and God is (by definition) supernatural.


You simply fall back on the Anabaptist assumption. Rather than respond to the opening post, rather than presenting your list of Scriptures and early Christians, you (who claims to be a monergist!!!) fall back on the rationale of the radically synergistic Anabaptists who invent all the baptist dogmas you endlessly (but perfectly) parrot. These new baptism inventions they created are all to make Baptism "fit" with their radical synergism. Thus your "magic" and "anti-supernational" point. Synergist believe that PEOPLE (in a very natural way) make the right choice - and this requires they be old and smart and informed enough to do it; THEY do it, not God - thus it is not "magic" or "supernatural." IF you were a radical synergist, this would all be consistent but since you claim to be a monergist (one who even accepts IRRESISTABLE Grace!!!!) it only shows you haven't thought through your own position, you haven't realized how inconsistent (as well as unbiblical) your Anabaptist dogmas are with your monergism and Calvinism.


Now, IF you have a list of Scriptures to put up next to mine - POST THEM! Scriptures about (water) Baptism that show it is inert, it is ineffectual, it "does nothing" (as you have stated). IF you have a list of early Christians who believed that (water) Baptism is just "an outward symbol of an inner accomplishment" to counter the quotes I gave - POST THEM.




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Josiah, I have provided the scripture. You blow past that and go directly to your anabaptist mantra. No one cares about the anabaptists of the 16th century so let it go. Address the very real and very specific issue of baptism and it's function as expressed in God's word.
Now, since there is literally nothing in the Bible about a covenantal baptism of infants into the church, let's just chuck that argument into the waste bin of worthless traditions.
Does water baptism invoke a magical, supernatural change in a human being?
No, it doesn't. Not once in any passage do we see a magical change because the person was immersed in water, had water poured on them or were sprinkled with water. The change in creation had already occurred by God's ordination.

 

[Josiah]

Josiah, I have provided the scripture.

Not that appear.

I gave my list of Scriptures and quotes from early Christians to show that Baptism is not "worthless" "of no value" "a mere symbol of an inner accomplishment."

So far, you have listed not one Scripture and not one Christian (before that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century) supporting your view that (water) baptism does nothing. Maybe you did and forgot to hit the "submit" button (if so, try again).

I'm glad to compare your list of Scriptures and Fathers that indicates Baptism does nothing, that it is only an outward symbol of a previous inner accomplishment - if you will please just list them.


Again, here is what I offered:


What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual. IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma.

But there are several, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century




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[MennoSota]

You insist God didn't attach a promise to baptism. Yet, Josiah has given scripture to tell you that He does. Just like God made promises in the Old Testament, He does so as well in baptism. You insist that scripture is being ignored yet we see YOU as being the one blind to scripture.

Perhaps I missed the scripture that connects baptism to a covenant. Please share that passage and I will look at it.

 

[MennoSota]

Not that appear.

I gave my list of Scriptures and quotes from early Christians to show that Baptism is not "worthless" "of no value" "a mere symbol of an inner accomplishment."

So far, you have listed not one Scripture and not one Christian (before that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century) supporting your view that (water) baptism does nothing. Maybe you did and forgot to hit the "submit" button (if so, try again).

I'm glad to compare your list of Scriptures and Fathers that indicates Baptism does nothing, that it is only an outward symbol of a previous inner accomplishment - if you will please just list them.


Again, here is what I offered:


What does SCRIPTURE say?


I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual. IMO, that new Dogma (one of the defining, distictive dogmas of Baptists) is without any Scripture whatsoever. There is not one Scripture that remotely indicates that Baptism does nothing, accomplishes nothing, that it is SO stressed in the NT and SO important in the Book of Act and placed equal with teaching in the Great Commission because... well... it is meaningless, worthless, not used by God. There is NOTHING in Scripture to support the Anabaptist's invented dogma.

But there are several, that when taken together, suggest something quite different. IMO, I'm not sure one can create DOGMA here, but there certainly is a powerful implication that God DOES something via baptism,or at least that this can be a "means of grace" - something God can use to convey His gifts. Let's look at those (hopefully the program here will bring them up for you to read)...


Acts 22:16

Acts 2:38

1 Peter 3:21

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 6:11

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:26-27

Ephesians 5:25-27

Colossians 2:11-12

Titus 3:5

1 Peter 3:18-22

John 3:5

Acts 2:38

Romans 6:3-4

1 Corinthians 12:13

Galatians 3:27

Colossians 2:11-12


I admit no ONE verse above is indisputable or perspicuous, but together there is a strong indication.
And of course we find nothing that indicates that it is a inert, ineffectual, useless ritual; only a symbol.


We need to also consider that Jesus, the Apostles and the Early Church gave great importance to this! Jesus places it along side of (and seemingly equal to) teaching in the Great Commission, for example. It seems less likely that it would be regarded as so very critical if it is an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all.




What Did the Early Christians believe?


Again, we find none - NOT ONE Christian prior to that synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century who view Baptism as just an inert ritual or symbol, but great things are ascribed to it. NOT EVEN ONE who spoke of baptism as "an outward act of an inner decision." Below is just a tiny sample. Note that the context of each is WATER BAPTISM.


The Epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 130) “This means that we go down into the water full of sins and foulness, and we come up bearing fruit in our hearts, fear and hope in Jesus and in the Spirit.”

The Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 140?): "they descend into the water dead, and they arise alive.”

St. Justin Martyr (A.D. 160?) "And we, who have approached God through Him, have received not carnal, but spiritual circumcision, which Enoch and those like him observed. And we have received it through baptism, since we were sinners, by God’s mercy; and all men may equally obtain it."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?). "And when we come to refute them [i.e. those heretics], we shall show in its fitting-place, that this class of men have been instigated by Satan to a denial of that baptism which is regeneration to God, and thus to a renunciation of the whole [Christian] faith."

St. Irenaeus (A.D. 190?) "“Now, this is what faith does for us, as the elders, the disciples of the apostles, have handed down to us. First of all, it admonishes us to remember that we have received baptism for the remission of sins in the name of God the Father, and in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became incarnate and died and raised."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "The same also takes place in our case, whose exemplar Christ became. Being baptized, we are illuminated; illuminated, we become sons; being made sons, we are made perfect; being made perfect, we are made immortal."

St. Clement of Alexandra (A.D. 215?) "For it is said, “Put on him the best robe,” which was his the moment he obtained baptism. I mean the glory of baptism, the remission of sins, and the communication of the other blessings, which he obtained immediately he had touched the font."

St. Cyprian (A.D. 255) responding to a man who was asking him the specific question of whether or not the pouring of water in baptism would be valid: "You have asked also, dearest son, what I thought about those who obtain the grace of God while they are weakened by illness – whether or not they are to be reckoned as legitimate Christians who have not been bathed with the saving water, but have had it poured over them."


There are countless more. My point here is not the individual things here said, but the unavoidable and universal affirmation that Baptism is not an inert, ineffectual, mere ritual or pure symbol...

Nowhere do we see any sense of it as some "outward ritual indicating an inward decision." Universally, baptism is seen as something God uses to accomplish something.

Not until the late 16th Century.... not until the Anabaptists invented the new dogma of "Baptism Can't Do Anything" did ANY Christian agree with that view or even express it.

The Anbaptist invention is found nowhere in the Bible and nowhere among Christians .... it is a radical new dogma invented out of the blue by the radical Anabaptists in the late 16th Century




.

All the verses and none of them make baptism a covanental requirement.
Christians years removed from the Bible writers is no different than you creating a tradition for your friends. Their tradition is irrelevant if there is no biblical connection. For example: Origen likely wasn't even a Christian, even though he wrote extensively about Christian traditions.

 

[Josiah]

Perhaps I missed the scripture that connects baptism to a covenant.

Read the opening post. Look for the word "covenant." When you don't find it, realize this isn't about that.

Then read the Scriptures. If you have Scriptures that support your position, that (water) baptism is "useless" and "accomplishes nothing" and "is an outward symbol of an inner accomplishement" POST THEM.

The read the quotes from the ECF. If you have quotes from ... well... ANYONE on the planet that shared your view prior to that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century, POST IT.

We then can compare our lists of Scriptures and quotes.




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[MennoSota]

Read the opening post. Look for the word "covenant." When you don't find it, realize this isn't about that.

Then read the Scriptures. If you have Scriptures that support your position, that (water) baptism is "useless" and "accomplishes nothing" and "is an outward symbol of an inner accomplishement" POST THEM.

The read the quotes from the ECF. If you have quotes from ... well... ANYONE on the planet that shared your view prior to that radically synergistic Anabaptist in the late 16th Century, POST IT.

We then can compare our lists of Scriptures and quotes.




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What, specifically, does water baptism do, according to you, Josiah. List each item for me, then connect a specific Bible verse to it so I see exactly how you connected a specific spiritual or physical attribute to the water baptism. I want to know your biblical position.

 

[atpollard]

Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?
It is certainly not much for those who think it is not much...

Does the mind of man really wield that much power over the reality of God?
How much does an infant think of the effectiveness of Baptism? (Is baptism not much if the infant thinks it isn’t much?)

 

[Josiah]

How much does an infant think of the effectiveness of Baptism? (Is baptism not much if the infant thinks it isn’t much?)

As a mongerist, do you hold that if the recipient of God's actions "doesn't think much of" something, ergo God rendered impotent?

Do you hold that circumcision did anything in the Old Covenant? How much did the baby "think of" circumcision? If the baby didn't shout, "Geeze, thanks God!" ergo God could do nothing for the baby via the circumcision?

As a monergist, as one who holds to total depravity and irresistable grace, why does everything hinge on what someone "thinks of" what the recipient thinks?

 

[MennoSota]

Scriptures that support my position. Read Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. Full support is provided.

 

[MennoSota]

What, specifically, does water baptism do, according to you, Josiah. List each item for me, then connect a specific Bible verse to it so I see exactly how you connected a specific spiritual or physical attribute to the water baptism. I want to know your biblical position.

Bump for Josiah to provide his proof.

 

[atpollard]

Nothing will be resolved by these debates, unfortunately. Thats because one party will always resort to an endless repetition of claims that are unrelated to the subject, all the while also implying that some or most of us believe in them, even though we do not. Calling sacraments "magic" for instance, or saying that orthodox Christians believe that being baptized confers salvation.

But so what? It makes for discussion, one might say. On the contrary, it is killing the forum. Hardly anything new ever appears in the theological areas here, despite the fact that a guest would logically assume from the title of the website that such is our main focus. We have to stop this! The ignore function works well, but not if everyone else goes on entertaining the nonsense.

If you are really interested in discussing the problem and solutions, you are correct in your evaluation that terms like “magic” are not helpful. However, that is only half of the problem. If I may illustrate using this topic as an example ...

The TITLE of this topic is “Baptism - Is it Innert or Effectual?” which sounds fairly neutral and only slightly biased (“inert” carries a slightly pejorative connotation compared to “effectual”, so the field has a slight slant at the start.). However, the opening post contains the the following excerpts that set the tone and boundaries and expectations for the discussion that will follow:

Is Baptism simply an inert, ineffectual action or rite? A ritualistic act that God cannot use for anything? Perhaps symbolizing stuff or reminding of stuff but ineffectual of anything? Or does Scripture suggest that God actually can accomplish something via Baptism, that God can use it for something?

(Note the discussion is framed in terms of what God can or cannot do, not what God chooses to do or does not choose to do.)

In the late 16th Century, the radically synergistic Anabaptists overturned 1500 years of Christian faith by inventing a new dogma that baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that accomplishes nothing (spiritual or otherwise). They invented an entirely new and never before heard of concept that "Baptism is visible, outward proof of the person choosing Jesus as their personal Savior." In effect, they claimed that Baptism is what Christians had held Confirmation is. It was a radical idea, a brand new one, reversing 1500 years of universal Christianity.

(There are only two positions, the correct position believed by ‘universal Christianity’ and the ‘radical’ and ‘never before heard’ position ‘invented’ in the 16th Century.)

I can find no Scriptures that state or indicate that Baptism is inert, ineffectual, just a symbolic ritual.

(Neither can I, that is why that is not what the Baptist Faith and Message teaches on the subject. However, that is the only position assigned to anyone that wishes to disagree with Baptism as a means of Grace.)

You claim to call for honest and civil debate, so I ask you ... was this topic really created and framed to facilitate an honest exchange of opinions and exegesis of scriptures, or is it a carefully crafted trap to crush a straw man by demanding proof of what no one actually claims.


***

Just to test my Hypothesis:
[MENTION=394]MennoSota[/MENTION]
“Do you believe there is any scripture in the Bible that explicitly states that water baptism is ‘an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all’ ?”

I have already stated that I know of no verse that explicitly teaches that, which is why I would not state that as MY belief about Baptism. How about you?

 

[atpollard]

As a mongerist, do you hold that if the recipient of God's actions "doesn't think much of" something, ergo God rendered impotent?

Do you hold that circumcision did anything in the Old Covenant? How much did the baby "think of" circumcision? If the baby didn't shout, "Geeze, thanks God!" ergo God could do nothing for the baby via the circumcision?

As a monergist, as one who holds to total depravity and irresistable grace, why does everything hinge on what someone "thinks of" what the recipient thinks?

I do not, but his response to my earlier post suggests that he may. So I asked HIM for clarification of HIS beliefs.
He suggested a link between human belief and the effectiveness of baptism.

 

[atpollard]

... or saying that orthodox Christians believe that being baptized confers salvation.

Your posts frequently confuse me.
I would assume that you believe baptism to be ‘effectual’ (as Josiah put it) rather than ‘Inert’, but here you complain that you are accused of believing that being baptized confers salvation.

What exactly is it that you believe ‘effectual’ baptism confers if it is not salvation?

 

[atpollard]

As a mongerist, do you hold that if the recipient of God's actions "doesn't think much of" something, ergo God rendered impotent?

As an interesting aside to this question, I may believe that God CAN do anything, but there is also some scripture that suggests that our faith (or lack of faith) impacts what God chooses to do:

[Matthew 13:58] And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.

[Mark 6:5-6] And He could do no miracle there except that He laid His hands on a few sick people and healed them. And He wondered at their unbelief. And He was going around the villages teaching.

[Mat 9:22, 29 NASB] 22 But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well. ... 29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
[Mat 15:28 NASB] 28 Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.
[Mar 5:34 NASB] 34 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your affliction."
[Luk 7:50 NASB] 50 And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
[Luk 8:48 NASB] 48 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace."
[Luk 17:19 NASB] 19 And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."
[Luk 18:42 NASB] 42 And Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well."

 

[MennoSota]

atpollard asked me:

MennoSota

“Do you believe there is any scripture in the Bible that explicitly states that water baptism is ‘an inert, ineffectual ritual that changes and accomplishes nothing at all’ ?”

The verses on baptism within the book of Acts and the epistles display a work of grace and faith that leads to confession and a public expression of God's work in immersing us into Christ. Baptism wonderfully expresses that God chose a way of redemption through the atoning sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection of His Son on my behalf. It is a blessed covenant between the redeemed and the Redeemer.
There is nothing magical, there is nothing mystical. There is covenantal fellowship, which is beautiful.

 

[atpollard]

atpollard asked me:

The verses on baptism within the book of Acts and the epistles display a work of grace and faith that leads to confession and a public expression of God's work in immersing us into Christ. Baptism wonderfully expresses that God chose a way of redemption through the atoning sacrifice, death, burial and resurrection of His Son on my behalf. It is a blessed covenant between the redeemed and the Redeemer.
There is nothing magical, there is nothing mystical. There is covenantal fellowship, which is beautiful.

Now if we could get a “real Christian” (I mean ‘traditional Christian’) to just explain what it is that they believe Baptism does accomplish so we can end this confusion about whether God uses Baptism as a means of Salvation or not. I know they believe it is “effective”, I just have no clue what they think it “effects” ... [must be a Lutheran ‘mystery’]

 

[atpollard]

deleted double

 

[Lamb]

Now if we could get a “real Christian” (I mean ‘traditional Christian’) to just explain what it is that they believe Baptism does accomplish so we can end this confusion about whether God uses Baptism as a means of Salvation or not. I know they believe it is “effective”, I just have no clue what they think it “effects” ... [must be a Lutheran ‘mystery’]

Lutherans ARE "real Christians".

 

[Josiah]

As an interesting aside to this question, I may believe that God CAN do anything, but there is also some scripture that suggests that our faith (or lack of faith) impacts what God chooses to do:

Interesting "take" for one who claims to be a monergist (even one who claims to hold to predestination, irresistable grace and "ONCE saved,ALWAYS saved.") What you post is - of course - the Armenian position that Calvinists so powerfully repudiate. IMO, God GIVES faith - life - justification. Entirely, wholly, completely for one and only one reason: His mercy and grace via the Cross and Resurrection of Jesus, the Savior. Not "first the dead must do x,y,z - and THEN God rewards their accomplishment with life and justification." Perhaps we disagree (yes, off topic... I was just noting AGAIN how Reformed Baptists often seem to so fundamentally, so foundationally contradict themselves).





But back to the issue. Does baptism do NOTHING (as Baptists, etc., claim), is it ONLY a meaningless ritual that accomplishes nothing more than getting the person wet, is it "useless" (as a poster here at CH stated), is it merely "an outward SIGN of a inner personal accomplishment" as those embracing the Anabaptists reinventions claim? OR is that dogma baseless, and the reality is that baptism can be effectual?

I listed some Scriptures and early Christians that, together, seem to suggest the Baptist dogma is wrong. I invite you to list your list of Scriptures and early quotes to show that Baptism is an ineffectual, inert ritual that "does nothing," "an outward SIGN of an inner accomplishment of the receiver." Let's compare our Scriptures and quotes.



- Josiah




.

 

[Arsenios]

Now if we could get a ... traditional Christian to just explain
what it is that they believe Baptism does accomplish

Thought you would never ask!

Water washed away all mankind prior to Noah, so evil was that generation...

Water saved the Israelites from death in their flight from Egypt...

Christ inaugurated Baptism for His Followers in the Jordan by John...

The Bible tells us:

The Baptismal Waters are the Waters of Regeneration...
That we are Baptized INTO Christ...
That we must be born of Water and Spirit...
That Christ Baptizes us IN the Holy Spirit...
That we are Baptized for remission of sins...
That every Baptism recorded in Scripture is through water...

So if one wants to be reborn a Christian,
one must be Baptized
INTO Christ
BY Christ
IN the Holy Spirit
THROUGH Baptismal Waters

Baptism accomplishes our rebirth into Christ...

Without it, we have pre-Christian Old Testament Salvation...


Arsenios