Anglican origins, claims, theology.

Albion

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Conflating the history of Anglican Church/Church of England with the presence of Christians in England was not my doing in this thread. The re-write was begun by others

What do you call this (which you wrote)?--

"It may be possible to date the presence of Christians in general in a certain locale, and the movements that brought them there; however, dating the Church of England, the Anglican communion, and those movements is an extension of that history."

That is you giving us the same line. It doesn't matter much who first posted the erroneous information. Making a post for no reason other than to agree with the claim is hardly any better.
 

Albion

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By this, are you meaning to equate the Anglican church/Church of England with the presence of Christians in Britain? If so, then I think my point is valid. You've conflated the two. If not, then clarify your point.
There is nothing for me to "conflate," friend. You and the posters you want to appeal to have simply speculated, imagined, guessed at another scenario for which there is zero evidence. It has been postulated simply as a "What if...."
 

MoreCoffee

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The church in England in 1520 was the Catholic Church with ties to the Holy See in Rome.

In 1560 the church in England was a Protestant church with no ties to the Holy See in Rome.

The doctrine changed, the ecclesiology changed, and the "Earthly head of the church" changed.

It is absurd to claim that the church in England in 1560 was the same as the church in England in 1520.
 

Albion

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The church in England in 1520 was the Catholic Church with ties to the Holy See in Rome.
I guess there is no reason to deny the word "ties." Yes, there were "ties."

It is absurd to claim that the church in England in 1560 was the same as the church in England in 1520.
Well, then it is your absurd claim. I never claimed that the church was the same before and after Henry. It, like your own church, experienced some changes. So what?

But now that the ridiculous claim that there was no church in Britain before the Reformation has been shelved--even by you as this post shows--I'm done with this issue althougn I would like to deal with any other misunderstandings about Anglicanism that any reader might have. :)
 

ImaginaryDay2

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There is nothing for me to "conflate," friend. You and the posters you want to appeal to have simply speculated, imagined, guessed at another scenario for which there is zero evidence. It has been postulated simply as a "What if...."

Shall I just tell you (an Anglican) plainly that the Anglican church has its origins in the Church of England? (rhetorical)
smh...
 

ImaginaryDay2

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But now that the ridiculous claim that there was no church in Britain before the Reformation has been shelved

Show me where this "ridiculous" claim (as you've stated it above) was made. Certainly it would be ridiculous to claim such a thing, and you concluding that suggests a misunderstanding of what was stated
 

MoreCoffee

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Albion

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Anglicans hold to heresy on a number of issues and many support ordination for female priests and bishops.

Just a minute. The thread is supposed to be about Anglicanism, isn't it, not what some Anglicans hold to? If the latter were the focus, we could say that Catholics favor child abuse and embezzlement just as easily and accurately. Indeed, it would make more sense to do that since there is only one Papal Church whereas Anglicanism is represented by many different church bodies the world over which do vary somewhat in their policies.

We take this for granted around here when speaking of things Lutheran, I have noticed, and we distinguish between the LCMS and the ELCA and other Lutheran bodies. We need to be similarly careful when dealing with Anglican churches.

I do not think it is possible for a female to be ordained according to the holy scriptures
Me neither. Same for my Anglican church.
 

MoreCoffee

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Anglicanism is represented by many different church bodies the world over which do vary somewhat in their policies. We take this for granted around here when speaking of things Lutheran, I have noticed, and we distinguish between the LCMS and the ELCA and other Lutheran bodies. We need to be similarly careful when dealing with Anglican churches. Me neither. Same for my Anglican church.

How many versions of Anglicanism are there?
 

ImaginaryDay2

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Anglicans hold to heresy on a number of issues and many support ordination for female priests and bishops.

This brings up again the issue of 'heresy' and 'error' brought up in another thread. I'm not wanting to divert into another "rabbit trail" with the point, but it ought to be noted.
 

Josiah

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SHOCK


Lutherans and Anglicans don't have identical teachings and practices. I know that shocks the daylights out of MoreCoffee. But then this thread isn't about Lutheranism, is it?


.
 

Albion

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This brings up again the issue of 'heresy' and 'error' brought up in another thread. I'm not wanting to divert into another "rabbit trail" with the point, but it ought to be noted.

Yes. I am not sure that women's ordination does constitute heresy. But that is probably irrelevant to the discussion. Some Anglican churches do ordain women (as of a couple of generations ago), while others do not--just as is the case with Lutherans and some other 'families of faith.' IMHO, it is important not to generalize when pointing fingers in this kind of discussion.
 

Arsenios

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I
I find it baseless and incredible to accept that the specific, singular, unique RC Denomination
(or even some predecessor or proto-denomination) existed anywhere in the First Century.
Or even Second or Third.

I agree, but then how do we answer those who observe that there were churches all over the world in these centuries, and if they were not denominations, then why were they not denominations, and what is it that makes a local Church a denomination or not?

The Copts, for instance, did not receive the doctrine of God as Three Persons (3rd Nicea)...
All the rest of Christiandom did, and withdrew their Communion from the Coptic Church

Does this make the Coptic Church a denomination?

If yes, why...??
If not, why...??

I find it the best historical position that the Roman Empire created the first denomination in the 4th Century,
and this Roman Church is the "source" of nearly all western denominations today (including "The Catholic Church").
.

Well, the Roman Empire outlawed the persecution of Christians...
And our first writings are extensively recorded from that point on...

What makes of this Church a denomination, as opposed to the Church in Rome or Constantinople or Antioch or Alexandria?


Arsenios
 

Arsenios

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Yes. I am not sure that women's ordination does constitute heresy. But that is probably irrelevant to the discussion. Some Anglican churches do ordain women (as of a couple of generations ago), while others do not--just as is the case with Lutherans and some other 'families of faith.' IMHO, it is important not to generalize when pointing fingers in this kind of discussion.

You guys do still have the Service of Compline and Small Compline?

Do you pray that Service regularly? [daily, weekly, yearly?]


Arsenios
 

Albion

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It depends on the parish, but the Book of Common Prayer was created during the Reformation era so that there would be a common standard when it came to the prayers of the clergy. There were at the time many different breviaries, etc. in use. At the same time, the intention was to make these prayers, services, and so on be available to ordinary parishioners for their own devotional use. Matins and Lauds were combined into Morning Prayer and Vespers and Compline were combined into Evening Prayer. Yes, it is common for parishes, unless they are very small, to have regular services of MP and/or EP. In the so-called High Church or Broad Church parishes, MP often precedes the Liturgy, while in so-called Low Church parishes it is likely to alternate, week by week, with the latter. Evening Prayer may be once a week in a typical parish of either sort.
 

Josiah

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I agree, but then how do we answer those who observe that there were churches all over the world in these centuries, and if they were not denominations, then why were they not denominations, and what is it that makes a local Church a denomination or not?



There always has been non-denominational congregations.



The church is US - the whole corpus of those with the divine gift of faith in Christ as Savior, the whole corpus of those incorporated into His Body, His Oikos, His Church, the church that is one, holy, catholic, communion of believers... one faith, one Lord, one baptism. PEOPLE.... Christian people.... together.


It should be appreicated that SOME Christians are not a part of ANY parish/congregation.... they are non-churched, independent of any parish. They are still Christians and still equally a part of His Church but not a part of any parish. BUT understandably (and IMO by divine command) these Christians gather.... assemble.... congregate.... (the meaning of the word "church") in a given locale and time. In Protestantism, we technically call these "congregations" (from the word to congregate or gather). They are not THE church (although we - like Scripture - use that word in this different sense) the the believers in it are the Church (or part of it - although the church cannot be divided), joined of course with unbelievers (seekers and even hypocrites). They gather for mutual love, support, growth, ministry, accountability - and for Word and Sacrament. Some of these are non-institutional, just an extremely informal affair of people gathering in a living room... some are highly institutional with legal articles of incorporation, constitution and bylaws, officers, property, budgets, etc. There are several of these mentioned in the Bible itself..... one in Corinth, one is Ephasus, one in Thessalonica... seven mentioned in Revelation. A few of these were founded by Apostles but probably most not (certainly not the one in Rome). We must appreciate that for 300 years, the church was ILLEGAL, often persecuted and thus at times "underground" and more a movement than anything.... so the institutional elements were rare in this time (the last thing you want is a membership list or an address the persecutors can use!). While a level of mutual love and care existed among some of these congregations. I note the Council of Jerusalem and the collection for the brothers and sisters in Jerusalem. But there is no denomination in these 300 years....

Denominations are formal, institutional "assemblies" of congregations. Less formal is when each congregation is self-contained but is part of a greater whole and submits to such on some level to some degree.... more formal is when the denomination actually owns and operates the congregations. Denominations are congregations that are legally, economically, geopolitically joined in order to give each other mutual support, cooperation, ministry, accountability. My parish's denomination began our parish (loaning it a LOT of money and giving us a founding missionary for a couple of years) and still supervises our pastor (whom it trained).., we give a min. of 10% of our total income to the denomination. It has lots of programs to help and support the member congregations, it operates the largest Christian publishing house in the world (Concordia), two seminaries, 12 colleges, and it sends missionaries to some 50 countries... agencies of it do still more, LHM for example still has the most popular Christian radio ministry in the world. When a congregation has an "issue," there are people and agencies in the denomination there to help. Member congregations help and and support and cooperate with each other. And yes, we are all pledged to teach in accord with the Lutheran Confessions. There are thousands)of denomiantions today (over 300 of them are Lutheran), but there is no evidence of any until the 4th Century, when the Roman Empire created one for itself. Some aspects of denominations precede that but no actual denominations.

Of course, there have always been congregations that simple are not a part of any formal denomination. They are, by definition, non-denominational ("non-denoms"). They are independent. Even in the early days, there were isolated congregations from China to Ethiopa to Ireland - never a part of the Roman Church. Even the Roman Church itself soon split (creating a loose federation of Oriental Orthodox). Although rather rare for centuries, they are common again. Today, southern California is filled with them.... indeed, most of the largest churches in California are proudly "non-denom." By brother is a member of one of these. "No Creed but the Bible! No denomination divisions! Just Christians!" is their motto. OCCASIONALLY, non-denoms are created because some denomination kicks them out.... and they may "find" each other and form a new denomination, but generally non-denoms stay that way, appreciating their independance. Non-denoms are just as much a congregation as any other - just independent, non-joined with others.



Where there Christians before the Roman Empire created the Roman Church? Yes. Were there Christian congregations prior to that? Yes, perhaps thousands of them. Are there denominations today? Yup, thousands. Are there congregations that are non-denom and not a formal part of any denomination? Yes, millions of them. Where there Christians in the British Isles before Rome founded the Roman Church? Yup. Where there congregations before that? Yup. Were those congretions owned and operated by the Roman Church or the Russian Orthodox Church or The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod? Nope, none of those denominations existed yet - especially not in the Brtish Isles.


I hope that helps.
 

Albion

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The Copts, for instance, did not receive the doctrine of God as Three Persons (3rd Nicea)...
All the rest of Christiandom did, and withdrew their Communion from the Coptic Church

Does this make the Coptic Church a denomination?
No. Denomination is not a dirty word or an insult and it is not a synonym for 'cult.' It is simply a term designating a particular group of churches with some sort of organizational or creedal unity as opposed to the common identity of the churches of Christ before the first great schisms.
 
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