Anglican origins, claims, theology.

[Albion]

So you're not a member of the church that you claimed started in 37 AD?

No. I'm an Anglican who is an American. Did you forget?

 

[MoreCoffee]

No. I'm an Anglican who is an American. Did you forget?

The way you wrote made it seem as though you claimed a direct connection to the church of England.

But I see now that you have only a verbal connection.

 

[Albion]

The way you wrote made it seem as though you claimed a direct connection to the church of England.

But I see now that you have only a verbal connection.

I am a member of an Anglican church body in the USA. I am not a member of the Church of England, and you have been focusing entirely upon the Church of England. None of the American Anglican church jurisdictions are branches of the Church of England or ever did have the king or queen of England as head of the church. Sorry that this destroys your main line of attack.

Since you have no idea what Anglicanism is all about, why not just more onto berating someone elses church? So far, its been Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and the Mennonites. Maybe Presbyterians now? Or Methodists?

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am a member of an Anglican church body in the USA. I am not a member of the Church of England, and you have been focusing entirely upon the Church of England. None of the American Anglican church jurisdictions are branches of the Church of England or ever did have the king or queen of England as head of the church. Sorry that this destroys your main line of attack.

Since you have no idea what Anglicanism is all about, why not just more onto berating someone elses church? So far, its been Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and the Mennonites. Maybe Presbyterians now? Or Methodists?

It is right and proper to deal with the church of England since that is what "Anglican" signifies. USA churches in that family used the name Episcopal church for themselves but perhaps yours is a newer one that has used "Anglican" for some reason.

 

[Josiah]

I am a member of an Anglican church body in the USA. I am not a member of the Church of England, and you have been focusing entirely upon the Church of England. None of the American Anglican church jurisdictions are branches of the Church of England or ever did have the king or queen of England as head of the church. Sorry that this destroys your main line of attack.

Since you have no idea what Anglicanism is all about, why not just more onto berating someone elses church? So far, its been Lutheranism, Anglicanism, and the Mennonites. Maybe Presbyterians now? Or Methodists?

It's a common Catholic thing...... whining about how everybody's always pic'n on pur Catholics while constantly condemning all non-Catholics.


Some years ago, I had an internet friend who was a member of the Episcopal Church USA (involved in the government of his parish) but very concerned about the CURRENT (not historic) theology and morality there. Eventually, the parish decided to leave the Episcopal Church and to associate with some foreign Anglican diocese (not sure how that works). They lost all their facilities (which went to the 10 or so members who voted not to leave but they had to immediately sell the property because they could certainly not afford them, so the denomination was rewarded with the selling price). The faithful now had an ANGLICAN parish and rented space in a commerical or industrial complex.

As I stated, historic/conservative/traditional Anglicanism is a bit too Calvinists for MY liking (hey, I'm LUTHERAN, lol) but I feel a very close kinship to the Anglican Communion (Lutherans are certainly closer to Anglicanism than any other major faith community) and I find MUCH, very much, to hold in esteem there. I think I could be a member there but it would be a conservative, traditional Anglican parish, not Episcopal Church in the USA. BTW, my own Lutheran pastor noted that when he does worship planning, he uses Anglican resources.



Blessings to you and your parish in this Epiphany season....



- Josiah




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[Albion]

I think I could be a member there but it would be a conservative, traditional Anglican parish, not Episcopal Church in the USA. BTW, my own Lutheran pastor noted that when he does worship planning, he uses Anglican resources.


Blessings to you and your parish in this Epiphany season....



- Josiah

Thank you. It's certainly appreciated .

 

[Albion]

It is right and proper to deal with the church of England since that is what "Anglican" signifies. USA churches in that family used the name Episcopal church for themselves but perhaps yours is a newer one that has used "Anglican" for some reason.

Give it up and go troll some other church. You are never going to get Anglicanism right, and the more you duck and dive and try to extricate yourself from your last blunder, the worse it gets with this topic.

 

[MoreCoffee]

The middle way

Another claim made by many Anglican writers is that the Anglican outlook is the via media, the middle way, between the extremes (as they see it) of Protestantism on the one hand and of Catholicism (and probably Orthodoxy too) on the other hand.

But Anglicans have a very wide variety of theologies ranging from very conservative views that adhere to the 39 articles quite firmly to very modern views that regard the 39 articles as a historical witness to what the church once believed but not accurately reflecting what it (meaning their branch of Anglicanism) professes today. Some will not ordain women as priests or bishops while others do. Some will not sanctify a same sex marriage while others will. This is the spectrum from right to left and many - perhaps most - are somewhere between.

 

[MoreCoffee]

23. Mary died on the 13th of January, 1559, and Elizabeth, daughter of Anna Boleyn, was proclaimed Queen, according to the iniquitous will of Henry VIII. I call it iniquitous, for the crown, by right, appertained to Mary Stuart, Queen of Scots, for Elizabeth’s birth was spurious, as she was born during the lifetime of Henry’s first Queen and lawful wife, Catherine, and when Clement VIII. and Paul III. Had already declared his marriage with Anna Boleyn null and void (1). Elizabeth was then twenty-five years of age, and highly accomplished, and learned both in science and languages. She spoke French, Italian, and Latin. She had, besides, all the natural qualities requisite for a great Queen, but obscured by the Lutheran heresy, of which she was a follower in private. During the lifetime of Mary, she pretended to be a Catholic, and, perhaps, would have continued to do so when she came to the throne, or have become a Catholic in reality, if the Pope would recognize her as Queen, for in the beginning she allowed freedom of religion to all, and even took the old Coronation Oath to defend the Catholic Faith, and preserve the liberties of the Church (2). She commanded Sir Edward Cairne, the Ambassador in Rome from her sister Mary, to notify her accession and coronation to Paul IV., and present her duty, and ask his benediction.
The Pope, however, answered, that it was not lawful- for her to have assumed the government of the kingdom, a fief of the Holy See, without the consent of Rome, that it would be necessary to examine the rights which Queen Mary of Scotland had to the throne also, and therefore that she should place herself altogether in his hands, and that she would experience from him paternal kindness. Elizabeth then saw that it would be difficult to keep herself on the throne, unless by separating from the Roman Church; she therefore tore off the mask, recalled her Ambassador, Cairne, from Rome, and publicly professed the heresy she had previously embraced in private (3).

24. All now she had to do was to get the Parliament to establish the Reformed Religion, and this was easily accomplished. The House of Commons being already gained over, the only difficulty was to get the Peers to agree to it. The Upper House was almost entirely led by the Duke of Norfolk, Lord Dudley, and the Earl of Arundel. On each of these Elizabeth exercised her influence, and through them gained over the majority of the Peers, especially as the lay Peers were more numerous than the Bishops, to declare her Head of the Church. All the regulations made in religious affairs during the reign of Edward VI. were reestablished, and those of Mary repealed (4). Each of these noblemen expected that Elizabeth, who was a most consummate intriguer, would make him the partner of her crown (5). There were sixteen thousand Ecclesiastics in England. Three-fourths, as Burnet writes, immediately joined the Reformers. The greater part of the Clergy were married at that period, and this was the reason, as Burnet himself allows, that they changed so easily.

25. Elizabeth, now fortified with parliamentary authority, prohibited most rigorously any of her subjects from obeying the Pope, and commanded all to recognize her as Head of the Church, both in Spirituals and Temporalities. It was also ordained, at the same, time, that to the Crown alone belonged the appointment of Bishops, the convocation of Synods, the power of taking cognizance of heresy and abuses, and the punishment of spiritual delinquencies. A system of Church government and discipline was also established, and though the doctrine of the Anglican Church is Calvinism, which rejects Bishops, together with all the sacred ceremonies of the Roman Church, as well as altars and images, still she wished that the Bishops should be continued, but without any other power than what they held from herself. “Nisi ad bene placitum Reginæ nec aliter nisi per ipsam a Regali Magistate derivatum auctoritatem” (6). Then was seen in the Church what before was unheard of a woman arrogating to herself the supremacy of the Church. How totally opposed this was to the Scriptures, St. Paul tells us plainly, for he says (I. Cor. xiv, 34) : ” Let women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be subject.” She wished that the Priesthood, altars, and sacred ceremonies, should be in some wise retained, for the people, she said, required such things (7). Thus it would appear that she looked on the ceremonies of the Church as mere theatrical representations, fit to amuse the vulgar. A new Hierarchy and new ceremonies were, accordingly, instituted, and, we may say, a new Martyrology, with Wickliffe, Huss, and Cranmer, as its Martyrs; and Luther, Peter Martyr, Henry VIII., Edward VI., and Erasmus, its Saints.

26. The benefices and the Monastic property were now all seized on, and part applied to government purposes, and the rest granted to the nobility. Vicars-General in spirituals were also appointed. All sacred images were removed from the churches, but she kept a Crucifix in her own chamber, placed on an altar, with two candles, but these were never lighted. The Mass was prohibited, together with all the ancient ceremonies used in preaching and administering the Sacraments, and new ceremonies were instituted, and a form of prayers commanded to be read in English, savouring strongly of Calvinism, which she wished should be the leading doctrine of the Anglican Church, but the government and discipline after a plan of her own (8). She then got the sanction of Parliament for all these regulations, and it was ordered that all Bishops and Ecclesiastics should take the oath of supremacy, under pain of deprivation and imprisonment for the first refusal, and of death for the second. The oath was this : ” I, A. B., declare in my conscience that the Queen is the sole and supreme ruler in this kingdom of England, both in spirituals and temporals, and that no foreign Prelate or Prince has any authority Ecclesiastical in this kingdom, and I, therefore, in the plain sense of the words, reject all foreign authority.” Elizabeth hoped that an order enforced under such severe penalties would be at once obeyed by all; but all the Bishops (with the exception of the Bishop of Llandaff), refused, and were degraded and banished, or imprisoned, and their glorious example was followed by the better part of the Clergy, by numbers of the Religious, of various Orders, and by many doctors, and several of the nobility, whose constancy in adhering to the Faith was punished by exile and imprisonment. Soon, however, these punishments were looked on as too mild many Priests, Friars, and Preachers were put to death for the Faith, and crowned with Martyrdom (9). Sanders gives a Diary of all the occurrences that took place during this period in England, beginning in 1580.

27. I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without relating the death of Edmund Campion, one of the many martyrs put to death by Elizabeth for the Faith. While in Home he heard of the dreadful persecution the Catholics, and, above all, the Missionaries who came to their assistance, were suffering from Elizabeth. He was a young Englishman, a scholar, and a linguist, and, burning with zeal for the salvation of his countrymen, he determined to go to their assistance. This was a matter of great difficulty, for several spies were on the look-out for him, to take him on his landing, and not only was his person described, but even his likeness was taken; still, disguised as a servant, he escaped all the snares laid for him, and arrived safely in the kingdom. Night and day he laboured, preaching, hearing confessions, and animating the Faithful to perseverance; he was continually moving about from one place to another, under different names, and in various disguises, and so escaped, for a long time, the emissaries who were in search of him. He was at last betrayed by an apostate Priest, while he was saying Mass, and preaching, in the house of a Catholic. He had not time to escape, the house was surrounded, and the master shut him up in a hiding hole, which was so well contrived, that after a most rigorous search, he could not be discovered. The bailiffs were going away in despair, when, at the bottom of the staircase they accidentally broke through a wall, and discovered him on his knees, offering up his life to God. They put him in prison, and he was then so violently racked, that when brought to trial and told to raise up his arm to attest his confession, he had not the power of doing so, and it was raised up by an assistant. He was arraigned as a traitor, for thus they indicted the Catholic Priests in those days, to do away with the honour of martyrdom. They put them to death, they said, not for preaching their Faith, but for conspiring against the Queen. When Campion was charged with treason, he confounded his accusers by replying : ” How can you charge us with treason, and condemn us for that alone, when all that is requisite to save ourselves is, that we go to your preachings (thus changing their Religion); it is, then, because we are Catholics that we are condemned, and not because we are, as you say, rebels.” He was condemned to be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution, and hanged. He then declared that he never rebelled against the Queen, that it was for the Faith alone he was put to death. He was disembowelled, his heart torn out and cast into the fire, and his body quartered. Several other Priests underwent a like punishment for the Faith during this reign (10).

(continued)

 

[MoreCoffee]

(continuation)

28. When St. Pius V. learned the cruelties practised by Elizabeth on the Catholics, he published a Bull against her, on the 24th of February, 1570; but this was only adding fuel to the fire, and the persecution became more furious (11). It was then, as we have already related, that she, under false pretences, beheaded Mary, Queen of Scots (Chap, xi, art. iii, sec. ii, n. 78). She was desirous, if possible, even to destroy Catholicity in all Christian kingdoms, and entered into a league with the Reformers of the Netherlands, and the Calvinists of France, and this league never was interrupted during her lifetime (12), and in the wars waged by these rebels against their Sovereigns, she sent them powerful assistance (13), and she left no stone unturned, either, to advance the Calvinistic Reformation in Scotland (14).

29. The end of her reign and life was now at hand; a Protestant author has said that she died a happy death. It is worth while to see what sort of a death it was. I find that after the death of the Earl of Essex, whom she beheaded though very much attached to him for the crime of insurrection, she never more enjoyed a day’s happiness. As old age came on her, also, she was tormented by fear and jealousy, and doubted the affectionate fidelity of her subjects. She went to Richmond, where the pleasing scenery had no effect in calming her mind; she conceived that all her friends abandoned her, that everything went against her, and complained that she had no sincere attached friend. The death-sickness at last came on her, and she refused all medical aid, and could not, her impatience was so great, bear even the sight of a physician. When she saw death approaching, she declared King James of Scotland her successor, and on the 24th of March, 1603, two hours before midnight, she breathed her last, in the seventieth year of her age, and forty-fourth of her reign. Thus she closed her days in sorrow and anguish, not so much through pain of body, as of mind. She sunk into the grave without any sign of repentance, without Sacraments, without the assistance of a Priest; she was attended by some Protestant Ecclesiastics, but they only exhorted her to persevere in the heresy she embraced (15). Such was the happy death of Queen Elizabeth. It is said that she used to say : ” If God gives me forty years to reign, I will give up even heaven itself ” (16). Unhappy woman ! not alone forty, but nearly forty-five years did she possess the throne. She became head of the Church; she separated the Church of England from the Roman See; she prohibited the exercise of the Catholic Religion; how many innocent persons did she doom to all the horrors of exile, of imprisonment, of cruel death ! She is now in eternity, and I would like to know, is she satisfied with all the crimes and cruelties she committed during her life. 0, happy would it be for her had she never sat upon a throne.

30. Elizabeth, before she died, nominated James VI., the son of Mary Stuart, her successor. When he became King of England (Chap, xi, art. iii, sec. ii, n. 85), he neglected to comply with the wishes of his good mother, never to follow any other than the Catholic Religion; he leant, therefore, to Lutheranism was anything but a friend to the Calvinists and was anxious that Scotland, which kingdom he retained, should follow the Lutheran doctrine also; but in this he was disappointed. His son and successor, Charles I, endeavoured to carry out his father’s intentions, and lost his head on the scaffold. He was succeeded by his son, Charles II., who died without issue, and the crown then devolved on his brother, James II. This good Prince declared himself a Catholic, and the consequence was, that he was obliged to fly to France, where he died a holy death in 1701, leaving one son, James III., who lived and died in Rome, in the Catholic Faith. In fine, unhappy England was, and is, separated from the Catholic Church, and groans under the weight of various heresies. Every Religion, with the exception of the Catholic, is tolerated, but the Faithful are exposed to all the frightful severities of the penal laws, and there are among the sectarians, almost as many Religions as individuals. In fact, we may say, that in that unhappy country there is no Religion at all, for, as St. Augustine says (17) : ” The true Religion was always one, from the beginning, and will always be the same.” *

31. I have placed at the end of the historical portion of the Work, the Refutation of the principal Heresies which infected the Church, but it is impossible to take any particular hold of the English schism, for it is not a Religion in itself, so much as a mixture composed of every heresy, excluding Catholicity, the only true Religion. This is, then, according to Burnet, ” The Work of Light,” which smooths the way to heaven. What blindness, or, rather, what impiety ! The Reformation smooths the way to heaven, by allowing everyone to live as he pleases, without law or Sacraments, and with no restraint. A foreign Protestant author even ridicules Burnet’s boast : ” The English, by the Reformation,” he says, ” have become so totally independent, that every one takes whatever road to heaven that pleases himself.” Thus the English Reformation refutes itself.

(1) Gotti, c. 114, s. 3, n. 2; Varillas, t. 2, l. 22. p. 284 (2) Nat. Alex. t. 19, c. 13; Berti, His. sec. 16.(3) Nat. Alex. loc. cit.; Gotti, c. 114; Varillas, t. 2; Hermant, c. 270. (4) Nat. Alex. ar. 6, Gotti, s. 3. (5) Varillas, l. 22. (6) Nat. Alex. loc. cit.; Gotti, cit. n. 3. (7) Varillas, l. 2, l. 22, n. 290. (8) Nat, Alex. .. 6, w. 2; Gotti, c . 144, s. 3, n. 5; Varil. l. 2. (9) Nat. Alex. Ar.6. n. 3; Gotti, c. 114, s. 3, n. 6, 7. (10) Bartol. Istor. D’Inghil. l. 6. c. 1. (11) Nat. Alex. t. 19, art. 3, s. 6 Gotti, c. 144, s. 3, n. 8. (12) Varil. t. 2, 1. 26, p. 437. (13) Idem, l. 29. (14) Idem, l. 28. (15) Nat. Alex. art. 3; Gotti, c. 114, s. 3; Bartoli, Istord D’Inghil l. 6 (16) Bartoli. Istor. cit. (17) St. Augus. Epis. 102, alias 49, cont. Pagan, b. 2, 3.

(saint Alphonsus Liguori)

 

[FredVB]

Catholicism and Anglicanism along with other related groups have heavy emphasis on their traditions. They are still far removed from what was important to believers among the followers of Jesus in the starting generations. What those early followers found of importance was life-changing. They gave up possessiveness and joined communally among each other, many of them at least giving up eating any meat. They did not give up Sabbath rest, but heard the words of Jesus and lived by them, not living in the ways of those of the world around them. They were not for killing anyone, but would be peacemakers among others, yet soon they were persecuted, for not observing traditions of those around them. Christians of various groups now are not much like them.

 

[Josiah]

Old thread....

I miss Albion.... Heck, I even miss MoreCoffee.



.

 

[hedrick]

[posting removed, since the thread is out of date, and the original posters are not likely to participate at this point]

 

[Confessional Lutheran]

Never mind. Google is a good thing.