Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[MoreCoffee]

Are you sure those prove your claim, MC?

What claim would that be? As far as I can recollect my stated position is that the vast majority of Christians in heaven decided to follow Jesus. Do you disagree?

They don't seem to prove decision theology.

I have no idea what decision theology is. Would you explain what it is for me please?

The Luke verse is about the life of the Christian...those already converted.

I am not so sure that Luke 9:23-27 is about already converted people. I am not convinced that conversion is an instantaneous event. The passage is about taking up one's cross and following Jesus. That seems like a call to conversion. The kind of conversion envisioned in that passage is a life long endeavour rather than an instantaneous event. Maybe you can explain for me why the passage is not about conversion?

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

The Revelation verse when taken in context shows that the unbelievers are outside the church in verse 15 and in 16 it is saying it gives testimony for the Churches.

The passage in Revelation is about a choice as well as other things. The verse in its context reads thus:

And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place. And behold, I am coming soon."

Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.

I John am he who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me; but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."

And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.

"I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star."

The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.

I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if any one takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen. Revelation 22:6-21​

Any reader is free to decide what the passage is teaching and what's the immediate context of verse 17 (shown in bold & underlined text).

John 6...well, you see that the unbelievers walked away because it was foolishness. The believers who had faith remained with Jesus.

It was disciples who walked away from Jesus. They did not believe him when he told them to obtain eternal life they must eat his flesh and drink his blood. Do you think they were damned to hell because they did not accept Jesus' teaching about eating his body and drinking his blood?

 

[psalms 91]

NO. More than once I have said that men can reject. Then they damn themselves.

Then we have to do something

 

[Josiah]

Then we have to do something

Then we are not saved by grace.... and the Savior is actually each self for self.

WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. It's God's GRACE (getting what we don't deserve/achieve)


IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR decision. YOUR intelligence and reason. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. It's my ACHIEVEMENT.



Which is it?



If that actually means you enter heaven is because of YOU (your works, your decision, you reciting the 'sinner's prayer', you being righteous, you being obedient, your this, your that.... you are good enough..... ) then you are the Savior of you. Now maybe Jesus was a good model or example or teacher..... maybe Jesus (and His mother) HELP you..... maybe Jesus is the Doorman who opens the door to those good enough to enter, those deserving to enter.... but the reason you enter heaven is because of YOU! Pat yourself on the back...... Thank yourself..... boast loudly.... you are the Savior of you! You've done God a favor.

If that actually means you enter heaven because of JESUS (His works, His love, His blessing, His gift, His grace, His mercy), because HE was righteous/holy/perfect, because HE died on the Cross for you, because HE is risen from the dead, because HE is good enough.... then Jesus is the Savior. Now maybe you should respond with love and works, maybe you should have humility and repentance, maybe you should grow to be more Christ-like in heart and life, but the reason you enter Heaven is because of Jesus, because Jesus saves, because Jesus is the Savior. God has blessed you.


Which is it?



SOME want to side with modern Pharisical Judaism or Islam or Hinduism and say "God HELPS those who help themselves, but you gotta do x,y,z." They want to say "Jesus is the Savior.... kinda, sorta.... BUT YOU gotta........" in order to enter heaven, in order to have forgiveness, in order to have mercy. But all that is just a clever way of saying Jesus does NOT save.... Jesus is NOT the Savior.... the reason I'm heavenbound is because of ME, glory be to ME, thanks be to ME, pulling out a plum and shouting "What a good boy am I!" It's insisting that we are NOT saved/justified by the grace of God (getting what we don't deserve), we are saved/justified because I did all I had to do, I jumped through all the required hoops, I jumped high enough, I am good enough, I am smart enough...... It's kind of an insult to the Cross, an insult to Christ.... but maybe good for the ego of self (all that padding of self on the back) .... until one considers the "ENOUGH." Am I good ENOUGH? Have I decided ENOUGH? Have I jumped through all the required hoops? After all, it's easy to trust Christ but if we are honest .... if we are real..... if we stop fooling ourselves... self actually makes a very unreliable Savior.

SOME want to say, "We are saved by grace but only if you do _________" then it's not grace.




Soli DEO Gloria....


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Again, I believe that God GAVE me physical/biological life. He used certain means (ask your physician if you don't know these) but it's still GOD who did it, who GAVE it to me. GRACE. I didn't earn it, I didn't deserve it, I didn't achieve it, I didn't help it, I didn't even request it. GOD is the Creator, the Life-GIVER. Grace.

In the same way, God GAVE me spiritual life, justification. He used certain means but it's still GOD who did it, who GAVE it to me. GRACE. I didn't earn it, I didn't deserve it, I didn't achieve it, I didn't help it, I didn't even request it. GOD is the Savior. God is the Life-Giver. GRACE. Ephesians 2:8-9, John 15:16, etc.


Soli DEO Gloria!


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- Josiah




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[MoreCoffee]

Then we are not saved by grace.... and the Savior is actually each self for self.

Seems to me that doing something is still a grace from God like Paul said to the Athenians "he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything" the "he" that Paul refers to is God.

 

[Josiah]

What claim would that be? As far as I can recollect my stated position is that the vast majority of Christians in heaven decided to follow Jesus. Do you disagree?

Again, your defense of decision theology is remarkable. Here again, yet again, you not only are wrong but once again teaching very UNCATHOLIC ideas, contradicting your own denomination (and all my Catholic teachers). The RC Denomination not only officially denounces and condemns decision theology but actually officially teaches predestination. You are contradicting your own denomination and revealing just how much many Catholics have exchanged Catholicism for Arminianistic "Evangelicalism". See http://catholicexchange.com/church-say-predestination etc, etc., etc., etc. As your priest would tell you, the RC Denomination actually agrees with Luther on single predestination and that faith is GIVEN entirely by God, it's disagreement was with Calvin and with Arminius (whom you are so passionately parroting) but yeah, a lot of "Catholics" have abandoned Catholicism in favor of Arminianistic "Evangelicalism" at the very points that Orange and Trent and other Councils declared to be heresies. So ironic to read/hear "Catholics" like you.

MoreCoffee, learn what your own denomination officially teaches (in Ecumenical Councils, no less) before you denounce Catholicism and support Arminius (whom your denomination declared a heretic on this point).



Thank you.



- Josiah



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[MoreCoffee]

Again, your defense of decision theology is remarkable. Thank you. ..
- Josiah

What is decision theology?

 

[Josiah]

What is decision theology?

What you are parroting and defending in this thread. Condemned as heretical at several official RCC Councils (including Orange and Trent).

 

[MoreCoffee]

...

I have no idea what you mean by decision theology, please explain what it is.

 

[Rens]

Again, your defense of decision theology is remarkable. Here again, yet again, you not only are wrong but once again teaching very UNCATHOLIC ideas, contradicting your own denomination (and all my Catholic teachers). The RC Denomination not only officially denounces and condemns decision theology but actually officially teaches predestination. You are contradicting your own denomination and revealing just how much many Catholics have exchanged Catholicism for Arminianistic "Evangelicalism". See http://catholicexchange.com/church-say-predestination etc, etc., etc., etc. As your priest would tell you, the RC Denomination actually agrees with Luther on single predestination and that faith is GIVEN entirely by God, it's disagreement was with Calvin and with Arminius (whom you are so passionately parroting) but yeah, a lot of "Catholics" have abandoned Catholicism in favor of Arminianistic "Evangelicalism" at the very points that Orange and Trent and other Councils declared to be heresies. So ironic to read/hear "Catholics" like you.

MoreCoffee, learn what your own denomination officially teaches (in Ecumenical Councils, no less) before you denounce Catholicism and support Arminius (whom your denomination declared a heretic on this point).



Thank you.



- Josiah



.

Why does predestination make a decision wrong?
If you're predestined you choose to accept Christ. Those people that ate the bread and fish and left Him did so and did not accept His teaching because it was not given to them from the Father. 2 sides of the same coin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Why does predestination make a decision wrong?
If you're predestined you choose to accept Christ. Those people that ate the bread and fish and left Him did so and did not accept His teaching because it was not given to them from the Father. 2 sides of the same coin.

I agree with you that making a decision to follow Jesus does not abrogate grace as the effective cause of a person's final salvation - making decisions is a grace given to human beings by God anyway just as life and breath are gifts of God's grace. Since every good gift is from God [SUP]James 1:17[/SUP] every Christian ought to know and affirm that whatever good they do or choose is a gift from God.

 

[Rens]

Then we are not saved by grace.... and the Savior is actually each self for self.










- Josiah




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Why not saved by grace? The grace of God leads to repentance.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/evangelicalpulpit/2014/10/luther-and-the-joy-of-repentance/

 

[Lamb]

Then we have to do something

For salvation? What percentage do YOU have to do in order for God to finally save you? Jesus isn't enough?

 

[Lamb]

Seems to me that doing something is still a grace from God like Paul said to the Athenians "he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything" the "he" that Paul refers to is God.

Doesn't your faith rely on the Savior? Don't you live out your life because of the Savior and not to get saved?

 

[Lamb]

Why does predestination make a decision wrong?
If you're predestined you choose to accept Christ. Those people that ate the bread and fish and left Him did so and did not accept His teaching because it was not given to them from the Father. 2 sides of the same coin.

If God already has you in the palm of his hand, how do you choose to be there if you're already there? He is the one who gives you faith to trust that your sins are forgiven so you may have eternal life. Now that you have faith, you can't choose your way into it. You have it. It's yours.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Doesn't your faith rely on the Savior? Don't you live out your life because of the Savior and not to get saved?

I do not know what you mean. I live my faith because I want to be with God. I do not see any contradiction between loving God and wanting to be with God, do you?

 

[Lamb]

I do not know what you mean. I live my faith because I want to be with God. I do not see any contradiction between loving God and wanting to be with God, do you?

This thread is about saved by grace or decision. Living our lives by faith is not about getting saved. I asked the question because you keep resorting to how you live your life and that's not going to get you saved. Jesus saves.

 

[Josiah]

Why does predestination make a decision wrong?

It means we didn't choose Jesus, He chose us (which is EXACTLY what Jesus said). I guess you COULD (perhaps, maybe) say a choice was made - it just wasn't ours.

The point is: are we saved (justification, narrow) by what WE do (for example, make a cognative choice) OR by what Jesus did/does? Or to put the exact same thing another way, is Jesus the Savior or is each self for self?

IF we gotta do something to be justified, then it's (by definition) NOT saved by grace...... it usually makes Jesus irrelevant or in milder versions, means that Jesus still has some role, just not as the Savior (perhaps He is the Doorman who opens the door to heaven to those who have performed as required or who are good ENOUGH or believe ENOUGH or decided good ENOUGH to know good ENOUGH or are obedient ENOUGH or who love ENOUGH or have 'surrendered the steering wheel of their lives" good ENOUGH). Or perhaps Jesus becomes the Possibility Maker (as our Catholic teachers taught us) - He opened the gate to heaven making it possible for us to save ourselves; we entering by our being good enough and successful enough to do so.

If you're predestined you choose to accept Christ.

If you are predestined, by definition, God chose you. Although that's a bit of a different point than what we're discussion (but it too makes decision theology unbiblical).

Those people that ate the bread and fish and left Him did so and did not accept His teaching because it was not given to them from the Father.

Yes, a valid point. We will walk away. It is the "default position." The only "choice" WE can make is "no." IF it were a matter of our "decision" then 100% of the decisions would be "no way!" "NO ONE is capable of saying 'Jesus is Lord' (have faith) unless the Holy Spirit grants it." "It is the gift of God." "You were DEAD...." (spiritually DEAD can't do anything spiritual). Thus we CANNOT "decide" ..... we CANNOT save ourselves (we need a Savior - and there's good news on that point).


I hope that helps.

I live my faith because I want to be with God. I do not see any contradiction between loving God and wanting to be with God, do you?

MoreCoffee -


Perhaps. Just ENTIRELY, WHOLLY irrelevant to anything remotely related to this thread. As you have been told by several over and over again, this thread is not about sustaining anything or living anything. This has been explained to you many times. If you want or need to evade the topic or change the topic, that's fine but may I suggest you begin a new thread for your entirely different topic?

Did you watch the opening video?

This thread is about saved by grace or decision.

Ahha. As the title states As the opening post makes crystal clear.




Blessings!



- Josiah



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[MoreCoffee]

This thread is about saved by grace or decision. Living our lives by faith is not about getting saved. I asked the question because you keep resorting to how you live your life and that's not going to get you saved. Jesus saves.

I cannot agree with your theological assumptions. No one is saved by decisions nor in an instant but every one is saved by grace and everyone who will be saved does make decisions to follow Jesus. The theological assumptions your posts make are tied to teaching that salvation is an instantaneous event that happened in the past for every Christian here on CH. My perspective is like the one Jesus explained in Luke 9:23-27 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

I wonder if you intend to answer post #81, let me know please.

 

[Lamb]

I cannot agree with your theological assumptions. No one is saved by decisions nor in an instant but every one is saved by grace and everyone who will be saved does make decisions to follow Jesus. The theological assumptions your posts make are tied to teaching that salvation is an instantaneous event that happened in the past for every Christian here on CH. My perspective is like the one Jesus explained in Luke 9:23-27 "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

I wonder if you intend to answer post #81, let me know please.

Are you your own Savior or is Jesus your Savior? Who is saving you?

As for your question, I consider my initial post to stand, so I see no further reason to add more.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Are you your own Savior or is Jesus your Savior? Who is saving you?

As for your question, I consider my initial post to stand, so I see no further reason to add more.

I give up, it is like talking to a brick wall.