Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Lamb]

I would think the subject would be the prisoner acceptance of the pardon not that the governor had granted it. We nave the choice to remain in prison or not after hearing of the pardon.

A prisoner is considered free once that pardon is given. It's a legal thing.

 

[Lamb]

https://issuesetc.org/2014/10/17/2-...-with-your-mouth-pr-bryan-wolfmueller-101714/

I'm listening to this audio now and a good point is being made. For those who rely on their decision to be saved, then you are trusting in your will to convert yourself. But scripture goes out of its way to tell us that God is converting our will that is naturally against him (original sin) and conforming it so that we believe.

 

[Josiah]

A prisoner is considered free once that pardon is given. It's a legal thing.

In the days before Hansen's Disease was cured in the 1950's, Leprosy (and it's commonly called) was among the most dreaded diseases in the world. Victims were often hidden away in colonies or hospitals (usually, against their will). The largest in the USA was commonly known as "Carville" where some 3000 victims where essentially imprisoned.

In the 1930's, due to severe budget cuts, the hospital had to eliminate all the security measures and guards. So they substituted psychological measures: They hold the patients that everyone (including their families) hated and feared them.... and if they left, they would probably be killed or at least returned. It worked. No one tried to leave....

In the 1950's, a cure was found and applied to all at Carville. They were free to leave and rejoin their families. FEW DID. The hospital (which planned to close) had to stay open to care for the thousands who would not leave. In 1994, when the hospital finally was shut down, there will still patients there...... cured 40 years earlier but by their choice, still imprisioned in that hospital...... Did they still have Hansen's Disease? Were they actually cured? Were they thus free? Did they have the faith to leave? The doctors were able to cure the disease but not grant the faith for them to leave.....

Jesus is the Savior of all the world..... But no one is able to invent/create the faith to accept and rely on that. "NO ONE is ABLE to even say 'Jesus is Lord' UNLESS the Holy Spirit grants it" says the Bible. "You did not choose me but I chose you" Jesus said. "Faith is the gift of God and not a result of you, lest you'd have reason to boast." St. Paul wrote. GOD can cure... and GOD can give the faith. Without that gift, we - like those patients at Carville - are still imprisoned.




Again, I believe that God GAVE me physical/biological life. He used certain means (ask your physician if you don't know these) but it's still GOD who did it, who GAVE it to me. GRACE. I didn't earn it, I didn't deserve it, I didn't achieve it, I didn't help it, I didn't even request it. GOD is the Creator, the Life-GIVER. Grace.

In the same way, God GAVE me spiritual life, justification. He used certain means but it's still GOD who did it, who GAVE it to me. GRACE. I didn't earn it, I didn't deserve it, I didn't achieve it, I didn't help it, I didn't even request it. GOD is the Savior. God is the Life-Giver. GRACE. Ephesians 2:8-9, John 15:16, etc.


Soli DEO Gloria!



- Josiah



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[Cassia]

I think the point is being missed that no one believes that a decision saves ... those who don't accept grace are not those who can see the disfigurements of leprecy. It's those who can't see the need of a savior. Grace is there to save. Just as it's presented to others in hearing but not all accept the teaching.

 

[Lamb]

I think the point is being missed that no one believes that a decision saves ... those who don't accept grace are not those who can see the disfigurements of leprecy. It's those who can't see the need of a savior. Grace is there to save. Just as it's presented to others in hearing but not all accept the teaching.

In your first post in this thread (post #2) you wrote that man has to accept the Savior's saving grace.

What do you mean by accept? Some evangelicals use "accept" as something they have to actively do or they can't be saved.

If a Lutheran says "accept", I know they mean receive or acknowledge but that it isn't what saves. We're saved by grace through faith and we acknowledge that as a confession. In other words, we don't make it a condition.

 

[Cassia]

In your first post in this thread (post #2) you wrote that man has to accept the Savior's saving grace.

What do you mean by accept? Some evangelicals use "accept" as something they have to actively do or they can't be saved.

If a Lutheran says "accept", I know they mean receive or acknowledge but that it isn't what saves. We're saved by grace through faith and we acknowledge that as a confession. In other words, we don't make it a condition.

Belief in Jesus is what's needed and that includes His estimation of our fallen state acknowledged.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

 

[Lamb]

Belief in Jesus is what's needed and that includes His estimation of our fallen state acknowledged.

Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.

We are given faith as a gift to believe.

The choice then isn't to accept what is already given to you, for you have it. The only choice after that is if it's rejected.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Agreed. And "grace" here means GOD's favor, blessing, gift.....

In Ephesians 2:8-10 grace means something that God gives. He gives it freely. And he does show favour that is not deserved when he gives grace but grace is not as narrow as "God's favour" it is greater than that.

Ephesians 2:8-9 John 15:16
And of course, if justification "hinges" entirely on something WE do

Justification is not the subject in Ephesians 2:8-10 nor is it the subject in John 15:16.

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10

You are my friends if you do what I command you. No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you. This I command you, to love one another. John 15:14-17
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But humans are made just by God's grace and God's grace is the subject in Ephesians 2:8-10. In John 15:14-17 the subject is obedience to God and God's generosity through his gifts given by the Lord Jesus.

, OUR work and accomplishment (making a decision), then the Savior is us. That would mean that Jesus may make salvation POSSIBLE but it's the one self sees in the mirror that actually caused it, brought it about, saved... and self who pats self on the back.
Soli DEO Gloria.....
- Josiah

Almost every Christian in heaven made a decision to follow Jesus. Decisions do matter.

 

[Josiah]

WHO is the SAVIOR?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. It's God's GRACE (getting what we don't deserve/achieve)


IF you answer "me!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR decision. YOUR intelligence and reason. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. It's my ACHIEVEMENT.



Which is it?



If that actually means you enter heaven is because of YOU (your works, your decision, you reciting the 'sinner's prayer', you being righteous, you being obedient, your this, your that.... you are good enough..... ) then you are the Savior of you. Now maybe Jesus was a good model or example or teacher..... maybe Jesus (and His mother) HELP you..... maybe Jesus is the Doorman who opens the door to those good enough to enter, those deserving to enter.... but the reason you enter heaven is because of YOU! Pat yourself on the back...... Thank yourself..... boast loudly.... you are the Savior of you! You've done God a favor.

If that actually means you enter heaven because of JESUS (His works, His love, His blessing, His gift, His grace, His mercy), because HE was righteous/holy/perfect, because HE died on the Cross for you, because HE is risen from the dead, because HE is good enough.... then Jesus is the Savior. Now maybe you should respond with love and works, maybe you should have humility and repentance, maybe you should grow to be more Christ-like in heart and life, but the reason you enter Heaven is because of Jesus, because Jesus saves, because Jesus is the Savior. God has blessed you.


Which is it?



SOME want to side with modern Pharisical Judaism or Islam or Hinduism and say "God HELPS those who help themselves, but you gotta do x,y,z." They want to say "Jesus is the Savior.... kinda, sorta.... BUT YOU gotta........" in order to enter heaven, in order to have forgiveness, in order to have mercy. But all that is just a clever way of saying Jesus does NOT save.... Jesus is NOT the Savior.... the reason I'm heavenbound is because of ME, glory be to ME, thanks be to ME, pulling out a plum and shouting "What a good boy am I!" It's insisting that we are NOT saved/justified by the grace of God (getting what we don't deserve), we are saved/justified because I did all I had to do, I jumped through all the required hoops, I jumped high enough, I am good enough, I am smart enough...... It's kind of an insult to the Cross, an insult to Christ.... but maybe good for the ego of self (all that padding of self on the back) .... until one considers the "ENOUGH." Am I good ENOUGH? Have I decided ENOUGH? Have I jumped through all the required hoops? After all, it's easy to trust Christ but if we are honest .... if we are real..... if we stop fooling ourselves... self actually makes a very unreliable Savior.

SOME want to say, "We are saved by grace but only if you do _________" then it's not grace.




Soli DEO Gloria....



- Josiah




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[Lamb]

Almost every Christian in heaven made a decision to follow Jesus. Decisions do matter.

Scriptures do not put a condition for salvation in our decision. Salvation is God's work, not a role we play otherwise we'd be part Savior.

Every Christian in heaven realized that God has forgiven them (because through His word He told them) and faith was given to trust in that (faith given as a gift by God).

 

[psalms 91]

Then you are saying that God picks and chooses who He will and the rest are just out of luck? Different bible than the one I read

 

[Brighten04]

I wish I could Rep this more than once because it's so accurate. God gives life Our response is just that. Response. Not life giving.

Does you denomination extend the invitation to Christian discipleship?

 

[Lamb]

Does you denomination extend the invitation to Christian discipleship?

I'm not sure what you mean? What invitation?

 

[Lamb]

Then you are saying that God picks and chooses who He will and the rest are just out of luck? Different bible than the one I read

No one has said that here.

 

[Tigger]

Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew He also predestined, to be conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

I believe the bible teaches election just not double predestination.

 

[Cassia]

FORE_ORDAINED ( to determine beforehand )

(God planned the use of each part of creation and purpose)

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

(God pre-determined a purpose and a plan)

Ephesians 1:5
having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

(God didn't create evil, but evil was worked into His plan)

Ephesians 1:11
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

( God designed the type of being necessary to receive the revelation of His glory. One who would ascribe majesty and power to God)

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

(Hence, the determining of a plan before the plan was put into operation)

 

[Brighten04]

I'm not sure what you mean? What invitation?

Let me ask another way. How does one become a Christian in your denomination?

 

[MoreCoffee]

Scriptures do not put a condition for salvation in our decision.

I am not sure what is meant by "put a condition for salvation in our decision" but I have yet to read an account, in the holy scriptures, of anybody coming to Christ who did not decide to do so.

Salvation is God's work, not a role we play otherwise we'd be part Savior.

The holy scriptures call on the faithful to be obedient and to follow the Lord. The implication is that if they do neither of those things then they will have no reason to expect salvation when the Lord comes to judge the living and the dead.

Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake. Through him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart. You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That word is the good news which was preached to you. 1 Peter 1:13-25​

Those who have chosen to follow Jesus do call God their Father so they are the ones that Peter is speaking about when he says "And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile"

Every Christian in heaven realized that God has forgiven them (because through His word He told them) and faith was given to trust in that (faith given as a gift by God).

The thread's topic does not seem to allow for salvation being both grace given by God and decisions made by the faithful. Yet the holy scriptures time and time again call on the faithful to live lives of holiness and obedience because those who live like that show themselves to be God's children and those who do not show themselves to be enemies of the gospel. The message is to strive to be holy and "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart"

 

[Lamb]

I am not sure what is meant by "put a condition for salvation in our decision" but I have yet to read an account, in the holy scriptures, of anybody coming to Christ who did not decide to do so.



The holy scriptures call on the faithful to be obedient and to follow the Lord. The implication is that if they do neither of those things then they will have no reason to expect salvation when the Lord comes to judge the living and the dead.

Therefore gird up your minds, be sober, set your hope fully upon the grace that is coming to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, but as he who called you is holy, be holy yourselves in all your conduct; since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy." And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake. Through him you have confidence in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart. You have been born anew, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That word is the good news which was preached to you. 1 Peter 1:13-25​

Those who have chosen to follow Jesus do call God their Father so they are the ones that Peter is speaking about when he says "And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile"


The thread's topic does not seem to allow for salvation being both grace given by God and decisions made by the faithful. Yet the holy scriptures time and time again call on the faithful to live lives of holiness and obedience because those who live like that show themselves to be God's children and those who do not show themselves to be enemies of the gospel. The message is to strive to be holy and "Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart"

I think you're confusing acknowledgement in the bible with decision. They aren't the same. And living out our lives as Christian isn't what saves us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I think you're confusing acknowledgement in the bible with decision. They aren't the same. And living out our lives as Christian isn't what saves us.

Following Jesus is a decision. It is not mere acknowledgement.