Are We Saved by Grace or Decision?

[Josiah]

I am still trying to understand how a person becomes a Christian in the Lutheran denomination. What is process? Is there a process?

[MENTION=153]Brighten04[/MENTION]


Grace.


God's favor. God's gift. God's blessing.
Christ is the Savior. Christ saves us.


The exact HOW..... the timeline (if there is one), the details..... they are mystery. But this much Lutherans affirm: We are saved by God's grace (His undeserved, unmerited, unearned and likely unrequested) gift, blessing.... entirely because of Jesus. Soli DEO Gloria (to God ALONE goes all the glory, all the credit, all the thanks.... GOD did it).

Much like how we gain physical life. I was born on January 23, 1988. Let's assume I was conceived on April 23, 1987. God GAVE me life..... I did nothing to bring it about. I didn't earn it, deserve it, achieve it, merit.... heck, I didn't even will or request it. But God gave to me one of the greatest of all His blessings: life. He used some means (I'm sure I don't have to go into that) but regardless, He performed a blessing...... grace........ Well, God not only give physical life but also spiritual life. Grace. God's undeserved blessing and gift. God's act, God's doing, God's heart, God's blessing, God's gift.


Lutherans look to the Cross, not in the mirror.


Lutherans express this (justification, narrow) by three entirely interconnected proclamations of one truth: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. ONE truth, ONE doctrine. God's agape love, His mercy, His heart is the reason, the basis, the cause (not OUR goody-goodiness)...... All through and because of Christ, who IS THE one-and-only and all sufficient SAVIOR (His righteousness, His obedience, His life, His death, His resurrection, His merits, His blood, His Cross, His achievements, the Lamb of God who TAKES AWAY our sins)..... which is apprehended to us by means of faith (trust, reliance) which is the gift of God. Can I explain EXACTLY how and why God does all this? WHY He loves us? WHY and HOW Christ was incarnate for us? Why and how Jesus was both God and man for us? Why and how His life, death and resurrection justifies us? Why and how God gives faith? Nope. Don't need to.

"For God so loved (agape, grace) the world that He gave (free, unearned GIFT) His only begotten Son (Jesus Christ) that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

"God saves us not because of things we do but by virtue of His own mercy... that we might be justified by His grace."

"The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

"For by God's grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."




This may help....

Ask: WHO is The SAVIOR?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation (in the sense of justification, narrow) is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you. It's God's GRACE (getting what we don't deserve/achieve)


IF you answer "me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. YOUR decision. YOUR intelligence and reason. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you. It's my ACHIEVEMENT.



Which is it?



If that actually means you enter heaven is because of YOU (your works, your decision, you reciting the 'sinner's prayer', you being righteous, you being obedient, your this, your that.... you are good enough..... ) then you are the Savior of you. Now maybe Jesus was a good model or example or teacher..... maybe Jesus (and His mother) HELP you..... maybe Jesus is the Doorman who opens the door to those good enough to enter, those deserving to enter.... but the reason you enter heaven is because of YOU! Pat yourself on the back...... Thank yourself..... boast loudly.... you are the Savior of you! You've done God a favor.

If that actually means you enter heaven because of JESUS (His works, His love, His blessing, His gift, His grace, His mercy), because HE was righteous/holy/perfect, because HE died on the Cross for you, because HE is risen from the dead, because HE is good enough.... then Jesus is the Savior. Now maybe you should respond with love and works, maybe you should have humility and repentance, maybe you should grow to be more Christ-like in heart and life, but the reason you enter Heaven is because of Jesus, because Jesus saves, because Jesus is the Savior. God has blessed you.


Which is it?



SOME want to side with modern Pharisical Judaism or Islam or Hinduism and say "God HELPS those who help themselves, but you gotta do x,y,z." They want to say "Jesus is the Savior.... kinda, sorta.... BUT YOU gotta........" in order to enter heaven, in order to have forgiveness, in order to have mercy. But all that is just a clever way of saying Jesus does NOT save.... Jesus is NOT the Savior.... the reason I'm heaven bound is because of ME, glory be to ME, thanks be to ME, pulling out a plum and shouting "What a good boy am I!" It's insisting that we are NOT saved/justified by the grace of God (getting what we don't deserve), we are saved/justified because I did all I had to do, I jumped through all the required hoops, I jumped high enough, I am good enough, I am smart enough...... It's kind of an insult to the Cross, an insult to Christ.... but maybe good for the ego of self (all that padding of self on the back) .... until one considers the "ENOUGH." Am I good ENOUGH? Have I decided ENOUGH? Have I jumped through all the required hoops? After all, it's easy to trust Christ but if we are honest .... if we are real..... if we stop fooling ourselves... self actually makes a very unreliable Savior.

SOME want to say, "We are saved by grace but only if you do _________" but then it's not grace. St Paul penned, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law (what we do), then Christ died for no purpose."



Soli Deo Gloria!



- Josiah




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[MoreCoffee]

Do you think you can play any part in giving yourself life or even new life? Resurrection? The answer is No. It's God's work.

A person can eat and drink and breathe and avoid suicide, all these things sustain life. People can make new life by the normal means. As the holy scriptures say "Adam knew Eve and she conceived ..."

 

[Josiah]

A person can eat and drink and breathe and avoid suicide, all these things sustain life.

Again, friend, this thread is not about sustaining. Anything.

People can make new life by the normal means. As the holy scriptures say "Adam knew Eve and she conceived ..."

I disagree with you. I believe that GOD knit us together in our mother's womb (to quote the Bible), I believe that GOD GIVES life, not that we create it in ourselves within 3 microseconds of the sperm and egg meeting (or quicker). God GIVES.... BLESSES..... life. Certainly physical life but (to the point of this thread) also spiritual life.

My sister has a Ph.D. in biology (more educated in that than I am, and perhaps you). When each of her two daughters were born to her and her husband, they THANKED GOD alone for the miracle, the blessing, the gift of life. Yes.... obviously.... GOD used some means (not that He has too, you've heard about Mary) but that in no way makes it less ALL His doing..... His heart..... His gift..... His blessing......

 

[user1234]

SOME want to say, "We are saved by grace but only if you do ________" Hmm, let's see ... Water-baptism? Eating wafers? Drinking juice? but then it's not grace. St Paul penned, "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law (what we do), then Christ died for no purpose."

Good. So then we finally agree, we don't have to do any of those things, right?
Things like the whole is is is obsession become a moot point, because we're saved by grace, not by eating any bread, wine or wafers, even under the disappearance of Jesus, or putting a baby through the (sometimes torturous) ritual of water-baptism, since God gives the baby faith to say goo-goo-amen-goo, and get saved. Right?

 

[MoreCoffee]

...
I disagree with you. I believe that GOD knit us together in our mother's womb (to quote the Bible), I believe that GOD GIVES life...

God gives life and everything to his creatures yet Adam knew Eve and she conceived. There is no problem when this is read as both God and people working together to bring new human life into the world.

 

[Rens]

You are saved by grace through faith. That faith didn't come from you. It wasn't your choice to receive it. It opened your eyes to the Savior.

Yes faith is not a choice, but what you do with it. If you don't believe God exists, that's not a choice, then you hear the Word, faith comes, a gift from Him, then you can either accept or reject that. There is action on our side required, but He works it in us.
Why would He give warnings if we didn't have to do anything or why say all people must repent?

 

[Lamb]

God gives life and everything to his creatures yet Adam knew Eve and she conceived. There is no problem when this is read as both God and people working together to bring new human life into the world.

Sexual desire is a natural part of human function that was built by God. Again. God.

Adam & Eve cannot conceive if God doesn't bless them.

 

[Lamb]

Yes faith is not a choice, but what you do with it. If you don't believe God exists, that's not a choice, then you hear the Word, faith comes, a gift from Him, then you can either accept or reject that. There is action on our side required, but He works it in us.
Why would He give warnings if we didn't have to do anything or why say all people must repent?

If you have faith...you're saved. We're saved by grace through faith. I bolded your portion in red that even says that. You even wrote first that a person has faith from the word. Okay, so that's that. Once a person has faith then he has salvation. Anything after (that man does) does not add more to what the Holy Spirit first gave.

Warnings...He gives because God gives Law and Gospel. He gives warnings that we might not be with Him. He gives the Gospel to show that HE is saving us.

 

[Rens]

If you have faith...you're saved. We're saved by grace through faith. I bolded your portion in red that even says that. You even wrote first that a person has faith from the word. Okay, so that's that. Once a person has faith then he has salvation. Anything after (that man does) does not add more to what the Holy Spirit first gave.

Warnings...He gives because God gives Law and Gospel. He gives warnings that we might not be with Him. He gives the Gospel to show that HE is saving us.

You're not saved if you believe He exists. I thought so, until they explained I had to ask Him to forgive my sins and accept Him.

 

[Rens]

Sexual desire is a natural part of human function that was built by God. Again. God.

Adam & Eve cannot conceive if God doesn't bless them.

They had to do something though or there were not kids. Adam could also have left her after she let him eat from that tree. God works through people, they need to be willing and cooperate.

 

[Lamb]

You're not saved if you believe He exists. I thought so, until they explained I had to ask Him to forgive my sins and accept Him.

You cannot give yourself faith. You cannot convert yourself. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in man that can do those things. Conversion is God's work 100% within us. We receive it because He puts it into us.

 

[psalms 91]

You cannot give yourself faith. You cannot convert yourself. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing in man that can do those things. Conversion is God's work 100% within us. We receive it because He puts it into us.

And we have the free will to accept or reject it otherwise it is not a choice but God picking and choosing, so we either recognize we are sinners and confess Christ as our saviour and let Him into our heart or we choose to reject this free gift of God

 

[TurtleHare]

All y'all decisioners haven't posted satisfying scripture to proof yourselves but here is what our bible says on how you're saved by the grace of God

Unbelivers consider the Gospel foolish and can’t understand
1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:23-25 …but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Our bodies fight against God
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”
Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

Natural man (unconverted) is an enemy of God
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 3:10-12 “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; here is no one who does good, not even one.
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

God grants repentance to us to give life
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
God opens the heart
Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

God gives understanding
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God makes us alive
Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Conversion is God's Work
Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Philippians 2:13 …for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

 

[Lamb]

And we have the free will to accept or reject it otherwise it is not a choice but God picking and choosing, so we either recognize we are sinners and confess Christ as our saviour and let Him into our heart or we choose to reject this free gift of God

If you've been given faith from the Holy Spirit then what is there to accept what you already have in place? It's given to you and you have it. You can't believe unless it's been given to you!

God picking and choosing? Doesn't God want everyone to come to faith and He sends out men to preach the Good News to all the ends of the earth?

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you want "decision texts" as proofs then look no further. Here is one or two.

Luke 9:23-27 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

 

[Lamb]

If you want "decision texts" as proofs then look no further. Here is one or two.

Luke 9:23-27 And he said to all, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. 24 For whoever would save his life will lose it; and whoever loses his life for my sake, he will save it. 25 For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself? 26 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words, of him will the Son of man be ashamed when he comes in his glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels. 27 But I tell you truly, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

Revelation 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let him who hears say, "Come." And let him who is thirsty come, let him who desires take the water of life without price.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh."

Are you sure those prove your claim, MC? They don't seem to prove decision theology. The Luke verse is about the life of the Christian...those already converted.

The Revelation verse when taken in context shows that the unbelievers are outside the church in verse 15 and in 16 it is saying it gives testimony for the Churches.

John 6...well, you see that the unbelievers walked away because it was foolishness. The believers who had faith remained with Jesus.

 

[psalms 91]

If you've been given faith from the Holy Spirit then what is there to accept what you already have in place? It's given to you and you have it. You can't believe unless it's been given to you!

God picking and choosing? Doesn't God want everyone to come to faith and He sends out men to preach the Good News to all the ends of the earth?

Then you believe that all are saved and all go to heaven? Because that is what this seems to imply

 

[Lamb]

Then you believe that all are saved and all go to heaven? Because that is what this seems to imply

NO. More than once I have said that men can reject. Then they damn themselves.

 

[Josiah]

Good. So then we finally agree, we don't have to do any of those things, right?
Things like the whole is is is obsession become a moot point, because we're saved by grace, not by eating any bread, wine or wafers, even under the disappearance of Jesus, or putting a baby through the (sometimes torturous) ritual of water-baptism, since God gives the baby faith to say goo-goo-amen-goo, and get saved. Right?

IMO, you are ENTIRELY CONFUSING two very different things....
The issue here is whether God gives spiritual life or we ourselves create and/or earn it (by our mental decisions, choices).
The issue is NOT whether God usually does or does not use means to give that faith.


Yes, of course, if you believe that the Savior is each self for each self (self must look in the mirror to see the Savior), each must jump through certain hoops in order to accomplish salvation - then I see your point: it would be unlikely that a baby could accomplish such a high thing. Your point about babies not being very articulate in the English language and not having as high of an IQ as most adults and not yet being able to walk - all that might be valid points. But friend, that's EXACTLY where we disagree (quite fundamentally): I believe that Jesus is the Savior (not any other; there is NO OTHER name by which we may be saved - certainly not our own), that Jesus does the saving, so that we are saved by grace. I reject (quite passionately) that we save ourselves (rendering Jesus irrelevant) by our performing x, y, z. So, to me, your point that babies perhaps can't do "x, y, z" is irrelevant to me: the baby isn't the Savior of self, Jesus is the Savior. The issue thus is what Jesus can do, not what a 42 year old or a 2 minute old person can or can't do. You need to get your focus off you and on the Lord.... stop being obsessed with what you see in the Mirror and instead lift high the Cross.

decision verses

Once again, yet again, you not only are wrong but once again teaching very UNCATHOLIC ideas, contradicting your own denomination (and all my Catholic teachers). The RC Denomination not only officially denounces and condemns decision theology but actually officially teaches predestination. You are contradicting your own denomination and revealing just how much many Catholics have exchanged Catholicism for Arminianistic "Evangelicalism". See http://catholicexchange.com/church-say-predestination etc, etc., etc., etc. As your priest would tell you, the RC Denomination actually agrees with Luther on single predestination and that faith is GIVEN entirely by God, it's disagreement was with Calvin and with Arminius (whom you are so passionately parroting) but yeah, a lot of "Catholics" have abandoned Catholicism in favor of Arminianistic "Evangelicalism" at the very points that Orange and Trent and other Councils declared to be heresies. So ironic to read/hear "Catholics" like you.

MoreCoffee, learn what your own denomination officially teaches (in Ecumenical Councils, no less) before you denounce Catholicism and support Arminius (whom your denomination declared a heretic on this point).



Thank you.



- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

All y'all decisioners haven't posted satisfying scripture to proof yourselves but here is what our bible says on how you're saved by the grace of God

Unbelivers consider the Gospel foolish and can’t understand
1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 1:23-25 …but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

Our bodies fight against God
Galatians 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!”
Ephesians 4:18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

Natural man (unconverted) is an enemy of God
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Romans 3:10-12 “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; here is no one who does good, not even one.
John 1:5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

God grants repentance to us to give life
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”
God opens the heart
Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.
Matthew 11:27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

God gives understanding
1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

God makes us alive
Ephesians 2:4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
Colossians 2:13-14 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

Conversion is God's Work
Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Philippians 2:13 …for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose


.

Thank you!



- Josiah