Sinning no more

[Pedrito]

In Post #20 on Page 2, Lämmchen offered:

Originally Posted by Pedrito

One question remains: what did Jesus write on the ground?

Scripture is silent so it must not be important.

So, if Scripture is silent about something, it is not important. Therefore, if Scripture is silent about something, that something (anything) cannot be taken on as doctrine.

Also and especially, if Scripture clearly weighs in, in support of one particular God-revealed truth, how much more should any doctrine to the contrary (say, based on "tradition") be rejected.


Pedrito thanks Lämmchen for making that clear to all of us.

 

[Lamb]

In Post #20 on Page 2, Lämmchen offered:


So, if Scripture is silent about something, it is not important. Therefore, if Scripture is silent about something, that something (anything) cannot be taken on as doctrine.

Also and especially, if Scripture clearly weighs in, in support of one particular God-revealed truth, how much more should any doctrine to the contrary (say, based on "tradition") be rejected.


Pedrito thanks Lämmchen for making that clear to all of us.

Do you often form doctrine around things that scripture is silent about?

 

[tango]

But that's if we have sinned and say we haven't. It is possible, but not even Paul had achieved it. With the rapture I think.

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It doesn't provide any exclusion for people who genuinely have no sin. Just to make it interesting, two chapters later we find this:

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

On the face of it this looks like it's saying that if we say we have no sin we are liars, but if we abide in Him we do not sin. This looks like an interesting contradiction, no? Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

 

[MoreCoffee]

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

It doesn't provide any exclusion for people who genuinely have no sin. Just to make it interesting, two chapters later we find this:

1Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.

On the face of it this looks like it's saying that if we say we have no sin we are liars, but if we abide in Him we do not sin. This looks like an interesting contradiction, no? Anyone got any thoughts on this one?

Looks like it may be like the two proverbs that say

• Do not respond to the foolish according to his folly, lest you become like him.
• Respond to the foolish according to his folly, lest he imagine himself to be wise.

Maybe the words have more than one meaning and the meaning is determined by the immediate context. "respond to a fool" appears to view the fool as uninformed but trainable while "don't respond to a fool" appears to view the fool as obstinately determined to remain a fool.

In a similar way the context of saint John's comments might be the clue as to what he was thinking when he wrote those things.

• Don't pretend to sinless perfection because doing so makes God a liar when he says that everybody has sinned (and that is a blasphemy that even a fool ought to avoid).
• Christians don't sin while they are abiding in Christ (how could they? Christ is sinless - he is God and God cannot sin - so if you are abiding in Christ you can't be sinning because that would make Christ a sinner and hence make God a liar).

That's one possible way to read what saint John intends by what he wrote.

 

[TurtleHare]

Law and Gospel....



The LAW:

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the
OT
- and still more in the
NT
.




What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."




The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


The LAW has two functions:

Civil - Our relationships in this fallen world. This was not given until around 1400 BC when the first Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, with a purpose of GUIDING peoples' relationships. This is very much like our own national laws - they govern relationships. Civil law does not get us into heaven, it helps us get along with others, it helps our society work better.... if everyone kept the law, this would be a nicer place in which to live and die (and eventually go to hell). This applies just as much to non-Christians as to Christians - it applies to all.

The Law cannot save - and in this first use, it's not remotely its intention. Now.... true..... IF we kept all the law, we'd go to heaven (because we would not NEED God or Christ or mercy or forgiveness or salvation or justification or the Cross or the Blood - we'd not need the Gospel - because we'd essentially be God: divinely perfect, divinely holy, divinely loving..... totally, absolutely..... 100%....... 24/7...... but then in that case, we'd not need the civil law because we'd be perfect - in nature, in being, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed.

We can NEVER achieve the Law (and we don't). Like Paul, we must confess that we are "CHIEF OF SINNERS" and that we are not - not - perfect as God demands.... but we CAN press on toward that. Why? Because Jesus was a joke and Christianity is wrong - we gotta save ourselves? WE save SELF via the Law - by being absolutely 100% perfect just as God is perfect? Nope. We press on toward that because our life and our world would be a whole lot better off. And because it pleases God whom we love.

BOTH of these functions continue after justification..... we are STILL called to be absolutely, divinely PERFECT, we are still called to live civilly in society; indeed Christians have unique commands: to love EXACTLY as Christ did, to LIVE exactly as Christ did, to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc. The Law doesn't disappear or get watered down to nothing (as some Christians insist) when we are justified... but it also has nothing to do with our justification just because we are justified.


Theological - Our relationship to God. This is to drive us to our knees, to drive us to despair, to accuse us, to drive us to God's MERCY, God's HEART, God's FORGIVENESS..... to reveal the need for a Savior, a Cross. We CANNOT and ARE NOT what God intends and commands. That NO ONE is righteous..... NO ONE is good..... every other religion on the planet is fundamentally wrong because we cannot clean up our act and become what God mandates: absolutely perfect, absolutely holy, absolutely loving.... if anyone CLAIMS to be without sin (to always hit the mark), well.... to be blunt..... they LIE and DECEIVE themselves (but no one else - least of all God!). We are SINNERS! We MISS THE MARK! We are FALLEN! We need SALVATION, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION... IF we look to the LAW as the tool of salvation, ALL that happens is that we get slapped down - completely, totally, every time. (Note: THIS is why people want to water down the law SO MUCH as to make it unrecognizable, insulting God and the Law - all to make it so that we can boast "but I keep the Law - I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - I got ME!!!" All as an enemy of Christ, a destroyer of the Gospel, all in an attempt to substitute the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism in place of Christianity - to promote THEIR soteriology which is "Self saves self although because of the TIME and HELP which God provides")

The theological use is to ask ourselves, "Am I all that God commands?" The only reasonable answer is: "NO!" And thus to flee to the mercy seat of God, the heart of God..... He who says "Yes" the Bible specifically says is a "fool" and is a "liar"





The GOSPEL


What is the Gospel?

It is the heart of God, the mercy of God, what God has done FOR us, the gifts from God, the promises of God - all in view of CHRIST alone: the Cross, the Blood, the Empty Tomb.


Galatians 2:21, "If justification were through the Law then Christ died for no purpose."

Philippians 3:9, "Not because of our works, lest anyone can boast."

Romans 3:20, "No human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the Law."

First John 4:10, "Not that we love God but rather that He loves us."

First John 4:8, "God is love."

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."



This Gospel also applies to our lives as Christians....

Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

First John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, God is faithful to His promise and will forgive our sins."

.... and so VERY much more.... all entirely because of the heart of God, the unconditional love of God, the mercy of God.... in view of the Lamb, the Blood, the Cross, the Christ, the Savior.


The Law does not negate or cancel or diminish the Gospel.... nor does the Gospel negate, cancel or diminish the Law... both are real, both are true, both stand in ALL their force and truth... and they can only accomplish their task if we allow them to stand FULLY - not watering them down, not confusing them, not entangling them, not misapplying them. A Christian (one who is justified, narrow - by Christ ALONE, by the SAVIOR, via the Cross, because of the Gospel!) is still called to absolute, total, divine perfection, holiness, obedience, love... still called to always, perfectly HIT THE MARK, right on, every time, 24/7, as much as God does, in our nature, our being, our attitude, our thoughts, our words, our deeds: both for civil reasons AND so that we realize we fail and need Gods' mercy. We strive forward because we love God and because this is the will of God..... but we never fully attain it, we miss the mark, we fall short more often and more greatly than we realize. And so, thanks be to God, the Gospel remains (FULLY, completely, in all its' power and force and beauty): God is merciful, God forgives, because of the Lamb, because of the Cross, because of the Blood, because of His unconditional love, because of His Son, because there is the SAVIOR - Jesus Christ.


Pax Christi


- Josiah

Well now I was gonna post in this thread and then came upon Josiah's post and thought no way could my piddly words compare so kudos on a job well done and thanks for all that scripture in there! After all the other threads we've had on this last time I was here I would have thought these type of sinnless kind would have been cleared up, not that I'm blaming Romanos or anything since it's his forum and he is the boss man running things. But we gotta remember we can't live up to the law of having to be sinless and even when Jesus tells us to be sinless or to not sin any more it's to force us to look at ourselves within and see how much more we need him as our Savior.

 

[Josiah]

we gotta remember we can't live up to the law of having to be sinless and even when Jesus tells us to be sinless or to not sin any more it's to force us to look at ourselves within and see how much more we need him as our Savior.

EXACTLY!!!! There are a plethora of extremely dangerous ways to destroy Christianity and ultimately make Christ and the Cross small and self ever-so-big. The confusion of Law and Gospel is often a tool in these ploys.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You make so many claims about a law-gospel distinction that one wonders if that distinction is in the holy scriptures.

 

[Josiah]

You make so many claims about a law-gospel distinction that one wonders if that distinction is in the holy scriptures.

Already shown.


What is dangerous is the persistent, all-consuming attempt to destroy Christianity, to make Christ as small and irrelevant as possible while making self as big and important as possible, to make the REAL savior the one we see in the mirror and relegating Christ to little more than a good teacher, a nice example, a possibility-maker ("He opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it") or one of a plethora of helpers. To do this: one MUST water down Law and Gospel, one must twist and confuse Law and Gospel, one must blend and entangle and confuse Law and Gospel, Christ and Self. THAT'S what is unbiblical, unchristian, dangerous, the "stuff" of Satan.



Answer this: WHO is the Savior*?

IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not to any degree, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly, completely wrapped up in Jesus since Jesus is the Savior. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter, but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "Me" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU because you are the Savior. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.

There is just two places to look: The Cross or the mirror.

Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place and the need to confuse, mix, blend, entangle, water-down Law and Gospel disappears - both can stand fully as God in Scripture teaches them. Of course, the individual RC Denomination condemned and anathmatized that at the Council of Trent a bit after Luther's death "locking" that denomination into the confused, entangled, mixed-up, water-down mess we so often witness from Catholics on this - anything to get the focus off the Cross and onto self, anything to belittle and entangle Law and Gospel to make Christ small and self huge.


* "Savior" and "salvation" in the sense of narrow justification.


Blessings in this Christmas Season



- Josiah


.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Can't say I see a "law-gospel" dichotomy in the holy scriptures. I see the law and the gospel as existing together, one as a covenant that came to an end yet whose moral teaching is lasting and the other as eternal and whose gifts are eternal.

 

[Rens]

Wow do you people still sin? How bad! I never sin.

 

[psalms 91]

lolThe word says different

 

[TurtleHare]

Can't say I see a "law-gospel" dichotomy in the holy scriptures. I see the law and the gospel as existing together, one as a covenant that came to an end yet whose moral teaching is lasting and the other as eternal and whose gifts are eternal.

You can't see that they are different at all, I mean, like in any way or do you think they're both the same thing? You got me thinking about a new thread to start!!! ;P

 

[Lamb]

Can't say I see a "law-gospel" dichotomy in the holy scriptures. I see the law and the gospel as existing together, one as a covenant that came to an end yet whose moral teaching is lasting and the other as eternal and whose gifts are eternal.

When we say distinction we aren't saying God isn't using only one. He uses both Law and Gospel but each have their purpose and scripture is clear on this.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You can't see that they are different at all, I mean, like in any way or do you think they're both the same thing? You got me thinking about a new thread to start!!! ;P

I'd be willing to bet you need to read what I wrote again

 

[MoreCoffee]

When we say distinction we aren't saying God isn't using only one. He uses both Law and Gospel but each have their purpose and scripture is clear on this.

Is it merely a distinction that you make? It seems far more than mere distinction.

The Lord Jesus Christ says that The law and the prophets were until John. Since then, the kingdom of God is being evangelized, and everyone acts with violence toward it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one dot of the law to fall away. (Luke 16:16-17) That being so we ought not to think of the law as a system competing with the gospel in the world today. And while it is true that some seek to place themselves under the law and thus seek to be its servants they cannot do it because the law was until John (the Baptist) and now it is only the Kingdom with which a man or a woman must be reconciled. The gospel is the gospel of the kingdom in which the law has no continuing place so even though the lessons of the law are applicable the letter is no longer applicable - there being no priests and temple in which to perform its rituals of cleansing nor any nation or earthly king to administer its civil laws. Yet not one dot of the law has fallen away, all that it demands remains intact and any who seek to establish their own worthiness to enter God's presence must be completely clean according to the law but all who rely on Christ for their advocate and the Holy Spirit as their help will find a different way into the presence of God and it is a way in which their own worthiness is not their own alone but the worthiness of Christ in them which permeates every fibre of their being. Such ones are washed in the blood of the Lamb [of God] and need fear no condemnation from vengeful accusers pointing to their failings with regard to the law.

 

[Lamb]

Compete? Those are your words. God uses Law and Gospel in very distinct ways. The Law does not show us the Savior but does show us our sin and need for a Savior. The Gospel does not condemn us but gives us the Savior and forgiveness needed. God uses both Law and Gospel but they are distinct.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Compete? Those are your words. God uses Law and Gospel in very distinct ways. The Law does not show us the Savior but does show us our sin and need for a Savior. The Gospel does not condemn us but gives us the Savior and forgiveness needed. God uses both Law and Gospel but they are distinct.

Do you teach that the Law and the Prophets fail to show the saviour who was to come? What do you mean by "show the saviour"?

 

[Sword7]

When the topic of sin is brought up by some, the quote from Christ where He says Sin no more is usually something that is a stumbling block. How do you feel that we can work on this?

LOVE . " a new commandment i give unto you that you LOVE ......................" Godly love does only that which is good presently and eternally beneficial to all others of mankind creation and God . in LOVE one cannot "miss the mark " .

 

[LordyLordy]

You don't have to work on it. It's something that happens when you're reborn into the spiritual kingdom and understand this;

Genesis 1
26: Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

Man was created in the image of God which is the spiritual kingdom and the flesh of man formed from earth dust is the deceiver that perishes.

 

[Sword7]

When Jesus spoke did he give her the power to not sin anymore?

Yes Or that is to say ..he "empowered"