Universal Atonement - Part 2

[Hammster]

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - John 10:11

We have to ask, is everyone His sheep?

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. - John 10:14-15

In the same intimate way He and His Father have a relationship, so does the Shepherd with His sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30

Here it's obvious that not all are His sheep. And since not all are His sheep then He did not die for all.


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[Lamb]

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - John 10:11

We have to ask, is everyone His sheep?

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. - John 10:14-15

In the same intimate way He and His Father have a relationship, so does the Shepherd with His sheep.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
30 I and the Father are one." - John 10:27-30

Here it's obvious that not all are His sheep. And since not all are His sheep then He did not die for all.


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Those verses are talking about who benefits from the forgiveness won at the cross. He died for all, but not all benefit because they reject.

 

[Lamb]

I did not realize that Lutherans held to the position that salvation could be forfeited.


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God does not throw us aside but we can reject Him and damn ourselves as scriptures warn us.

 

[Hammster]

Those verses are talking about who benefits from the forgiveness won at the cross. He died for all, but not all benefit because they reject.

That is not at all what they are talking about. They are very specific. You cannot just dismiss them with a wave of the hand.


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[psalms 91]

You are right Lamm, universal forgiveness of sin and all going to heaven is a nice idea but one that is false

 

[Hammster]

You are right Lamm, universal forgiveness of sin and all going to heaven is a nice idea but one that is false

Which is why universal atonement is a nice idea, but false.


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[Lamb]

You are right Lamm, universal forgiveness of sin and all going to heaven is a nice idea but one that is false

Universal atonement is different than Universalism.

 

[Lamb]

That is not at all what they are talking about. They are very specific. You cannot just dismiss them with a wave of the hand.


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I am not dismissing the verses. I'm explaining them in that they say exactly what the say, but they are not backing up what YOU say

 

[Hammster]

I am not dismissing the verses. I'm explaining them in that they say exactly what the say, but they are not backing up what YOU say

7 So Jesus again said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.
9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.
10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. - John 10:7-11

Here Jesus starts to differentiate the sheep from others.

Does Je specifically say that He lays down His life for the sheep in contrast to what others do?


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[Lamb]

I refer you back to the verse I mentioned earlier proving he paid the price for even those who reject him. 2 Peter 2:1

You see, yes, He laid down his life for His Sheep. But he also died for all as other verses show.

 

[Hammster]

I refer you back to the verse I mentioned earlier proving he paid the price for even those who reject him. 2 Peter 2:1

You see, yes, He laid down his life for His Sheep. But he also died for all as other verses show.

It doesn't say that He lays down His life for the sheep and others. You have to read that into the verse.


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[Hammster]

http://vintage.aomin.org/2PE21.html

Great article explaining the 2 Peter passage.


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[MoreCoffee]

As a Lutheran I believe in Universal atonement (yet not universalism). Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. How do those who believe in limited atonement get around that? Is it finished as Jesus said or is it not?

As a Catholic I believe that God genuinely invites all who hear the gospel to come and share in the Lamb's supper.

 

[Hammster]

As a Catholic I believe that God genuinely invites all who hear the gospel to come and share in the Lamb's supper.

That's not really the subject at hand.


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[MoreCoffee]

That's not really the subject at hand.


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The atonement being universal and the invitation being genuine and universal is the topic isn't it?

 

[Hammster]

The atonement being universal and the invitation being genuine and universal is the topic isn't it?

As a Lutheran I believe in Universal atonement (yet not universalism). Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. How do those who believe in limited atonement get around that? Is it finished as Jesus said or is it not?

^^^This.



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[MoreCoffee]

^^^This.



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Yes, the invitation to faith is universal and genuine and the atonement is universal.

 

[visionary]

I believe in the atonement that will come for all one time at the appointed time of the great Atonement called Yom Kippur. Everything before it is recorded in the books of life before the day of Judgment.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes!