Universal Atonement - Part 2

[BruceLeiter]

All has two clear definitions based on context. In most cases, it's assumed that it means everyone without distinction. But context shows this to not be the case.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

You're right, Hammster!

 

[BruceLeiter]

Where does faith come from?

Thank you kindly.

Faith his God's gift of his grace.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Frankj]

If it is for the elect only, then who are the elect?

When Jesus prayed 'Our father who art in heaven .... ' who was included in the 'Our' he was speaking of?

Are you among the elect, and how do you know you are if you are?

I think some things are best left to faith alone, reason will never answer them.

(FWIW, I was raised Lutheran and raised my offspring the same, but have been through much and so many different things in my life that I now consider myself non denominational)

 

[BruceLeiter]

If it is for the elect only, then who are the elect?

When Jesus prayed 'Our father who art in heaven .... ' who was included in the 'Our' he was speaking of?

Are you among the elect, and how do you know you are if you are?

I think some things are best left to faith alone, reason will never answer them.

(FWIW, I was raised Lutheran and raised my offspring the same, but have been through much and so many different things in my life that I now consider myself non denominational)

The elect are the believers whom God chose. I don't know for sure who they are, because I can't see their hearts. Only God knows for sure.

The "our" in the disciples, who asked him to teach them to pray. Of course, we know who would betray him. Not everyone who prays that prayer is a true believer, sadly.

I have a lot of assurance that I am because of God's work in my life, sustaining me through many losses and giving me many of Jesus' wins.

I agree with your fourth statement, because there a lot of mysteries that God has chosen not to reveal to us. He's God; we're not.

 

[Lamb]

If it is for the elect only, then who are the elect?

When Jesus prayed 'Our father who art in heaven .... ' who was included in the 'Our' he was speaking of?

Are you among the elect, and how do you know you are if you are?

I think some things are best left to faith alone, reason will never answer them.

(FWIW, I was raised Lutheran and raised my offspring the same, but have been through much and so many different things in my life that I now consider myself non denominational)

The elect are those who believe in Jesus as Savior, especially at their deaths or when Christ returns for Judgment Day. If we believe, we are the elect.

 

[Frankj]

The elect are those who believe in Jesus as Savior, especially at their deaths or when Christ returns for Judgment Day. If we believe, we are the elect.

When I consider this I have to ask myself "Where do I find that idea in scripture?".

When I look at this from either a Calvinist or Arminian perspective I find myself thinking that the elect are only those chosen by God for a purpose and the only ones that receive salvation and that sort of makes the entire idea of evangelism rather empty: If you weren't actually chosen by God, no matter what you may choose or not choose, you are left out. If you were chosen, then you are included no matter the reason for it.

The Arminian perspective is more to my liking, but I constantly have to remind myself that this, as well as the Calvinist, view is the doctrine of men and I look to see it directly see it represented in scripture in a manner that doesn't require me to interpret it (which leads me to becoming righteous only in my own mind).

So I still ponder such things, maybe to no avail but it seems to be my nature to do so.

 

[BruceLeiter]

When I consider this I have to ask myself "Where do I find that idea in scripture?".

When I look at this from either a Calvinist or Arminian perspective I find myself thinking that the elect are only those chosen by God for a purpose and the only ones that receive salvation and that sort of makes the entire idea of evangelism rather empty: If you weren't actually chosen by God, no matter what you may choose or not choose, you are left out. If you were chosen, then you are included no matter the reason for it.

The Arminian perspective is more to my liking, but I constantly have to remind myself that this, as well as the Calvinist, view is the doctrine of men and I look to see it directly see it represented in scripture in a manner that doesn't require me to interpret it (which leads me to becoming righteous only in my own mind).

So I still ponder such things, maybe to no avail but it seems to be my nature to do so.

In evangelism, we Calvinists don't tell anyone whether or not they're the elect, because we can't read God's mind and we don't know who the elect are. We can have assurance for ourselves from the evidence of his grace working in our lives, but never definite knowledge about anyone, even professing Christians, who may be hypocrites.

In evangelism, we scatter the seeds of the Good News, primarily through witnessing about the ways God has worked in our lives and leave the rest of the work to God to save his elect, whom God clearly chose before creation (Ephesians 1:1-14).

 

[Lamb]

In evangelism, we Calvinists don't tell anyone whether or not they're the elect, because we can't read God's mind and we don't know who the elect are. We can have assurance for ourselves from the evidence of his grace working in our lives, but never definite knowledge about anyone, even professing Christians, who may be hypocrites.

In evangelism, we scatter the seeds of the Good News, primarily through witnessing about the ways God has worked in our lives and leave the rest of the work to God to save his elect, whom God clearly chose before creation (Ephesians 1:1-14).

The problem for Calvinists is also that they can't tell people that Jesus died for them. So you aren't really sharing the good news.

 

[BruceLeiter]

The problem for Calvinists is also that they can't tell people that Jesus died for them. So you aren't really sharing the good news.

We Calvinists can say that Jesus died for all humans, as John 3:16 says; invite them to believe in him; and then leave it to God to save them or not, since they may or may not be part of the elect.

 

[Lamb]

We Calvinists can say that Jesus died for all humans, as John 3:16 says; invite them to believe in him; and then leave it to God to save them or not, since they may or may not be part of the elect.

You're the rare Calvinist then because most I know don't say that.

 

[BruceLeiter]

You're the rare Calvinist then because most I know don't say that.

The reason I don't call people the elect is that I don't know for sure, since I can't know their hearts. Only God knows for sure. I have a lot of assurance for myself, but there are a lot of hypocrites out there who appear to be saved but are not. I was one of them as a Pharisee following all the rules without any real faith until God saved me at the age of 16, 66 years ago.

 

[brightfame52]

Universal Atonement

As a Lutheran I believe in Universal atonement (yet not universalism). Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. How do those who believe in limited atonement get around that? Is it finished as Jesus said or is it not?

Jn 1:29 that scripture confirms limited atonement in that its of a world that has its sin taken away, so its a saved world, and a saved world is limited to the saved. Rev 21:23-24

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

 

[Lamb]

Jn 1:29 that scripture confirms limited atonement in that its of a world that has its sin taken away, so its a saved world, and a saved world is limited to the saved. Rev 21:23-24

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

You're trying to combine two verses to make it say what you want. The full verse of John 1:29-34 is and there is NO limited atonement even implied there.

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”[f]

 

[brightfame52]

You're trying to combine two verses to make it say what you want. The full verse of John 1:29-34 is and there is NO limited atonement even implied there.

29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is the one I meant when I said, ‘A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ 31 I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel.”

32 Then John gave this testimony: “I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33 And I myself did not know him, but the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is the one who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I have seen and I testify that this is God’s Chosen One.”[f]

Lol, its simple, the world of Jn 1:29 doesnt have any sin charged to it, its a saved world. See death is the wages of sin Rom 6:23 but now if sin has been taken away,so has death for sin, thats salvation from death and sin.

 

[brightfame52]

The world of Jn 1:29 has complete forgiveness of sin, and the cancellation of any due punishment for sin.

The world here also doesnt mean all individuals of mankind, for we know many have died with their sins charged to them, the second death awaits them, but world means that this great lamb sacrifice just didn't take away the sin of men of one nation, like the jews may have believed, but also of men from the gentile nations also.

 

[Lamb]

The world of Jn 1:29 has complete forgiveness of sin, and the cancellation of any due punishment for sin.

The world here also doesnt mean all individuals of mankind, for we know many have died with their sins charged to them, the second death awaits them, but world means that this great lamb sacrifice just didn't take away the sin of men of one nation, like the jews may have believed, but also of men from the gentile nations also.

A king can declare prisoners free of guilt, but those prisoners can also say, No, we don't believe you...then they don't actually gain their freedom because they refuse it.

 

[brightfame52]

A king can declare prisoners free of guilt, but those prisoners can also say, No, we don't believe you...then they don't actually gain their freedom because they refuse it.

Thats false it has nothing to do with the people wants,its what Gods Justice dictates, the transaction was between the Lamb of God and God the Just Judge. So only thing left is to tell everyone of that world the good news of their forgiveness of sins, hence Acts 13:38

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Its True whether the forgiven prisoner believes it or not,but thanks to God, the Spirit of God prepares the forgiven sinner to receive that good news.

 

[Lamb]

Thats false it has nothing to do with the people wants,its what Gods Justice dictates, the transaction was between the Lamb of God and God the Just Judge. So only thing left is to tell everyone of that world the good news of their forgiveness of sins, hence Acts 13:38

Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:

Its True whether the forgiven prisoner believes it or not,but thanks to God, the Spirit of God prepares the forgiven sinner to receive that good news.

The Bible tells us man can throw away faith and damn himself. That's the same as being declared not guilty and saying No Thanks. It's biblical.

 

[brightfame52]

The Bible tells us man can throw away faith and damn himself. That's the same as being declared not guilty and saying No Thanks. It's biblical.

Oh no, the people of Jn 1:29 are saved, no sin, no death.

 

[BruceLeiter]

When I consider this I have to ask myself "Where do I find that idea in scripture?".

When I look at this from either a Calvinist or Arminian perspective I find myself thinking that the elect are only those chosen by God for a purpose and the only ones that receive salvation and that sort of makes the entire idea of evangelism rather empty: If you weren't actually chosen by God, no matter what you may choose or not choose, you are left out. If you were chosen, then you are included no matter the reason for it.

The Arminian perspective is more to my liking, but I constantly have to remind myself that this, as well as the Calvinist, view is the doctrine of men and I look to see it directly see it represented in scripture in a manner that doesn't require me to interpret it (which leads me to becoming righteous only in my own mind).

So I still ponder such things, maybe to no avail but it seems to be my nature to do so.

Frank, I too want to go the Bible to find out what it says, not what people say from their own reasoning. Here are a couple passages for you:
Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
Rom 8:30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:32 He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
Rom 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,
Eph 1:8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight
Eph 1:9 making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ
Eph 1:10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
Eph 1:12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Eph 1:14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.

I quoted the full passages because it's always important to consider the full contexts of verses to get the full meaning. In Romans 8:29, Paul is talking about believers because of verse 28. The whole question is what "foreknew" means. Some take the dictionary or common meaning that God saw ahead of time who would decide to believe in him and then would believe in him (Arminian), while Calvinists believe in finding out the biblical meanings of words, since it is all God's Word. Thus, the word "know" is often used of the word between persons to mean "to have a loving, personal relationship between persons." As a result, they say that God "fore-loved" believers and thus enabled them to believe in him. That meaning is strongly supported in Ephesians 1 and 2, the latter of which says we are dead to God before we believe (verses 1-3), that God makes us alive to him when he provides us with faith by his grace (verses 4-9), and that he enables us to do good works that he has prepared for us to do (verse 10). Therefore, our salvation is 100% God's doing, not ours, because we can't muster up true faith on our own.