Universal Atonement - Part 2

[Lamb]

Why hasn't God influenced man to change the words though? That's the question. Your every day Joe reading the bible sees All and Whole and thinks of them as they are written. To change the meaning is really drastic, especially with the amount of instances where the type of wording exists in scripture.

All has two clear definitions based on context. In most cases, it's assumed that it means everyone without distinction. But context shows this to not be the case.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Hammster]

Why hasn't God influenced man to change the words though? That's the question. Your every day Joe reading the bible sees All and Whole and thinks of them as they are written. To change the meaning is really drastic, especially with the amount of instances where the type of wording exists in scripture.

There's no need to change the word. Everyone understood it when it was written. The meaning has not been changed. Did you know that "all" has two different definitions? Did you know that "world" is used at least 8 different ways by John? And it's the context that determines the meaning. So no necessity to change words when proper understand is possible.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

There's no need to change the word. Everyone understood it when it was written. The meaning has not been changed. Did you know that "all" has two different definitions? Did you know that "world" is used at least 8 different ways by John? And it's the context that determines the meaning. So no necessity to change words when proper understand is possible.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

Oh, I do know there CAN be two meanings but yet scholars on both sides have stated their cases. It's just that with few exceptions, people did not believe in limited atonement from the beginning as you claim. So, no, not everyone understood it in that manner.


1 Timothy 4:10 for for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.

With the above verse you can see the SPECIFIC distinction we have between Savior of all separated from especially of those believing. Yet, you're saying that He's the Savior of only those who believe...so the verse doesn't make sense the way your interpretation attempts to force it.

There are just too many instances in scripture that point to Christ being the Savior of the World. Even the demons know that He died for all, otherwise, if only the elect, the demons wouldn't be so hard at work, would they because it wouldn't make any difference? :rotfl:

 

[Hammster]

Since Paul was a Jew among Jews, he certainly believed in limited atonement. He believed it was limited to the Israelites. He understood that it was only for God's chosen people. There's no reason to think he changed his view. So to say that people didn't believe in limited Atonement from the beginning is just plainly wrong.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

Paul was also a Pharisee until he became a Christian when God opened His eyes. There are lots of verses to show that Paul believed in Universal Atonement.

 

[Hammster]

Paul was also a Pharisee until he became a Christian when God opened His eyes. There are lots of verses to show that Paul believed in Universal Atonement.

Let's pretend you're right. How does the Atonement benefit the Amalekites?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

Let's pretend you're right.

Yes, yes, I like that :thumbsup:

How does the Atonement benefit the Amalekites?

Benefit?

Everyone, since Genesis is saved in the same way, by grace through faith. Before Christ's death and resurrection, people were saved by their faith in the promise of a Savior. Those who rejected damned themselves because of unbelief.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with your question.

 

[Hammster]

Yes, yes, I like that :thumbsup:




Benefit?

Everyone, since Genesis is saved in the same way, by grace through faith. Before Christ's death and resurrection, people were saved by their faith in the promise of a Savior. Those who rejected damned themselves because of unbelief.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with your question.

Your premise is that Christ took the punishment for everyone's sins. If someone prior to the cross never heard of Christ, or the promise of a Savior, what benefit world the cross be to them?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

Ah, the age old question of What about those who never heard?

The answer is not to turn inward to ourselves. I don't have time to type this out so I'm going to copy and paste what scripture says instead of what man has reasoned scripture to say to make it fit within his own belief system:

Below is the copy and paste from Steadfast Lutherans
http://steadfastlutherans.org/2012/...hristians-and-muslims-believe-the-same-thing/


All people are sinners (Romans 3:23).
The penalty of sin is death – eternal separation from God (Romans 6:23).
Christ died to pay the penalty for the sin of the whole world (John 4:42; 1 John 2:2; etc.).
People are saved from eternal judgment when they put their trust (“believe”) in Christ’s death on the cross for their sin (John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; Acts 16:30,31; Ephesians 7:8,9; etc.).
Not all are saved; those who reject Christ’s payment for sin will eternally endure God’s wrath on sin in hell (John 3:18,36; Revelation 20:15).
God has put within people a basic awareness of Himself and of the requirement to do right (Romans 1:19,32; 2:15).
God has revealed Himself (as eternal, as all-powerful, as good, etc.) to all by means of the created world (Romans 1:20).
Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me” (John 14:6).
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).
“There is salvation in no one else…no other name under heaven…by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
God desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9).
John 1:29 – “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.”
Thus, in the fullness of time (Galatians 4:4) the Word became flesh (John 1:14) in order to suffer, die and rise again (Mark 10:32-34) undoing the sin of Adam and bringing salvation to all through his death (Romans 5:12-21).

Furthermore, Jesus has clearly told us to take the Gospel to those who have not heard, and He told us to be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us (1 Peter 3:15). God has revealed a great deal to us in Scripture.

In particular, he has revealed for us the command to spread the gospel to the ends of the earth (Luke 24:45-49; Matthew 28:16-20). And he has given us the clear promises of life and salvation in his name that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Romans 10:17), that his Word does not go out and return void but does what he accomplishes (Isaiah 55:10-11) and that he is with us always (Matthew 28:28).

 

[Hammster]

Not all are saved; those who reject Christ’s payment for sin will eternally endure God’s wrath on sin in hell (John 3:18,36; Revelation 20:15).

Let's look at this. How does this apply to anyone born before Christ, or before the gospel was ever delivered to them?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

Not all are saved; those who reject Christ’s payment for sin will eternally endure God’s wrath on sin in hell (John 3:18,36; Revelation 20:15).

Let's look at this. How does this apply to anyone born before Christ, or before the gospel was ever delivered to them?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

The promise of the Savior was given in Genesis. Those who rejected the promise of the Savior rejected God and the forgiveness that was to be won at the cross. They damned themselves.

Things have been consistent in scripture since the beginning. Salvation is by grace through faith, whether that Savior had died on the cross yet or not. Damnation is man's fault through unbelief/rejection of the Savior, whether He had died on the cross yet or not.

 

[Hammster]

The promise of the Savior was given in Genesis. Those who rejected the promise of the Savior rejected God and the forgiveness that was to be won at the cross. They damned themselves.

Things have been consistent in scripture since the beginning. Salvation is by grace through faith, whether that Savior had died on the cross yet or not. Damnation is man's fault through unbelief/rejection of the Savior, whether He had died on the cross yet or not.

I get that. But this still assumes that they knew.

And then there's this:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. - Ephesians 2:11-12

This refers to OT Gentiles.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

I get that. But this still assumes that they knew.

And then there's this:

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. - Ephesians 2:11-12

This refers to OT Gentiles.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

I believe you're trying to get back to "those who never heard"? Is that correct?

Scripture does not tell us the numbers of who knew the promise of the Savior and who did not. But we trust in these things that scripture DOES tell us. We are by nature enemies of God's wrath. We deserve eternal punishment for our sins. God is loving. God is just. God will have mercy on whomever He will have mercy.

Beyond that speculation is merely that. God has told us that anyone who rejects Him goes to Hell. When people hear that they tend to blame God thinking that those people didn't deserve eternal damnation for their sins accusing God of being unjust.

 

[Hammster]

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-
12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. - Ephesians 2:11-12

Paul is clear that the Gentiles were without hope. Yet you want to say that they had hope. And this goes back to what I've been saying about the Atonement. It was limited to God's chosen people on the OT. But this keeps getting ignored.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

Faith is a gift from God.

He gave that gift of faith to a Gentile named Rahab. It was not completely limited as you claim.

 

[Hammster]

Faith is a gift from God.

He gave that gift of faith to a Gentile named Rahab. It was not completely limited as you claim.

So Paul was wrong?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Lamb]

It's true that God set apart Israel for the line of the Christ to be born from but it's also true as I showed you that God chose to give faith not limited to the Israelites/Hebrews. God's promise of a Savior was for all the world since all the world tumbled into sin. Because of one man the world fell into sin and because of 1 man the world was atoned for that sin.

 

[Hammster]

It's true that God set apart Israel for the line of the Christ to be born from but it's also true as I showed you that God chose to give faith not limited to the Israelites/Hebrews. God's promise of a Savior was for all the world since all the world tumbled into sin. Because of one man the world fell into sin and because of 1 man the world was atoned for that sin.

Okay. If faith is a gift of God, then we can assume (since not everyone is saved) that God does not grant faith to everyone. You made an earlier argument that since Christ died for all, we can tell everyone that Christ died for them, but they need to believe. However, while that's true, it's not true that they can believe. So we are left with, in the view you've presented, Christ dying for those He knows He will not grant faith to.


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.

 

[Forgiven1]

Christ did die for all. It is a human that turns away from God or denies God. God grieves over those who deny Him. We do need to tell all that Christ died for them because He did. We have no idea who is and who isn't going to deny Him. The free gift of salvation is for ALL. Not all believe.

 

[Hammster]

Christ did die for all. It is a human that turns away from God or denies God. God grieves over those who deny Him. We do need to tell all that Christ died for them because He did. We have no idea who is and who isn't going to deny Him. The free gift of salvation is for ALL. Not all believe.

What did His death accomplish?


Sent from my iPhone using my right thumb.