What is sin?

[visionary]

Salvation is commonly known in Yeshua's work of redeeming mankind. But there is salvation in obedience that is not as well understood. I think this stems from the argument that obedience to God's commandments is good but not necessary for our salvation. Our sin, i.e. disobedience to God, does not affect our salvation. And in here lies the problem.

To support this claim they may quote KJV

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Since no connection between salvation and obedience is made, it appears to be a good support for the claim, until other accurate translations of the Bible are consulted. Here is New American Standard Bible

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Salvation and Obedience are connected even for Yeshua.

Romans 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith.

This is the fate of Yeshua if He had failed.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Roman 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[visionary]

What I am seeing here is that "salvation is in Yeshua alone" ideology among those who resist what I am presenting. I understand that. It is a commonly taught ideology among those who refuse to obey the commandments of God. The role of obedience in our salvation is often nullified by popular theologians.

They have persuaded us that there’s an irreconcilable conflict between salvation based on grace and salvation conditioned on obedience. These theologians tell us that there are only two possibilities regarding salvation: it’s either a gift from God or it’s something we earn by our works. They have created a “false dilemma” with their erroneous form of argumentation.

The gift of salvation is no less a gift simply because it’s conditioned on faith and obedience. These theologians will readily acknowledge the condition of faith, yet they say that even faith is a gift from God.

So unless I address this core problem, it would be hard to see Yeshua needing to be obedient even unto death for His salvation let alone ours.

Romans 6:16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Yeshua chose obedience that leads to the righteous living life. That is His salvation.

Matt 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Yeshua never states that which could have been His own fate had He failed.

Matthew 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua said

Matt 19:17 Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Alithis]

Yeshua said

Matt 19:17 Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

well no . he said keep 'my - commandments ' then in the same conversation he says his words "- which os to say you will listen to me and do what i tell you to do .it is not a reference to the mosaic law .

He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will reveal Myself to him.” Judas (not Iscariot) *said to Him, “Lord, what then has happened that You are going to disclose Yourself to us and not to the world?” Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine, but the Father’s who sent Me.
“These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. (john)

but in matt 19 he is speaking i notice of the inadequacy of 'that " law .. to save .for his words evoke the question .=who then can be saved ?
to which he replies -with man it is impossible ..

but with god all things are possible .. so we see salvation by observing the ordinance of law is impossible ,but salvation by obedience to what the lord jesus (who is god speaking ) says. can -and does , save .
this obedience to what he tells us to do is not about observing the ordinance of the law .. but about obeying the words god is saying to us ...

the first thing Jesus ever says when he begins to preach is - repent , for the kingdom of god is near !
so we see without repentance there is no obedience to what he is teling us to do, there is then no love for him . he also said , repentance for the forgiveness of sin is to be preached .
his message is all good news and it is an instructive message .. it says .. you are sinners .. BUT if you will follow these instructions you will be saved .. and if you continue to follow these instructions and the instructor (the holy Spirit )unto the end .. you will be saved .
the instructions are simple
-repent
-be baptised
and recive the holy Spirit .

at no time to they say repent ,be baptized then renege on repentance and return to your sin .
and at no time does he leave us powerless to walk in the new life he gives us .. for if we have sincerely repented he gives us the POWER (authority ) of his holy Spirit, enabling us to do what we ourselves could never do .

 

[Lamb]

I've been reading these threads today and have so much spinning through my mind. I have a lot to say, and I hope it comes out coherently.
Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, I was born into sin. I am a slave to sin, and there is no free will to 'not' sin. My sin nature causes me to sin daily. We sin 24/7/365, and there is nothing we can do about it. There are willful sins, accidental sins, unknown sins, sins of commission and sins of omission. I don't want to sin, but I do. As Paul said in Romans 7: " We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Yes, I am a slave to sin. Because of sin I will die, but only a physical death. Why? Because I know that God sent his only Son, Jesus, to live a perfect life in my place, completely sinless - who suffered, died and rose again to complete the payment for my sins. When I leave this earth, I will enter heaven, and then, finally, I will sin no more. Thank God that He sent his Son! In the meantime, on this earth, I will strive to be a better Christian. I can improve, but not come anywhere close to perfection. I will always falter, and I will always sin. And it's not ok. I pray for forgiveness of all my sins. I go to church where I am fed the Word of God. The Word which reminds me that I am not only a sinner, but also a saint at the same time. The Word which reminds me that Jesus paid the price so that I may be saved. By partaking of the Word and Sacraments, I am forgiven of the sins that I commit constantly.

A sin is anything that is displeasing to God. We don't even know what all is sin. Some are obvious, but not all. We can very well be doing something every day that we think is just fine, but is displeasing to God. If God were to look at me, just as I am, he would see nothing but a dirty rotten sinner deserving of nothing but punishment and hell. But because he mercifully sent His Son, I am seen by God not in my sinful nature, but clothed in Christ - a sinless, perfect being. "Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

Well said!

 

[Lamb]

What I am seeing here is that "salvation is in Yeshua alone" ideology among those who resist what I am presenting. I understand that. It is a commonly taught ideology among those who refuse to obey the commandments of God. The role of obedience in our salvation is often nullified by popular theologians.

It's not that we refuse to obey the commandments of God, so let's get that off the table right away.

We rely on the Savior because HE saves us. We rely on HIS obedience that covers us in His righteousness. Our obedience doesn't even come close to comparing to His. That's why God found the sacrifice acceptable, our sins are forgiven and we are among the redeemed, those who by grace through faith believe.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes Jesus is our advocate and we need forgiveness daily but we also need to obey to the best of our ability or else we crucify Him amew

 

[visionary]

well no . he said keep 'my - commandments ' then in the same conversation he says his words "- which os to say you will listen to me and do what i tell you to do .it is not a reference to the mosaic law ....<snipped for convenience. > .

You are right they are not the Ten Commandments in the sense that they are His halacha of obeying the Ten Commandments.

 

[visionary]

It's not that we refuse to obey the commandments of God, so let's get that off the table right away.

We rely on the Savior because HE saves us. We rely on HIS obedience that covers us in His righteousness. Our obedience doesn't even come close to comparing to His. That's why God found the sacrifice acceptable, our sins are forgiven and we are among the redeemed, those who by grace through faith believe.

There is still a disconnect here..... While out efforts are covered in His righteousness, He still requires us to be obedient. That is the whole goal of God, is to return His rebellious people to the original walk with His in obedience. Just as an infants first steps are wobbly, God still requires that we make the effort. He will "keep us from falling"

 

[visionary]

Yes Jesus is our advocate and we need forgiveness daily but we also need to obey to the best of our ability or else we crucify Him amew

Thank you

 

[Josiah]

I've been reading these threads today and have so much spinning through my mind. I have a lot to say, and I hope it comes out coherently.
Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, I was born into sin. I am a slave to sin, and there is no free will to 'not' sin. My sin nature causes me to sin daily. We sin 24/7/365, and there is nothing we can do about it. There are willful sins, accidental sins, unknown sins, sins of commission and sins of omission. I don't want to sin, but I do. As Paul said in Romans 7: " We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Yes, I am a slave to sin. Because of sin I will die, but only a physical death. Why? Because I know that God sent his only Son, Jesus, to live a perfect life in my place, completely sinless - who suffered, died and rose again to complete the payment for my sins. When I leave this earth, I will enter heaven, and then, finally, I will sin no more. Thank God that He sent his Son! In the meantime, on this earth, I will strive to be a better Christian. I can improve, but not come anywhere close to perfection. I will always falter, and I will always sin. And it's not ok. I pray for forgiveness of all my sins. I go to church where I am fed the Word of God. The Word which reminds me that I am not only a sinner, but also a saint at the same time. The Word which reminds me that Jesus paid the price so that I may be saved. By partaking of the Word and Sacraments, I am forgiven of the sins that I commit constantly.

A sin is anything that is displeasing to God. We don't even know what all is sin. Some are obvious, but not all. We can very well be doing something every day that we think is just fine, but is displeasing to God. If God were to look at me, just as I am, he would see nothing but a dirty rotten sinner deserving of nothing but punishment and hell. But because he mercifully sent His Son, I am seen by God not in my sinful nature, but clothed in Christ - a sinless, perfect being. "Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

:thumbsup:



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

"there is no free will to 'not' sin." ... Choose this day whom you will serve.

 

[Josiah]

"there is no free will to 'not' sin." ... Choose this day whom you will serve.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.

We sin, "miss the mark," "fall short" because we are imperfect - and thus NEED to stand in CONSTANT need of Christ - His mercy, His forgiveness.... His heart, His love..... His salvation, His justification.... HIS works, HIS life..... HIS death, HIS resurrection. "Christ, have MERCY on us"

Our "choosing" to serve Him unfortunately does not include our sudden exclusion of sin.... It simply means that in SANCTIFICATION (our lives as the justified) we SEEK some things, we STRIVE for them.




.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I've been reading these threads today and have so much spinning through my mind. I have a lot to say, and I hope it comes out coherently.
Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, I was born into sin. I am a slave to sin, and there is no free will to 'not' sin.

If your comment applies to yourself alone then it has credibility as a personal testimony. If you think it applies to everybody then it has less credibility as a general statement of doctrine and truth. Clearly there are those in the holy scriptures who are commended by God for their righteousness. I've posted numerous times about Jehovah's statement regarding Job as a man who was perfect (Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.). Some have attempted to minimise Job's purity by suggesting that his perfection was relative to the sinful people in the earth at the time but that does not appear to be the intended meaning of the passage because the words attributed to Jehovah are spoken to Satan who had recently come "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" which sets the phrase "in the earth" as a geographical reference rather than a moral one. There is also Enoch of whom it is said that he walked with God and that he pleased God (Genesis 5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God). These two men are enough to set a precedence that would overthrow a doctrine proclaiming that all men without exception are not free to not sin. But if your doctrine is intended to reflect upon original sin rather than on actual sins then it has more credibility than the bare words in themselves suggest. Had you written that "I am a slave to sin and all men (and women) as enslaved to sin through the sin of the first man Adam's fall from original innocence into sin" then you'd be making a far more tenable statement of doctrine. But that is not what you wrote so I cannot agree with your statement as it stands.

My sin nature causes me to sin daily. We sin 24/7/365, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Here you start with a personal statement and then you expand it to all others. While it may be true that you can do nothing (or will do nothing, I do not know what you intend by this claim that "we can do nothing about it") about your own state it is not true that no one can. The holy scriptures take a very different stand on the matter of doing something about personal sins. Here are some examples:

• John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
• Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
• 1Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
• Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Examples can be multiplied. The idea that there is nothing one can do about sins is not the teaching of Christ.

There are willful sins, accidental sins, unknown sins, sins of commission and sins of omission. I don't want to sin, but I do. As Paul said in Romans 7: " We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

Yes, I am a slave to sin. Because of sin I will die, but only a physical death.

While it is true that death is in the world because of sin and that sin has touched every man and woman born of Adam and Eve it is not true that only those who sin die. The Lord Jesus Christ died yet he was without sin (Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.). Thus a man without sin died for the ungodly and this, the holy scriptures tell us, enables those joined to Christ in baptism to be set free from the power of sin in their lives (Romans 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.). So given the testimony of the holy scriptures and of baptism the faithful ought not to acquiesce to sin nor maintain that "there is nothing that we can do about it".

Why? Because I know that God sent his only Son, Jesus, to live a perfect life in my place, completely sinless - who suffered, died and rose again to complete the payment for my sins. When I leave this earth, I will enter heaven, and then, finally, I will sin no more. Thank God that He sent his Son! In the meantime, on this earth, I will strive to be a better Christian. I can improve, but not come anywhere close to perfection. I will always falter, and I will always sin. And it's not ok. I pray for forgiveness of all my sins. I go to church where I am fed the Word of God. The Word which reminds me that I am not only a sinner, but also a saint at the same time. The Word which reminds me that Jesus paid the price so that I may be saved. By partaking of the Word and Sacraments, I am forgiven of the sins that I commit constantly.

A sin is anything that is displeasing to God. We don't even know what all is sin. Some are obvious, but not all. We can very well be doing something every day that we think is just fine, but is displeasing to God. If God were to look at me, just as I am, he would see nothing but a dirty rotten sinner deserving of nothing but punishment and hell. But because he mercifully sent His Son, I am seen by God not in my sinful nature, but clothed in Christ - a sinless, perfect being. "Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

There is much I could write in reply to the above but this post is already rather long so I will not add to it now.

 

[Josiah]

1 John 1:8 (NIV), If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

 

[Josiah]

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

-

Perhaps LIVING in it (or in another verse, it REIGNING OVER us) refers not to our being sinless (and thus making the Bible errant) but rather what is lord is our lives, what we are dedicated to. As the justified/saved, we have a new focus....... but do we thus become perfect as God is, sinless, making the Bible wrong when it says "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short" "ALL miss the mark." "If we claim to have no sin, we lie and only deceive ourselves." Paul (um..... SAINT Paul) calls himself the "CHIEF of sinners" and stresses that he is NOT perfect (thus, falls short, misses the mark) BUT he presses on - not so that God will make Paul His own but because God has made Paul His own.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Let the facts speak or themselves.

Romans 6:13-16 Do not yield your members to sin as instruments of wickedness, but yield yourselves to God as men who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments of righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

 

[Alithis]

"there is no free will to 'not' sin." ... Choose this day whom you will serve.

there is freedom from sin in Christ Jesus for whom the son sets free is free indeed .
this means we are free to choose not to .

before Christ we were prisoners to sin.
but now having been reconciled to the father we are free and set aside unto obedience .
if we go on sinning once have been set free from the power it had over us it is because 1- we don not fully know yet nor have applied by faith the freedom he has won for us (which means we have not yet entered his salvation .
.or 2- we simply love the sin more then we love God .

 

[visionary]

there is freedom from sin in Christ Jesus for whom the son sets free is free indeed .
this means we are free to choose not to .

before Christ we were prisoners to sin.
but now having been reconciled to the father we are free and set aside unto obedience .
if we go on sinning once have been set free from the power it had over us it is because 1- we don not fully know yet nor have applied by faith the freedom he has won for us (which means we have not yet entered his salvation .
.or 2- we simply love the sin more then we love God .

I think you have the impression that this is my statement... but I was just commenting off this..

Originally Posted by LutheranChick View Post
I've been reading these threads today and have so much spinning through my mind. I have a lot to say, and I hope it comes out coherently.
Because of the fall of Adam and Eve, I was born into sin. I am a slave to sin, and there is no free will to 'not' sin.