What is sin?

[Alithis]

.. [MENTION=131]visionary[/MENTION]..yeh i did misread it.
And i was being me haha.

 

[LutheranChick]

There is much here to refute, so I will just take a chunk at a time and respond, as I have a life too!

If your comment applies to yourself alone then it has credibility as a personal testimony. If you think it applies to everybody then it has less credibility as a general statement of doctrine and truth. Clearly there are those in the holy scriptures who are commended by God for their righteousness. I've posted numerous times about Jehovah's statement regarding Job as a man who was perfect (Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.). Some have attempted to minimise Job's purity by suggesting that his perfection was relative to the sinful people in the earth at the time but that does not appear to be the intended meaning of the passage because the words attributed to Jehovah are spoken to Satan who had recently come "From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it" which sets the phrase "in the earth" as a geographical reference rather than a moral one. There is also Enoch of whom it is said that he walked with God and that he pleased God (Genesis 5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God translated him: for he hath had witness borne to him that before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God). These two men are enough to set a precedence that would overthrow a doctrine proclaiming that all men without exception are not free to not sin. But if your doctrine is intended to reflect upon original sin rather than on actual sins then it has more credibility than the bare words in themselves suggest. Had you written that "I am a slave to sin and all men (and women) as enslaved to sin through the sin of the first man Adam's fall from original innocence into sin" then you'd be making a far more tenable statement of doctrine. But that is not what you wrote so I cannot agree with your statement as it stands.

100% of ALL people, living, dead, and those who have not been born yet, were born into sin and are slaves to sin. It is not possible for a human being to be sinless. The only human that was ever sinless is Jesus Christ, but he is also God. He is the only One born without sin. (Adam and Eve were created, not born)
You keep clinging to one verse that you claim says that Job was sinless. The Bible does not say that Job was sinless. Blameless is not the same as sinless. Yes, Job was a righteous, God-fearing man that obviously stood head and shoulders above others, in his faith. But he was not sinless. He admits himself that he is a sinner, in the following verses: 6:24, 7:21 and 42:6. (I wish I knew how to insert links to those verses but I don't, so you'll just have to look them up yourself). I noticed you used the word perfect, and not blameless. I looked up several translations and I only saw one translation that uses the word perfect as the translated word. The other translations I looked up all used blameless. You are placing too much emphasis on the word 'perfect'. In this context, it does not mean sinless. You have been provided with multiple, multiple quotes of Bible passages which CLEARLY state that ALL have sinned. In reading the Bible, if you come upon a verse that you do not understand, you should look up other passages to help you understand what a verse means. In this case, it is clear that 'blameless' or 'perfect' cannot mean sinless. You have been provided the verses. Are you saying that all of those verses are wrong? Well, then the Bible is wrong and there's no point in believing anything it says! We might as well hang it all up here. But, that is not the case. The Bible - all of it - is the inspired Word of God and contains no contradictions or errors. If one sees an apparent contradiction or error, then you MUST look at other verses to understand.

The same goes for Enoch. Enoch was righteous and found favor with God. But he was NOT sinless. Again, 'blameless' or 'perfect' in this context does not = sinless. Yes, God took him directly to Heaven. The Bible does not say why this happened, and it most certainly does not say he was taken up because he was sinless! It also says that Enoch 'walked with God'. This does not mean sinless either. He had a very close relationship with God. It is interesting that the same phrase and words - 'walked with God', 'righteous' and 'blameless' (or in the case of your translation, 'perfect') are also used to describe Noah. We know that Noah was CERTAINLY not sinless! So why do you continue to cling to the fabrication that Enoch and Job were sinless? The Bible cannot be more clear in telling us that we are ALL sinners. If you miss that, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Your 'correction' of my statement : "I am a slave to sin and all men (and women) as enslaved to sin through the sin of the first man Adam's fall from original innocence into sin" means nothing more than what I said - I was born into sin, I am a slave to sin and I cannot 'not' sin. And when I say 'I', I also mean ALL. My 'personal testimony' is the exact same personal testimony of every person.

That's all the time I have for now - probably all weekend. But let me just leave you with this - do not EVER, for one single second think you can be sinless That is dangerous. If people think they can do that, then they will start to think they don't need God. I would love to be sinless - but of course I am not capable of that, as no one is. I can certainly try to not sin but sin is part of our nature. We can, and should, pray to God to forgive our sins also, but we do not have the ability to be sinless. The Bible tells us to be PERFECT - that means we cannot sin in any way shape or form, not in thought, word or deed - and that is impossible. BUT, since Christ died for my sins, God DOES see me as perfect, free from sin. What a wonderful comforting thing to know! And THAT, my friend, is the GOSPEL. End of part one.

 

[Alithis]

There is much here to refute, so I will just take a chunk at a time and respond, as I have a life too!

100% of ALL people, living, dead, and those who have not been born yet, were born into sin and are slaves to sin. It is not possible for a human being to be sinless. The only human that was ever sinless is Jesus Christ, but he is also God. He is the only One born without sin. (Adam and Eve were created, not born)
You keep clinging to one verse that you claim says that Job was sinless. The Bible does not say that Job was sinless. Blameless is not the same as sinless. Yes, Job was a righteous, God-fearing man that obviously stood head and shoulders above others, in his faith. But he was not sinless. He admits himself that he is a sinner, in the following verses: 6:24, 7:21 and 42:6. (I wish I knew how to insert links to those verses but I don't, so you'll just have to look them up yourself). I noticed you used the word perfect, and not blameless. I looked up several translations and I only saw one translation that uses the word perfect as the translated word. The other translations I looked up all used blameless. You are placing too much emphasis on the word 'perfect'. In this context, it does not mean sinless. You have been provided with multiple, multiple quotes of Bible passages which CLEARLY state that ALL have sinned. In reading the Bible, if you come upon a verse that you do not understand, you should look up other passages to help you understand what a verse means. In this case, it is clear that 'blameless' or 'perfect' cannot mean sinless. You have been provided the verses. Are you saying that all of those verses are wrong? Well, then the Bible is wrong and there's no point in believing anything it says! We might as well hang it all up here. But, that is not the case. The Bible - all of it - is the inspired Word of God and contains no contradictions or errors. If one sees an apparent contradiction or error, then you MUST look at other verses to understand.

The same goes for Enoch. Enoch was righteous and found favor with God. But he was NOT sinless. Again, 'blameless' or 'perfect' in this context does not = sinless. Yes, God took him directly to Heaven. The Bible does not say why this happened, and it most certainly does not say he was taken up because he was sinless! It also says that Enoch 'walked with God'. This does not mean sinless either. He had a very close relationship with God. It is interesting that the same phrase and words - 'walked with God', 'righteous' and 'blameless' (or in the case of your translation, 'perfect') are also used to describe Noah. We know that Noah was CERTAINLY not sinless! So why do you continue to cling to the fabrication that Enoch and Job were sinless? The Bible cannot be more clear in telling us that we are ALL sinners. If you miss that, then I just don't know what to tell you.

Your 'correction' of my statement : "I am a slave to sin and all men (and women) as enslaved to sin through the sin of the first man Adam's fall from original innocence into sin" means nothing more than what I said - I was born into sin, I am a slave to sin and I cannot 'not' sin. And when I say 'I', I also mean ALL. My 'personal testimony' is the exact same personal testimony of every person.

That's all the time I have for now - probably all weekend. But let me just leave you with this - do not EVER, for one single second think you can be sinless That is dangerous. If people think they can do that, then they will start to think they don't need God. I would love to be sinless - but of course I am not capable of that, as no one is. I can certainly try to not sin but sin is part of our nature. We can, and should, pray to God to forgive our sins also, but we do not have the ability to be sinless. The Bible tells us to be PERFECT - that means we cannot sin in any way shape or form, not in thought, word or deed - and that is impossible. BUT, since Christ died for my sins, God DOES see me as perfect, free from sin. What a wonderful comforting thing to know! And THAT, my friend, is the GOSPEL. End of part one.

@ LutheranChick

no one is sinless .. in that all are tainted with Adams blood and will invariable become guilty at some point of their own sin .

but it appears this is a strong Lutheran standpoint which seems to deny the power of the lord Jesus in a persons life

as if he cannot do what he said he came to do ..,set free from sin . you see he did not just come to forgive past sin, but set us free from its power and dominion over us . if it then has no more power or dominion over us then what compels us to do it once we are set free from it ? most here attack me for asking but do not yet ever answer that question .


why do you suggest a person has no choice but to continue sinning ?
when the scriptures state that if we are born again of water and spirit .. dead to our old man by being BURIED into his death in the waters of baptism and raised up again in Christ as a NEW CREATION .. then what can compel this new creation to do an action it knows to be a sinful action . shall it steal , lie , commit adultery ,take the lords name in vain ? shall it murder , covet, bare false testimony etc ?
why would that new creation in Christ to go and do these things , the guilt of which it has been delivered from, again?

how can you deem the scripture to be untrue when the lord Jesus has said whom the son sets free is free indeed - where does being free entail being compelled beyond your own will to do an action you do not choose to do ?
and where oh where does the scripture ever call a disciple of Jesus an ongoing sinner?
and why does john write ..
The one who practices( practices equates to an ongoing repeated action ) sin is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the very start. This is why the Son of God was revealed, to destroy the works of the devil. Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil can be distinguished: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.….

we see fro those verses that the reason they wont go on sinning (they may sin at first but they will not go one doing so ).. is because NOW ..they are born of god .. before .. when they were under all have sinned there is none righteous , they were(past tense ) not born of god .. but now something has changed (OR the scriptures lie ) and they are now born of god with an incorruptible seed and the spirit of Christ in them . they are not the creature they were before CHRIST .
NOW they are free , now they have a choice . now they are not a slave to sin . and since they are not its unwilling slave .. why do you suggest they have no choice but to continue in slave-hood to it -in opposition to the scriptures .

it comes across as a very elaborate reasoning to self justify the continuance of sin. simply because some people do't actually believe that Christ came to make us overcomes HE OVERCAME .

 

[Josiah]

but it appears this is a strong Lutheran standpoint which seems to deny the power of the lord Jesus in a persons life

No. Just a denial that we don't need no God, no Christ, no Savior, no Blood, no mercy, no justification/salvation..... just TIME and HELP.

No. Just a denial that we are perfect like God, holy like God, loving like God and thus Christ was a joke and we should be Jews or Muslims or Bhatki Hindus looking to God NOT for mercy and forgiveness but just sufficient time and help.

No. We are "set free" from the PUNISHMENT of sin, the CONSEQUENCE of sin, the GUILT of sin - but unless you can produce that much waited for list of at least 10 living Christians who are PERFECT just as and as much as God, HOLY just as and as much God, LOVING just as and as much as God - we don't affirm that we ARE sinless and thus Christ is a joke, Christ lies when it says that NO ONE is righteous and that if one claims to be sinless such LIES and that Christianity is a joke - instead, modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism are right - what we need is NOT the Savior but just a little help from a friend until we become perfect, sinless, holy, loving just like God, just as much as God.

HE OVERCAME .

Yup. Which is why you need to stop looking to the Law and in the mirror for salvation.... you need to look to the Cross and to the Gospel.




Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

There is much here to refute, so I will just take a chunk at a time and respond, as I have a life too!

100% of ALL people, living, dead, and those who have not been born yet, were born into sin and are slaves to sin. It is not possible for a human being to be sinless. The only human that was ever sinless is Jesus Christ, but he is also God. He is the only One born without sin. (Adam and Eve were created, not born)

Jesus was born and is a human being yet he was 100% without sin so your claim need to be qualified with at least a "Christ alone excepted".

You keep clinging to one verse that you claim says that Job was sinless.

I quoted one verse but it is not the only verse that states that Job was perfect and upright eschewing evil.

• Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil.
• Job 1:8 And Jehovah said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil.

The book concludes with Jehovah speaking of Job once again saying:

• Job 42:7 And it was so, that, after Jehovah had spoken these words unto Job, Jehovah said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends; for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

It was Satan who accused Job of sin. It is interesting to see how a theology can make its advocates repeat Satan's accusations.

The Bible does not say that Job was sinless.

Neither did I say that Job was sinless. I was careful to let the holy scriptures speak their own message about Job. But here we are with you complaining about what was written in my post which included the quote of Job 1.8. Somehow you've read "a perfect and an upright man" as "sinless" and you've ignored what I wrote about how to correct your erroneous doctrinal statement by saying this:

I am a slave to sin and all men (and women) as enslaved to sin through the sin of the first man Adam's fall from original innocence into sin​

instead of this:

I am a slave to sin, and there is no free will to 'not' sin​

Blameless is not the same as sinless. Yes, Job was a righteous, God-fearing man that obviously stood head and shoulders above others, in his faith. But he was not sinless. He admits himself that he is a sinner, in the following verses: 6:24, 7:21 and 42:6. (I wish I knew how to insert links to those verses but I don't, so you'll just have to look them up yourself). I noticed you used the word perfect, and not blameless. I looked up several translations and I only saw one translation that uses the word perfect as the translated word. The other translations I looked up all used blameless. You are placing too much emphasis on the word 'perfect'. In this context, it does not mean sinless. You have been provided with multiple, multiple quotes of Bible passages which CLEARLY state that ALL have sinned. In reading the Bible, if you come upon a verse that you do not understand, you should look up other passages to help you understand what a verse means. In this case, it is clear that 'blameless' or 'perfect' cannot mean sinless. You have been provided the verses. Are you saying that all of those verses are wrong? Well, then the Bible is wrong and there's no point in believing anything it says! We might as well hang it all up here. But, that is not the case. The Bible - all of it - is the inspired Word of God and contains no contradictions or errors. If one sees an apparent contradiction or error, then you MUST look at other verses to understand.

The same goes for Enoch. Enoch was righteous and found favor with God. But he was NOT sinless. Again, 'blameless' or 'perfect' in this context does not = sinless. Yes, God took him directly to Heaven. The Bible does not say why this happened, and it most certainly does not say he was taken up because he was sinless! It also says that Enoch 'walked with God'. This does not mean sinless either. He had a very close relationship with God. It is interesting that the same phrase and words - 'walked with God', 'righteous' and 'blameless' (or in the case of your translation, 'perfect') are also used to describe Noah. We know that Noah was CERTAINLY not sinless! So why do you continue to cling to the fabrication that Enoch and Job were sinless? The Bible cannot be more clear in telling us that we are ALL sinners. If you miss that, then I just don't know what to tell you.

The comments in the above portion of your post are aimed at something you've imagined about what I wrote but not at anything that I did in fact write so I am leaving what you said with only this brief note about how far from the mark it is and hence how irrelevant it is.

Your 'correction' of my statement : "I am a slave to sin and all men (and women) as enslaved to sin through the sin of the first man Adam's fall from original innocence into sin" means nothing more than what I said - I was born into sin, I am a slave to sin and I cannot 'not' sin. And when I say 'I', I also mean ALL. My 'personal testimony' is the exact same personal testimony of every person.

You say that "My 'personal testimony' is the exact same personal testimony of every person" but that is not the testimony that Jehovah gave about Job. Jehovah said Hast thou considered my servant Job? for there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and turneth away from evil. Jehovah confirms that Job did in fact turn away from evil and was in fact a perfect and upright man yet your stated claim is the opposite insofar as you deny that any man can be perfect and upright as was Job. You affirm that ALL people are unable to not sin. And if one disposes of the double negative your affirmation is that all people sin constantly. You do not, as far as I can tell, assert that their constant sinning is a moment to moment continuous state of sinning.

That's all the time I have for now - probably all weekend. But let me just leave you with this - do not EVER, for one single second think you can be sinless That is dangerous. If people think they can do that, then they will start to think they don't need God. I would love to be sinless - but of course I am not capable of that, as no one is. I can certainly try to not sin but sin is part of our nature. We can, and should, pray to God to forgive our sins also, but we do not have the ability to be sinless. The Bible tells us to be PERFECT - that means we cannot sin in any way shape or form, not in thought, word or deed - and that is impossible. BUT, since Christ died for my sins, God DOES see me as perfect, free from sin. What a wonderful comforting thing to know! And THAT, my friend, is the GOSPEL. End of part one.

Your final remarks contradict holy scripture.

 

[Alithis]

No. Just a denial that we don't need no God, no Christ, no Savior, no Blood, no mercy, no justification/salvation..... just TIME and HELP.

No. Just a denial that we are perfect like God, holy like God, loving like God and thus Christ was a joke and we should be Jews or Muslims or Bhatki Hindus looking to God NOT for mercy and forgiveness but just sufficient time and help.

No. We are "set free" from the PUNISHMENT of sin, the CONSEQUENCE of sin, the GUILT of sin - but unless you can produce that much waited for list of at least 10 living Christians who are PERFECT just as and as much as God, HOLY just as and as much God, LOVING just as and as much as God - we don't affirm that we ARE sinless and thus Christ is a joke, Christ lies when it says that NO ONE is righteous and that if one claims to be sinless such LIES and that Christianity is a joke - instead, modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism are right - what we need is NOT the Savior but just a little help from a friend until we become perfect, sinless, holy, loving just like God, just as much as God.


Yup. Which is why you need to stop looking to the Law and in the mirror for salvation.... you need to look to the Cross and to the Gospel.

Pax CHRISTI

Josiah

for the umpteenth time .. ive not mentioned mosaic law lol -its always you who bring it up .amazing really .you seem a bit obsessed by that which we are not under .
i have but mentioned the perfect law of life which we don't continue to break..
as that would be just awful . it only makes a person feel guilt if they are guilty of it .. ouhh ooups .. are you ? you should repent then . then you wont have to keep feeling guilty of it over and over again .


Yes we are set free - so why go back into that which you have been set free from?.. do you love that yummy sin do you ? perhaps the devil puts a chain around your neck and forces you to steal something from a shop does he ? because the Jesus you preach cant seem to give you any power to over come .

ou wait- the scriptures says he can and does give us all authority over the enemy .. hmm
well i guess we should use that authority then .
oh but of course we must believe his word is true first .

 

[Lamb]

Law is law. It always accuses and shows us our sin. It doesn't matter which type of law it is.

 

[psalms 91]

Each dispensation or law giving was just an improvement on the old so none is really done away with as some think

 

[MoreCoffee]

Law is law. It always accuses and shows us our sin. It doesn't matter which type of law it is.

And you think that some of the Sermon on the mount accuses?

 

[Rens]

Law is law. It always accuses and shows us our sin. It doesn't matter which type of law it is.

The Holy Spirit convicts. He never accuses, even though He uses the Word, law. The Word can be sharp, but if He does it, it's only to set you free and restore.
If you feel accused it's because the devil can use the Word too.

 

[Josiah]

And you think that some of the Sermon on the mount accuses?

The Sermon on the Mount is virtually all LAW. So yes, its theological purpose is to accuse, condemned, reveal our sinfulness, our falleness, our missing the mark and falling short.


The LAW:

What is the Law?

The Law is the will of God - flowing from His absolute perfection and justice. It is, in essence, that we be as He is - not in terms of essence but character.


Psalm 51:5 "I was sinful at birth"

Genesis 8:21, "Every inclination of man's heart is evil from childhood."

Romans 5:12, "Sin entered the world through one man's sin, and death through sin, and therefore death came to all men for all have sinned."

First John 3:4, "Sin is lawlessness"

Romans 3:12, "There is no one who does good, not even one."

Mark 10:18, "There is none who is good but God exclusively."

First John 1:10, "If we claim we have no sin, we make God a liar and His word is not in us."

There are at least 613 laws specifically written just in the Old Testament. We think often of the Ten Commandments but actually there are many, many more just in the OT
- and still more in the NT
.




What does the Law mandate?

Essentially, that our character be identical to His.


Matthew 5:48, "You must be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

1 Peter 1:16, "You must be holy even as God in heaven is holy."

John 15:12, "Love all people just as I (Jesus) first loved you."

Ephesians 4:32, "forgiving one another, just as God in Christ first forgave you."

First John 2:6, "Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did."

Philippians 2:5, "You must have the same attitude that Christ did."




The word "sin" literally means "to miss the mark." In ancient Greece, if an archer missed the target, the therefore "sinned" because he missed the mark, missed the target. The Bible says "ALL fall short." IF you have absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7 "hit" all the targets above, then you are obedient and free of sin. Otherwise...... Well, the Bible would be correct and not lying when it says that "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "For ALL fall short." "NO ONE is good." "If you claim to have no sin (you hit the mark), then you lie and call God a liar."


The LAW has two functions:

Civil - Our relationships in this fallen world. This was not given until around 1400 BC when the first Law was given to Moses on Mount Sinai, with a purpose of GUIDING peoples' relationships. This is very much like our own national laws - they govern relationships. Civil law does not get us into heaven, it helps us get along with others, it helps our society work better.... if everyone kept the law, this would be a nicer place in which to live and die (and eventually go to hell). This applies just as much to non-Christians as to Christians - it applies to all. The Law cannot save - and in this first use, it's not remotely its intention. Now.... true..... IF we kept all the law, we'd go to heaven (because we would not NEED God or Christ or mercy or forgiveness or salvation or justification or the Cross or the Blood - we'd not need the Gospel - because we'd essentially be God: divinely perfect, divinely holy, divinely loving..... totally, absolutely..... 100%....... 24/7...... but then in that case, we'd not need the civil law because we'd be perfect - in nature, in being, in attitude, in thought, in word, in deed. We can NEVER achieve the Law (and we don't). Like Paul, we must confess that we are "CHIEF OF SINNERS" and that we are not - not - perfect as God demands.... but we CAN press on toward that. Why? Because Jesus was a joke and Christianity is wrong - we gotta save ourselves? WE save SELF via the Law - by being absolutely 100% perfect just as God is perfect? Nope. We press on toward that because our life and our world would be a whole lot better off. And because it pleases God whom we love.



Theological - Our relationship to God. This is to drive us to our knees, to drive us to despair, to accuse us, to drive us to God's MERCY, God's HEART, God's FORGIVENESS..... to reveal the need for a Savior, a Cross. We CANNOT and ARE NOT what God intends and commands. That NO ONE is righteous..... NO ONE is good..... every other religion on the planet is fundamentally wrong because we cannot clean up our act and become what God mandates: absolutely perfect, absolutely holy, absolutely loving.... if anyone CLAIMS to be without sin (to always hit the mark), well.... to be blunt..... they LIE and DECEIVE themselves (but no one else - least of all God!). We are SINNERS! We MISS THE MARK! We are FALLEN! We need SALVATION, MERCY, JUSTIFICATION... IF we look to the LAW as the tool of salvation, ALL that happens is that we get slapped down - completely, totally, every time. (Note: THIS is why people want to water down the law SO MUCH as to make it unrecognizable, insulting God and the Law - all to make it so that we can boast "but I keep the Law - I don't need no God, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - I got ME!!!" All as an enemy of Christ, a destroyer of the Gospel, all in an attempt to substitute the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism in place of Christianity - to promote THEIR soteriology which is "Self saves self although because of the TIME and HELP which God provides"). the theological use is to ask ourselves, "Am I all that God commands?" The only reasonable answer is: "NO!" And thus to flee to the mercy seat of God, the heart of God..... He who says "Yes" the Bible specifically says is a "fool" and is a "liar"


BOTH of these functions continue after justification..... we are STILL called to be absolutely, divinely PERFECT, we are still called to live civilly in society; indeed Christians have unique commands: to love EXACTLY as Christ did, to LIVE exactly as Christ did, to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people, etc. The Law doesn't disappear or get watered down to nothing (as some Christians insist) when we are justified... but it also has nothing to do with our justification just because we are justified.





The GOSPEL


What is the Gospel?

It is the heart of God, the mercy of God, what God has done FOR us, the gifts from God, the promises of God - all in view of CHRIST alone: the Cross, the Blood, the Empty Tomb.


Galatians 2:21, "If justification were through the Law then Christ died for no purpose."

Philippians 3:9, "Not because of our works, lest anyone can boast."

Romans 3:20, "No human being will be justified in God's sight by works of the Law."

First John 4:10, "Not that we love God but rather that He loves us."

First John 4:8, "God is love."

John 3:16, "For God so (unconditionally) love the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believes in Him will not perish but has everlasting life."

Romans 5:8, "God shows His love for us in that while we were enemies of God, Christ died for us."

First John 2:2, "Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins."

Titus 3:5, "God saves us not because of our deeds of righteousness but rather in view of His own mercy."

Romans 6:23, "The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus."

Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing but rather it is the free gift of God."

John 3:36, "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life."



This Gospel also applies to our lives as Christians....

Hebrews 13:5, "I will never leave you or forsake you."

First John 1:9, "If we confess our sins, God is faithful to His promise and will forgive our sins."

.... and so VERY much more.... all entirely because of the heart of God, the unconditional love of God, the mercy of God.... in view of the Lamb, the Blood, the Cross, the Christ, the Savior.




The Law does not negate or cancel or diminish the Gospel.... nor does the Gospel negate, cancel or diminish the Law... both are real, both are true, both stand in ALL their force and truth... and they can only accomplish their task if we allow them to stand FULLY - not watering them down, not confusing them, not entangling them, not misapplying them. A Christian (one who is justified, narrow - by Christ ALONE, by the SAVIOR, via the Cross, because of the Gospel!) is still called to absolute, total, divine perfection, holiness, obedience, love... still called to always, perfectly HIT THE MARK, right on, every time, 24/7, as much as God does, in our nature, our being, our attitude, our thoughts, our words, our deeds: both for civil reasons AND so that we realize we fail and need Gods' mercy. We strive forward because we love God and because this is the will of God..... but we never fully attain it, we miss the mark, we fall short more often and more greatly than we realize. And so, thanks be to God, the Gospel remains (FULLY, completely, in all its' power and force and beauty): God is merciful, God forgives, because of the Lamb, because of the Cross, because of the Blood, because of His unconditional love, because of His Son, because there is the SAVIOR - Jesus Christ.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

Law is law. It always accuses and shows us our sin. It doesn't matter which type of law it is.

It does indeed show our sin.but it cant show sin that is buried in the death of the lord jesus and washed in his blood.that has been removed.

 

[Alithis]

The Holy Spirit convicts. He never accuses, even though He uses the Word, law. The Word can be sharp, but if He does it, it's only to set you free and restore.
If you feel accused it's because the devil can use the Word too.

Also he ,the holy spirit.convicts for the purpose of bringing us to repentance that we might be freed from both the guilt of sin
AND the control of it and the fruit of it (being death) and the practice of it which renews the guilt of it.
So if a person is feeling uncomfortable and convicted..it is because there is sin they are practicing to be convicted of.
We cannot be convicted for innocence.

 

[Lamb]

It does indeed show our sin.but it cant show sin that is buried in the death of the lord jesus and washed in his blood.that has been removed.

I've stated before I believe that we all sin against God according to the First Commandment. We make ourselves into our own gods daily just as Adam & Eve did. We make other people into gods. We make money into gods. If we aren't fully trusting God (which I have YET to see anyone do) then we trust in something else and aren't obeying the first commandment.

 

[Alithis]

I've stated before I believe that we all sin against God according to the First Commandment. We make ourselves into our own gods daily just as Adam & Eve did. We make other people into gods. We make money into gods. If we aren't fully trusting God (which I have YET to see anyone do) then we trust in something else and aren't obeying the first commandment.

that's an odd opinion.. the scriptures say "we die daily ..' not make ourselves gods daily -the very opposite of what your saying .
the scriptures state we are made a new creation in christ Jesus
the scriptures state that he became sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ jesus

a certain denomination teaches that we remain sinners

the scriptures teach that we become a new creature

one of these two is telling fibs ...

 

[Josiah]

It does indeed show our sin.but it cant show sin that is buried in the death of the lord jesus and washed in his blood.that has been removed.

Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven. Our sins are washed away because of Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide, but that doesn't make us sinless, it makes us forgiven.

 

[Josiah]

a certain denomination teaches that we remain sinners

the scriptures teach that we become a new creature

one of these two is telling fibs ...

If there's a conflict, you can prove it by providing those full names of ten (I'm ONLY asking for just TEN) living Christians who are perfect just as and to the same extent that God is perfect, holy just as and to the same extent that God is holy, loving just as and to the same extent that God is loving, who's attitude and life are exactly as Christ... I know you've claimed such for yourself but so far, you've refused to document that or even just get your wife to state such for you. You've yet to produce anything that documents that Scripture is wrong when it states that NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one. Wrong when it says that "For all fall short." That it is wrong when it says, "If anyone claims to be without sin, he lies and deceives only himself."

Now, IF you taught that IN CHRIST we are both always saint AND sinner - I'd agree with that, but you always seem to deny the sinner part - and yet persistently refuse to show why Scripture is wrong about that and persistently refuse to give the names of even just ten (I've only asked for just TEN) of living Christians who never sin. Frankly, I think you are fibbing about this...... NOT that Scripture is wrong but that you are. Indeed, if you are right and some are walking around who are PERFECT, who NEVER sin in nature or being, in attitude and mine, in thought or word or deed, in thoughts/words/deeds done or left undone - then Christianity is wrong and your support for the soteriology of Bhatki Hinduism and modern Judaism and Islam are right: we don 't need a Savior, we just need enough time and help to get ourselves to where we don't sin - which you insist is what happens (you just refuse to give even one full name of ANYONE on the planet Earth - among 7.3 BILLION people - who are such).



Pax CHRISTI




- Josiah (who is no better than SAINT PAUL who referred to himself as the "CHIEF of sinners")






.

 

[TurtleHare]

What's this? A parodox within the bible? Oh the horror! :tantrum: If you look hard enough, Alithis you'll see more than one parodox in the bible and they are things that the human brain questions because mathematically it doesn't add up but both things can be true. You know, kinda like Jesus is fully man and fully God.

 

[Lamb]

that's an odd opinion.. the scriptures say "we die daily ..' not make ourselves gods daily -the very opposite of what your saying .
the scriptures state we are made a new creation in christ Jesus
the scriptures state that he became sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Christ jesus

a certain denomination teaches that we remain sinners

the scriptures teach that we become a new creature

one of these two is telling fibs ...

Do you take only portions of scripture to be truth or do you take it all and accept it? Scriptures teach both that we are simultaneously saint and sinner.

 

[Alithis]

Do you take only portions of scripture to be truth or do you take it all and accept it? Scriptures teach both that we are simultaneously saint and sinner.

where ?