Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Lamb]

No one denies we are being sanctified BY GOD...but where is the proof that it is finished while still on earth? It's not which is why we wait for the resurrection and our new bodies when Christ returns.

God will indeed bring us to the point where we will be "sealed". Sealed in the sense that it is our character to reflect Him perfectly henceforth via the indwelling fully of the Holy Spirit. We are the temple of God. At the heart of our temple is the TEN written centering our foundation upon which we as believers can stand the test of time, before God and man.

Ezekiel 36:26 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

It is in our Temple that the Holy Spirit dwells fully. Yeshua's prayer emphasize this on the night before His crucifixion,

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you and shall be in you".

Just as a child belongs to his/her parents fully, so also does the believer belong fully to God. If the believer is all in, heart, mind, and soul, to live godly, taking God's advice on how, they will grow up in Him. The Lord knowing this, while they are children, covers their mistakes, as if they never were, and declares them holy to Him. They are perfect in their moments, like a baby learning to walk, even if it only a few steps. Our heavenly Father cheers us on to walk further and further with Him.

You asked for evidence of the new life in a believer, perfect. The one who has the Spirit of God dwelling within as a well springing up into everlasting life is finding a new purpose in life that is independent of the world's pleasures. He does not need to run after the theatre and the opera and the dance and the cards and the other pleasures as they are no longer seen as a treasure/pleasure worth chasing. He gives these things up, not so much because he thinks they are wrong, as because he has something so much better. He loses all taste for them. He has found the pearl of great price. It is not the end that is perfect, it is the right direction. Perfect is not the finished product.

In Matthew 5:48 Yeshua gives us a command: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” This command for us to be perfect just as God is perfect seems like a total impossibility to us because Satan has instilled in our minds that we can never achieve such perfection. Yet, Yeshua said it because the "perfect" is in the doing that moment. The more moments you have of being in His perfect Will, the more perfect you are. At what point does a person reach perfection? When they are constantly 'perfect" in all their ways/ unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Only those who believe it is not possible, will find excuses not to try.

Jude 24 “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..."

Even the excuse, the devil made me do it is taken away.

2 Thessalonians 3:3: “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.”

Corinthians 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

So with that get established with God, where you can be solid in your walk with Him, not prone to stumbling, or veering left or right from the path God has put you on. May you be settled in your own heart and mind, that not only can it be done, but that through Yeshua you will do it via His Holy Spirit within you.

1 Peter 5:10 “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, MAKE YOU PERFECT, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

 

[Lamb]

And now, enough sanctification and back to JUSTIFICATION which is what the thread is about. This is why the thread is 49 pages long because there is seems to be too much confusion on how to properly distinguish between the two. Not divide, let's not go there. But distinguish.

 

[Josiah]

And now, enough sanctification and back to JUSTIFICATION which is what the thread is about. This is why the thread is 49 pages long because there is seems to be too much confusion on how to properly distinguish between the two. Not divide, let's not go there. But distinguish.

In order to destroy the Gospel, to destroy the point that Jesus is the SAVIOR, it is essential to blend, entangle, confuse Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God (as well as enormously watering down BOTH Law and Gospel).

The Law must be weakened so that it's little more than "Goosh, it would be just swell if now and then you'd TRY to be nice!" And the Gospel twisted to be little more than "God helps those who help themselves...... Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE but you save yourself by what you do...... grace is like the gas God puts in your tank so that you have all the energy you need to get yourself where you need to get" (all verbatim quotes from our Catholic teachers). Then these two things can be twisted together to form: "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do - and God gives you sufficient TIME and HELP to save yourself." (Another verbatim quote from our Catholic teachers). Self looks in the mirror to self as the Savior. Self looks to the Law for justification.

This, of course, is the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism (although all those credit God's HELP more than Catholics do). Sadly, tragically, this is occasionally (rarely, thank God!) in modern American "Evangelicalism" too (even more radically than among many Catholics) - it's just these "Evangelicals" are apt to credit the Holy Spirit with the HELP rather than Christ (as Catholics do) or just generically "God" as Jews, Muslims and Bhakti Hindu's, but it's the identical soteriology.

That opposition to Law and Gospel is quite in sharp contrast to that of Christianity (which is based on the point that we need a divine SAVIOR, not a helper, not a possibility-maker), Christianity that points to the Cross, the Blood, MERCY, the Gospel for justification (narrow). Among those who reject this central Christian teaching, they must oppose both Law and Gospel..... water both down to nothing..... and entangle them completely - all to engrandize self and belittle Christ, to point instead to the modern Jewish, Muslim, Bhatki Hindu view that self eventually saves self by becoming obedient (which is done by God supplying the necessary help and time for us to accomplish that).


Understand?



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah




.

 

[visionary]

No one denies we are being sanctified BY GOD...but where is the proof that it is finished while still on earth? It's not which is why we wait for the resurrection and our new bodies when Christ returns.

Sanctification

John 17:17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your Word is Truth.


The text before us contains perhaps the most precious, comforting and encouraging of all words for the believer. These words are a prayer. Surely the prayer of any saint of God on our behalf is encouraging, and surely a prayer for sanctification is even more encouraging. But this prayer is not merely from another brother or sister in the faith. The words before us are the very words of Yeshua, the Eternal Begotten Jewish Son of the Father, who became flesh for our redemption. The prayer before us is the prayer of Yeshua, the High Priest in the Heavenly Temple before His Father for His people.

Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God.

Romans 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Sanctification Complete
1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Josiah]

Sanctification is an act of separation from that which is evil, and of dedication unto God.

I agree. Thus it has no place in this thread and is hijacking.


Those who insist on entangling, confusing, blending Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and Christ do so because they oppose both Law and Gospel and need to belittle Christ and engrandize self. In order to destroy the Gospel, to destroy the point that Jesus is the Savior, it is essential to blend, entangle, confuse Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God (as well as enormously watering down BOTH Law and Gospel). The Law must be weakened so that it's little more than "Goosh, it would be just swell if now and then you'd TRY to be nice!" And the Gospel twisted to be little more than "God helps those who help themselves...... Jesus makes salvation POSSIBLE but you save yourself by what you do...... grace is like the gas God puts in your tank so that you have all the energy you need to get yourself where you need to get" (all verbatim quotes from our Catholic teachers). Then these two things can be twisted together to form: "Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it by what you do - and God gives you sufficient TIME and HELP to save yourself." (Another verbatim quote from our Catholic teachers). Self looks in the mirror to self as the Savior. Self looks to the Law for justification. This, of course, is the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism (although all those credit God's HELP more than Catholics do). Sadly, tragically, this is occasionally (rarely, thank God!) in modern American "Evangelicalism" too (even more radically than among many Catholics) - it's just these "Evangelicals" are apt to credit the Holy Spirit with the HELP rather than Christ (as Catholics do) or just generically "God" as Jews, Muslims and Bhakti Hindu's, but it's the identical soteriology - quite in sharp contrast to that of Christianity (which is based on the point that we need a divine SAVIOR, not a helper, not a possibility-maker), Christianity that points to the Cross, the Blood, MERCY, the Gospel for justification (narrow). Among those who reject this central Christian teaching, they must oppose both Law and Gospel..... water both down to nothing..... and entangle them completely - all to engrandize self and belittle Christ, to point instead to the modern Jewish, Muslim, Bhatki Hindu view that self eventually saves self by becoming obedient (which is done by God supplying the necessary help and time for us to accomplish that).



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

or because both are needed, personally i dont split hairs seems to me that is how confusion happens

 

[Josiah]

or because both are needed

I completely disagree.

Your insistence that in justification (narrow) BOTH Jesus and self are the cause mandates that Jesus is only (at most) PART Savior (I wish those who believe that would be "up front" about that and stop insisting that Jesus is THE Savior when they denounce, mock, reject and oppose that).

I reject that Jesus did what He could (perhaps) to be the Savior but.... pur Jesus.... He failed. So we have to come to the rescue and do what Jesus was unable to do - do the really critical, essential part - do the part that actually means we enter heaven (and thus... effectively.... we aren't the PART Savior, we ARE the Savior)... by obeying God, being perfect, hitting the mark, keeping all the divine mandates. So, what DID Jesus accomplish? Certainly not salvation since you insist that BOTH Jesus' work AND our work are mandated in justification (narrow), that TOGETHER, we get the job done (maybe).

I think confusion happens when self and Christ are so entangled, mixed up, confused, blended in this topic so that Jesus is no longer the Savior, the Bible is not correct when it says we all fail, we all fall short, we all miss the mark, we cannot save ourselves, when Christ and the Gospel and the Law are so belittled, so watered down as to be irrelevant and instead, the justification view of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism are promoted: God + Self work together as partners, God makes it POSSIBLE and gives us the TIME and HELP we need, but God is NOT the Savior - we are. I think that's a repudiation of Christianity, an insult to Christ, and opposition to both Law and Gospel.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

What I am saying is that you want to seperate obedience from salvation but yet once saved obedience is one of the things that Christt wants so no they should not be seperated

 

[Josiah]

you want to seperate obedience from salvation

Yes, I do. Because it's NOT my obedience that results in my justification - it's CHRIST'S obedience, CHRIST'S love, CHRIST's merits, CHRIST'S righteousness, CHRIST'S blood, CHRIST'S mercy, CHRIST'S life, CHRIST'S death, CHRIST'S resurrection. Because I'm a Christian and thus believe that Jesus is the Savior (in the sense of narrow justification - the sole, exclusive, singular, only, unique issue of this thread).

The hatred and opposition to Law and Gospel, to the affirmation that Jesus is the Savior (and thus NOT self, NOT me, NOT you, NOT now, NOT ever, NOT wholly, NOT partly, NOT a bit) - the hatred of that, the repudiation of that which we have seen repeatedly and constantly here at CH.... this insistence that Jesus is insuffient, a failure... that He is (at best, at most) PART Savior or (more often) only a HELPER or POSSIBILITY MAKER... that IS something I'm rejecting. Why? Because I believe Jesus is the Savior. IS. THE (one, only, singular, exclusive, sufficient) SAVIOR (not helper, not possibility-maker) because ALL of us (everyone of us!) is a sinner, a failure, missing the mark, falling short and NEEDS mercy, NEEDS forgiveness, NEEDS the Cross, NEEDS the Blood, NEEDS the Christ, NEEDS the Savior.

yet once saved

Once saved, we're speaking of sanctification. What is the singular, exclusive, sole, only, unique issue of this thread? What is the first word in the title of the thread? What word do you see? Is it Sanctification (the life of the justified, what CHRISTIANS - the saved - are called to do)? Or is it something ELSE?

Yes, IF this thread were about what the JUSTIFIED are called to do.... IF it were about that different, other subject..... IF this were about a whole other enchilada.... THEN we could talk about that OTHER issue (in another thread; it's actually hijacking to do so here).


BUT (and this is critical, Bill) ... why do some SO want to mix up the two, confuse the two, BLEND and MERGE the two, entangle the two different subjects? WHY, Bill? Why this obsession with merging them, blending them, comengling them, entangling them? So as to destroy Christianity, to oppose Law and Gospel, to belittle Christ and engrandize self, to denounce the Christian idea that we all desperately NEED a Savior and that God as supplied THE Savior (not PART Savior, not HELPER, not POSSIBILITY-MAKER).... to replace the soteriology of Christianity with that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism: namely, that we save ourselves by tapping into the HELP and TIME that God provides, becoming sufficiently obedient and holy (and thus needing no Gospel, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy). They BLEND these... MERGE them in order to destroy them. This is seen is how much they water-down BOTH Law and Gospel.... Law becomes little more than, "Golly, it would be just swell if you occasionally would TRY to be nice and sorta in a small sense obey a FEW of the things I have commanded, if you would." And the Gospel becomes little more than "God helps those who help themselves.... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it." Bill - there is a REASON some need to confuse the two issues, blend and merge them: it order to make Christ largely irrelevant and not really the Savior.... to engrandize and glorify self who ultimately is the reason self gets to heaven. THAT'S WHY IT MATTERS. Follow me, Bill?



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah




.

 

[psalms 91]

I dont disagree with you but I also know thatto be a follower of Christ obedience is key, I do follow you but I seee a danger in doing things this way and that danger is that people never come under the leading of Christ nand continue to do their opwn thing

 

[Josiah]

Yes, I do. Because it's NOT my obedience that results in my justification - it's CHRIST'S obedience, CHRIST'S love, CHRIST's merits, CHRIST'S righteousness, CHRIST'S blood, CHRIST'S mercy, CHRIST'S life, CHRIST'S death, CHRIST'S resurrection. Because I'm a Christian and thus believe that Jesus is the Savior (in the sense of narrow justification - the sole, exclusive, singular, only, unique issue of this thread).


The hatred and opposition to Law and Gospel, to the affirmation that Jesus is the Savior (and thus NOT self, NOT me, NOT you, NOT now, NOT ever, NOT wholly, NOT partly, NOT a bit) - the hatred of that, the repudiation of that which we have seen repeatedly and constantly here at CH
.... this insistence that Jesus is insuffient, a failure... that He is (at best, at most) PART Savior or (more often) only a HELPER or POSSIBILITY MAKER... that IS something I'm rejecting. Why? Because I believe Jesus is the Savior. IS. THE (one, only, singular, exclusive, sufficient) SAVIOR (not helper, not possibility-maker) because ALL of us (everyone of us!) is a sinner, a failure, missing the mark, falling short and NEEDS mercy, NEEDS forgiveness, NEEDS the Cross, NEEDS the Blood, NEEDS the Christ, NEEDS the Savior.




Once saved, we're speaking of sanctification. What is the singular, exclusive, sole, only, unique issue of this thread? What is the first word in the title of the thread? What word do you see? Is it Sanctification (the life of the justified, what CHRISTIANS - the saved - are called to do)? Or is it something ELSE?

Yes, IF this thread were about what the JUSTIFIED are called to do.... IF it were about that different, other subject..... IF this were about a whole other enchilada.... THEN we could talk about that OTHER issue (in another thread; it's actually hijacking to do so here).



BUT (and this is critical, Bill) ... why do some SO want to mix up the two, confuse the two, BLEND and MERGE the two, entangle the two different subjects? WHY, Bill? Why this obsession with merging them, blending them, comengling them, entangling them? So as to destroy Christianity, to oppose Law and Gospel, to belittle Christ and engrandize self, to denounce the Christian idea that we all desperately NEED a Savior and that God as supplied THE Savior (not PART Savior, not HELPER, not POSSIBILITY-MAKER).... to replace the soteriology of Christianity with that of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism: namely, that we save ourselves by tapping into the HELP and TIME that God provides, becoming sufficiently obedient and holy (and thus needing no Gospel, no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy). They BLEND these... MERGE them in order to destroy them. This is seen is how much they water-down BOTH Law and Gospel.... Law becomes little more than, "Golly, it would be just swell if you occasionally would TRY to be nice and sorta in a small sense obey a FEW of the things I have commanded, if you would." And the Gospel becomes little more than "God helps those who help themselves.... Jesus opened the gate to heaven but you gotta get yourself through it." Bill - there is a REASON some need to confuse the two issues, blend and merge them: it order to make Christ largely irrelevant and not really the Savior.... to engrandize and glorify self who ultimately is the reason self gets to heaven. THAT'S WHY IT MATTERS. Follow me, Bill?



Pax CHRISTI



.

I dont disagree with you but I also know thatto be a follower of Christ obedience is key

Then you agree that when Catholics, Mormons and some "Evangelicals" INSIST on merging, blending, entangling, confusing the two different issues - they oppose Christ, they reject the Christian view of justification and replace it essentially with the modern Jewish, Islamic and Bhakti Hindu view. And we must reject that! We must proclaim and defend that Christ is the Savior - NOT ME, NOT YOU - we are the ones (all of us) who are sinners, disobedient, falling short, missing the mark - WE ALL are the ones who NEED the Savior, not just sufficient time and help so that we can "hit the mark" and fulfill the Law. As Scripture says, "if justification were a matter of our keeping the Law, then Christ died for no purpose."



Pax CHRISTI ....


http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?1900-LAW-and-GOSPEL


- Josiah



.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I am beginning to wonder how many posts this thread will get. Surely there's a limit to the number of times one can state the same thing to one's interlocutor.

:smashfreakb:

 

[Josiah]

I am beginning to wonder how many posts this thread will get.

Already, a lot. But there's no end to those who must belittle Christ.... and who are compelled to defend Him and the Gospel of Christ as THE Savior (not part savior.... not helper.... not possibility-maker). The world's population is divided on this issue of who is the Savior: Christ (via the Gospel) or Self (via the Law). It's not going to end with this thread.

Thank you for your numerous contributions.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Already, a lot. But there's no end to those who must belittle Christ ...

Why do you write such things. Isn't it possible that those who disagree with your views do so in good faith with good reasons that do not belittle the Lord or anybody else?

 

[Josiah]

Why do you write such things. Isn't it possible that those who disagree with your views do so in good faith with good reasons that do not belittle the Lord or anybody else?

I never remotely indicated that those who are enemies of the Gospel are not sincere or presenting "in good faith" or even "for good reasons." I respect the integrity of Jews, Muslims, Bhatki Hindus - I just disagree with their view of justification.

I suppose if one sees Christ as small and rather irrelevant, yes, you're right, from THEIR perspective, they are not "belittling" Him - they are just relating a small Christ - one who might be (at best, at most), perhaps, PART Savior or more likely just a helper or possibility maker or maybe just an anthropomorphism of divine help; you're probably right, they aren't trying to make Christ seem smaller than He is, only as small as they view that He is. Valid point. Same with those who see self as quite large, quite good and able and obedient and needless of mercy or saving: that's just how they "see" self. True enough. I didn't mean to imply anything insincere. Just wrong.



Back to the discussion.....



.

 

[TurtleHare]

I dont disagree with you but I also know thatto be a follower of Christ obedience is key, I do follow you but I seee a danger in doing things this way and that danger is that people never come under the leading of Christ nand continue to do their opwn thing

Why do you keep bringing that up when it's not the topic of the thread? I just don't get why the push about sanctification when Josiah is trying to talk Justification because isn't that rude?

 

[visionary]

As a mother, I have two girls. One was the one who always said she loved me, hugged me, and was always trying to get my attention. The other daughter, saw the need to help around the house, cook, clean, and was always there for me. The user was the clinging one. The giver was the one who was obedient helpful and she grew up to be a wonderful worker, mother, and wife. The clingy one got into trouble, in and out of jail, no goals, no sense of self worth, and had a hard time.

Who really knew the meaning of love? Who valued it and showed honor and respect? Obedience is the way we show God it is Him we love.

 

[Lamb]

As a mother, I have two girls. One was the one who always said she loved me, hugged me, and was always trying to get my attention. The other daughter, saw the need to help around the house, cook, clean, and was always there for me. The user was the clinging one. The giver was the one who was obedient helpful and she grew up to be a wonderful worker, mother, and wife. The clingy one got into trouble, in and out of jail, no goals, no sense of self worth, and had a hard time.

Who really knew the meaning of love? Who valued it and showed honor and respect? Obedience is the way we show God it is Him we love.

What I like about this story is that the obedient child didn't become MORE of a child to the parent. The obedient child didn't earn her way someplace, she was already the child. She didn't do things out of fear of being cast out. This is really nice in showing living life because of what a parent has done, not to gain anything. Thank you

 

[Josiah]

As a mother, I have two girls. One was the one who always said she loved me, hugged me, and was always trying to get my attention. The other daughter, saw the need to help around the house, cook, clean, and was always there for me. The user was the clinging one. The giver was the one who was obedient helpful and she grew up to be a wonderful worker, mother, and wife. The clingy one got into trouble, in and out of jail, no goals, no sense of self worth, and had a hard time.

Did these two girls become alive, become girls, become your daughter by hugging or helping you? OR did these two - ALREADY, FULLY living, female daughters - then hug and help ?

Is your story here one about HOW TO BECOME a female child - or is it about what one ALREADY a beloved children should do ?



If you read the title of this thread..... if you read the opening post..... you'll notice that the singular, exclusive, sole, unique, only issue is JUSTIFICATION (there's no mention whatsoever, not so much as a hint, about sanctification/discipleship/living as the justified). Justification concerns how our relationship to God changes, how we become adopted as His child (becoming His son or daughter), what most mean by "saved." That's the only, sole, exclusive, singular, unique topic of this thread (thus, the first word of the thread title). Over and over, several here have reminded folks of the topic here. The topic here is not - not - about sanctification, discipleship, the life of the JUSTIFIED, how CHRISTIANS ought to live. Not. Read the next paragraph...

So WHY is it that when it is stated "Jesus is the Savior.... Jesus is the sole cause and reason for justification...... sola gratia/solus Christus/sola fide.... why is it some Catholics, Mormons and modern "Evangelicals" get so angry, so upset and immediately protest: "WE gotta this..... We gotta that... WE must to jump through these hoops in justification...... " WHY? Why this immediate, passionate protest and opposition to the Law, this enormous watering down of the Law? Why this protest and opposition to the Gospel this enormous watering down of the Gospel in justification? Why do some get SO "unglued" when it is professed that JESUS is the Savior (justification, narrow) NOT self? Why do some Catholics, Mormons and modern "Evangelicals" get SO upset over that and (rather than affirming it) immediately jump in insisting that actually, WE GOTTA do a whole bunch of things, insisting that justification is NOT a matter of Gospel but of OUR obeying the Law? WHY?

Because they reject, oppose and denounce both Law and Gospel... and the chief article of Christianity: that JESUS is THE Savior - the one and only and exclusive and all-sufficient SAVIOR (in this sense of justification, narrow). NOT me. NOT you. Not now, not ever. Not fully, not partly. It's NOT a matter of ME saving ME by obeying the Law, jumping through 874 "hoops". It's NOT a matter of MY obedience, MY perfection, MY holiness, MY works, MY life, MY anything - because 1) I'M not the Savior (the job is taken) 2) I CANNOT keep the Law and obey all 613 commandments perfectly - even if I get extras time and help from God. They immediately, constantly, at every opportunity protest that - and put in all their "You gotta.... YOU must..... YOU need to....." rendering Christ largely irrelevant, small, not THE Savior but maybe (at most) PART Savior or less than that, just the divine HELPER. But they promote the Jewish, Muslim and Bhatki Hindu view that while God makes salvation POSSIBLE and God provides us with sufficient TIME and HELP, nonetheless, we save ourselves by obeying the Law. This is why they can go on and on and on and on with the subject of JUSTIFICATION and never even mention Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness.... why they get SO upset over the claim that JESUS is the Savior (not self).... why they insist on watering down Law and Gospel to nothingness.... they are promoting a different soteriology - the one of Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism (although I doubt they realize it).



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[TurtleHare]

Hey, folks, we got it that sanctification follows justification so it doesn't need to be thrown back again and again and again here so let's talk about Justification because wow, if we went through and eliminated the posts that are about sanctification guess how many we'd actually left here in the thread? Who's yer Savior is the question of the day in this when talking about Justification and that's a serious issue concerning faith because are you putting your faith in Jesus to be justified so you have eternal life or are you putting your faith into you which God doesn't want and that goes against the first commandment of having other gods before Him.