Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[visionary]

I think the cornerstone is being tripped over too many times because it is at the center of it all. Acceptance goes a long way to moving on in faith toward not just His justification but His sanctification. It is quite clear from these and other passages that the law declares us to be sinners in need of God's justification.

 

[Josiah]

Hey, folks, we got it that sanctification follows justification so it doesn't need to be thrown back again and again and again here so let's talk about Justification because wow, if we went through and eliminated the posts that are about sanctification guess how many we'd actually left here in the thread? Who's yer Savior is the question of the day in this when talking about Justification and that's a serious issue concerning faith because are you putting your faith in Jesus to be justified so you have eternal life or are you putting your faith into you which God doesn't want and that goes against the first commandment of having other gods before Him.

I agree.... but I don't think it's ignorance that drives this constant attack on the Gospel (and the Law, btw).... What we see is that in nearly any thread remotely related to the Gospel, to JESUS being THE Savior - there is this attack: persistent, focused, constant, passionate. There is this intervention, this screaming: YOU gotta this! YOU gotta that! You must do these! YOU gotta sorta and least wanna obey the (watered-down-to-nothing) Law! They may not exactly protest the Gospel, they just water it down to next to nothing (typically, the Jewish/Muslim/Hindu view of it) and INTERTWINE, entangle, confuse, mix, blend, merge the Gospel with the Law - adding the Law. WHY? You gotta ask WHY this protest to "Jesus is the Savior - thus, not me?"

I think it's very evident - and very dangerous since it attacks and repudiates the very core of Christianity: We all NEED a Savior - and Jesus IS that Savior. We can't obey the Law, we can't save ourselves: Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism are WRONG.... WRONG! It's NOT a matter of God giving us enough TIME and HELP so that we obey the Law and thus are saved by self keeping the Law. The Law doesn't save (it condemns!)... we cannot obey the Law (it shows us how sinful, fallen we are - how we MISS the mark, NOT hit the mark). They entangle, merge, blend the Law with the Gospel to destroy the Gospel - and essentially look to the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Hinduism.... looking in the mirror.... looking to the Law..... and NEITHER can save/justify. Not now, not ever. Not fully, not a bit.



Pax Christi



- Josiah

 

[visionary]

I agree.... but I don't think it's ignorance that drives this constant attack on the Gospel (and the Law, btw).... What we see is that in nearly any thread remotely related to the Gospel, to JESUS being THE Savior - there is this attack: persistent, focused, constant, passionate. There is this intervention, this screaming: YOU gotta this! YOU gotta that! You must do these! YOU gotta sorta and least wanna obey the (watered-down-to-nothing) Law! They may not exactly protest the Gospel, they just water it down to next to nothing (typically, the Jewish/Muslim/Hindu view of it) and INTERTWINE, entangle, confuse, mix, blend, merge the Gospel with the Law - adding the Law. WHY? You gotta ask WHY this protest to "Jesus is the Savior - thus, not me?" I think it's very evident - and very dangerous since it attacks and repudiates the very core of Christianity: We all NEED a Savior - and Jesus IS that Savior. We can't obey the Law, we can't save ourselves: Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism are WRONG.... WRONG! It's NOT a matter of God giving us enough TIME and HELP so that we obey the Law and thus are saved by self keeping the Law. The Law doesn't save (it condemns!)... we cannot obey the Law (it shows us how sinful, fallen we are - how we MISS the mark, NOT hit the mark).
Pax Christi
- Josiah

You know that in a court of law of this land, you can witness the judge lay out the laws violated, the crime committed, the charges laid, and the penalty for these sins. Then the judge can render a verdict. He can base his decision on the law and the mercy allowed within the law. Yeshua is always within the law allowed. His justification is found within the law allowed. His sanctification is found within the law allowed. Yeshua is never outside of the law. Law abiding for all eternity is our Jewish Messiah.

 

[Josiah]

You know that in a court of law of this land, you can witness the judge lay out the laws violated, the crime committed, the charges laid, and the penalty for these sins. Then the judge can render a verdict. He can base his decision on the law and the mercy allowed within the law. Yeshua is always within the law allowed. His justification is found within the law allowed. His sanctification is found within the law allowed. Yeshua is never outside of the law. Law abiding for all eternity is our Jewish Messiah.

1. In Justification, the Law is met by Jesus. We NEVER (even after justification - a topic we can't discuss in this thread) obey the Law. If LAW was the mode of justification, we'd all be going to hell. "NO ONE is righteous, no, not even one." "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "ALL fall short" "ALL miss the mark." SAINT Paul states that he (even after justification) is the "CHIEF" of sinners. Scripture says, "If justification were a matter of keeping the Law, then Christ died for no purpose." The Law has no mercy. The Law says, "Do or die." The Law says, "the punishment for falling short is death." Jesus took our sins on himself.... and took the just and mandated punishment on the Cross. The Law knows no mercy.


2. But in Christianity, we not only have Law, we have GOSPEL. We NEED the Gospel because we all DESERVE nothing but hell and eternal punishment and death. In Justification, what we need is not the Law (it will ONLY kill us), what we need is the GOSPEL, forgiveness, salvation/justification, mercy. Which is why Christianity calls on us to look to the Cross and not in the mirror...... to look not to the Law for life but to the Gospel. CHRIST does it - we don't, which is why CHRIST is the Savior and not you or me. It's NOT a matter of MY perfect obedience (because I'm a SINNER)! It's NOT a matter of MY life, MY works, MY sacrifice, MY perfection, MY holiness, MY anything because I'm not the Savior - Jesus is (job's taken). If I could do what the Law required, then Christ is a joke. "If justification were through our keeping the Law, then Christ died for no purpose" the Bible says (well, everything about Christ thus had no purpose). Now, even the Jews, Muslims and Hindus insist we cannot keep the Law and save ourselves by our own innate strength and ability but ONLY as GOD empowers.... and the Hindus insist we can't do it in one lifetime (Catholics in a sense agree), God needs to give us more time.... but the modern Jewish, Muslim and Bhatki Hindu view of justification is that the Law saves as we OBEY it - by tapping into the sufficient and available HELP and TIME that God provides. While some Catholics, Mormons and "Evangelicals" agree, IMO Christianity does not. In fact, that destroys the whole point and core and foundation of Christianity: We all CANNOT keep the Law (regardless of time or help), we desperately need a divine SAVIOR, and that SAVIOR is Christ (not me - now or ever, wholly or partly).



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

You know that in a court of law of this land, you can witness the judge lay out the laws violated, the crime committed, the charges laid, and the penalty for these sins. Then the judge can render a verdict. He can base his decision on the law and the mercy allowed within the law. Yeshua is always within the law allowed. His justification is found within the law allowed. His sanctification is found within the law allowed. Yeshua is never outside of the law. Law abiding for all eternity is our Jewish Messiah.

Exactly! Jesus fulfilled it perfectly because I could not and I am covered by His righteousness! Thanks be to God

 

[Josiah]

Exactly! Jesus fulfilled it perfectly because I could not and I am covered by His righteousness! Thanks be to God

Soli DEO Gloria!




.

 

[Josiah]

Justification.... Sanctification....

There are TWO DIFFERENT issue here: Justification and Sanctification (narrow sense, both).


Let me use this analogy:

1. FIRST: On a given date, I was born. I was GIVEN life as a free gift, unearned, undeserved, unmertited, not even requested or willed - the miracle, the wonderful, mysterious GIFT of life (we might agree that actually happened about 9 months earlier, but let's proceed). At that point, I became alive because I was GIVEN life. I became a human being - with all that means, biologically and spiritually, all that means in terms of God and me. GIFT. G.I.F.T. This purely, solely, only, exclusively by mercy since prior to that, I did NOTHING. I thought nothing. I willed nothing. I sought nothing. I desired nothing. NO good works. GIFT. G.I.F.T. Mercy. M.E.R.C.Y. On a specific date - I was removed from my mother (C-Section) - unbreathing, unconscience - I had NOTHING to do with it. NOTHING. N.O.T.H.I.N.G. Gift. Mercy. No merits. No works. No will. Nothing in or from me. GIFT. MERCY. Someone ELSE is to be credited. Entirely. Wholly. Completely. MONERGISTIC. Life is mine - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT. I am a human being, with all that means - by grace, by mercy, from God, as a GIFT.


In the same way, God saved me (what Protestants mean here is justification - narrow sense). God GAVE me spiritual life, God caused me to be born AGAIN, now not only with physical life but with spiritual life, now I am not only the child of my parents but a child of God. This CHANGES my relationship to God, as a result solely, only, exclusively because of God's mercy, grace, favor; solely, only, exclusively because of what CHRIST has done as THE Savior; solely, only, exclusively because God GAVE me the GIFT of faith in Christ as my Savior: Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. You know, the worst heresy ever, what Luther was excommunicated for, the view the RCC decided to split Christianity over. We believe this is MONERGISTIC, because CHRIST is the Savior - not me, not you, not the Pope, not Mary, not the RC Denomination. I'm NOT the Savior - in whole or in part - because the job is taken and He didn't blow it. What makes me a CHRISTIAN is that God's merciful, gracious GIFT of faith means I'm looking to CHRIST as THE Savior, not in the mirror as all my Catholic teachers taught me to do, many Catholic sermons taught me to do, as Catholics keep telling us we must do.


2. SECOND: Almost immediately after being born (well, maybe some months later, lol), my parents, my society and yes God called me to GROW. To mature. To become more loving, more caring, more righteous, more ethical, more serving. THIS is a process (unlike my conception). THIS is synergistic (unlike conception). GROWING to be more God like. GROWING in the directions that my parents, my society, my God call me: "Thou shalt be HOLY just as the Lord God is holy." "Thou shalt be PERFECT just as your Father in Heaven is perfect." "LOVE in exactly the same way as Christ loved us on the Cross." High callings! I'm not "there" yet. I'm still GROWING (well, I'd LIKE to say always growing..... sometimes I'm not, sometimes I even retreat). And I do so in large part because of God's EMPOWERING, not due to some innate homo sapiens ability.

In the same way, when God saves us (regenerates, justifies, gives life) there immediately follows the call to grow, mature, to become Christ-like, to love exactly as and to the same extent that God loves, to be holy/sinless/perfect just as and to the same extent that God is. And we are empowered to do so, not just called to do so. No one has arrived there yet but hopefully we're growing up, growing in that direction.


The first is justification (narrow) - regeneration, born again, what Protestants mean by "salvation."

The second is sanctification (narrow) - discipleship, Christian living, maturing, acting out our faith, becoming Christ-like.

A lot of confusion is eliminated when we realize these are two different things, not to be confused.

Yes..... in a few cases, the Bible also calls this "grace" but the CONTEXT tells us this is different, here it means "strength" or "empowering". It is still ours by mercy (we don't DESIRE anything from Him), but here it means strength. This growing up, this discipleship, this CHRISTIAN-walk is something a CHRISTIAN does, not something that makes one a Christian; it is the RESULT of justification not the cause. My being nice to my neighbor is not what causes me to have physical life, having physical life enables me to be nice to my neighbor. What I do as a growing, maturing, developing man is not what makes me a homo sapiens nor worthy of being given life.

 

[Josiah]

JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense)....


The Gospel of Luke tells us about Christ giving life to Lazarus....

“Now a certain man was ill, Lazarus of Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. So the sisters sent word to Jesus, saying, “Lord, he whom you love is ill.” Upon hearing this, Jesus said to his disciples, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.” The disciples said to him, “Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.” But Jesus had spoken of his death, so Jesus told them plainly, “Lazarus has died.” Now when Jesus came, he found that Lazarus had already been dead for four days. Now many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to console them concerning their brother. Jesus and his disciples then arrived. When Jesus saw Mary weeping, and the Jews who had come with her also weeping, he was deeply moved by loved. And he said, “Where have you laid him?” They said to him, “Lord, come and see.” Jesus wept. So the Jews said, “See how he loved him!” Then Jesus, deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. Jesus said, “Take away the stone.” So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes and he cried out with a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out.” The man who had died four days came out, his hands and feet still bound with linen strips, and his face wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, “Unbind him, and let him go.” And Lazarus was restored to his sisters.


.

There was a problem: Lazarus was DEAD. He wasn’t sick…. He wasn’t handicapped…. He wasn't stuggling with insufficient strength. He wasn’t simply in some trouble. Um, he was DEAD. The text says he had been dead for 4 days. The text says he was stinking to high heaven. Get it? Dead. Kinda of a desperate and helpless situation…. Keep that in mind here, because the word “salvation” means to be rescued from a desperate and helpless situation, rescued from something where we are going to be entirely passive. Well, Lazarus was DEAD so what he needed was salvation. And someone shows up! And not just anyone, it’s JESUS.

And Jesus is "greatly moved" (we're told 4 times) – not by Lazarus’ cries for help, not by dead Lazarus’ efforts to raise himself from the dead, not even by Lazarus’ good deeds performed there in the tomb. Nope. Lazarus couldn't do ANY of those things because, well, remember? He was DEAD. But JESUS (not Lazarus) is moved greatly by His boundless mercy, His unconditional love, His amazing grace. It's all about the heart of Jesus. ALL. EVERYTHING.

And Jesus performs a miracle! A pure, divine miracle of life! Regeneration. Born Again. Justification. Jesus gives LIFE to Lazarus! It’s entirely, totally Jesus’ doing (Lazarus didn’t contribute a thing, he didn't do a thing, he didn't decide a thing, he didn't will a thing, he didn't merit a thing..... he couldn’t..... because (remember?).... yup...... he was DEAD. Lazarus got saved. Jesus saved him. Lazarus was GIVEN life.... Jesus was the active one, Jesus did the life-giving. Jesus GAVE him life - and restored him to his sisters.


That's the story of every Christian.... we were spiritually DEAD. And Jesus GAVE us life.


JUSTIFICATION (narrow sense) Now I'm sure Lazarus eventually said "Thank you" and certainly Lazarus was now called to live as one alive and redeemed by Christ, but that's another subject for another day - that's what happens BECAUSE we have been justified/rengerated/born again - not the cause of it.


"You were DEAD in your trespasses and sins, but GOD who is overflowing with mercy toward us, solely because of His unconditional love for us, made us alive in Christ – by God’s grace you have been saved through faith in Christ – and God raised us up in Christ and caused us to seat in heavenly places. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And none of this is your own doing. All of this is the free gift of God and not the result of anything you did so that no one has reason to boast of himself.”



Sola Gratis - Solus Christus - Sola Fide. Soli DEO Gloria!!!!!



- Josiah




.

 

[Andrew]

Then there are those who say that Jesus' death presents us with this new gift so that WE can now obey that Law and achieve salvation...but again, that kicks Jesus' redemption to the curb and makes man the savior which isn't good news at all.

I started to agree with that until you said "and achieve salvation"
When renewed in faith its seemingly impossible to disobey these commandments.

You shall have no other gods before Me.
Got it! Indeed
You shall not make idols.
Got it! You bet
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Got it!
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
God it! Jesus is our rest
Honor your father and your mother.
Amen
You shall not murder.
Hallelujah
You shall not commit adultery.
Preach it!
You shall not steal.
Delivered!
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Got it
You shall not covet.
I shall not want!

Jesus sermon on the mound goes into detail of why these commandments are so very important to uphold for disobeying them will cause nothing but negative things. Being sanctified in faith will produce good works and keeping his commandments, for if you love him you will keep them, if you say you know him but dont keep his commandments you are a liar.
This is not a doing or an undoing it is simply fulfilling the old law through Jesus Christ and his NT law of loving thy neighbor.
PS I am not implying justification by works but the good works will follow as its evidence of faith.

 

[Albion]

But, DH, you appear to be saying that someone with saving faith will not disobey any of the Commandments, period. That's not the case. We still are susceptible to temptation and can sin. Maybe these are less serious sins than before we were saved, but committing any sin is to be guilty of all sin, as we know.

 

[Imalive]

Me is supposed to be dead anyway, so who does the working? If it's bad works its the flesh, if its good works its Jesus in you.

 

[Lamb]

I started to agree with that until you said "and achieve salvation"
When renewed in faith its seemingly impossible to disobey these commandments.

You shall have no other gods before Me.
Got it! Indeed
You shall not make idols.
Got it! You bet
You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.
Got it!
Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
God it! Jesus is our rest
Honor your father and your mother.
Amen
You shall not murder.
Hallelujah
You shall not commit adultery.
Preach it!
You shall not steal.
Delivered!
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
Got it
You shall not covet.
I shall not want!

Jesus sermon on the mound goes into detail of why these commandments are so very important to uphold for disobeying them will cause nothing but negative things. Being sanctified in faith will produce good works and keeping his commandments, for if you love him you will keep them, if you say you know him but dont keep his commandments you are a liar.
This is not a doing or an undoing it is simply fulfilling the old law through Jesus Christ and his NT law of loving thy neighbor.
PS I am not implying justification by works but the good works will follow as its evidence of faith.

The title of THIS thread is about Justification. Why are you posting about Sanctification then?

 

[Andrew]

The title of THIS thread is about Justification. Why are you posting about Sanctification then?

That last line was a note to a certain member. Sorry

 

[Andrew]

But, DH, you appear to be saying that someone with saving faith will not disobey any of the Commandments, period. That's not the case. We still are susceptible to temptation and can sin. Maybe these are less serious sins than before we were saved, but committing any sin is to be guilty of all sin, as we know.

I'm only outlining the importance of repentance is all. There is a difference in willingly disobeying and repenting "returning" to his peace from his convicted your heart. If you know it was wrong he ask that you repent as a means to reconcile.
Not trying to stir up anything, sometimes we need a good spanking from the lord, when you feel like you hurt him because the spirit convicts your heart, you can seep into the devils condemnation or repent and return.

 

[Lamb]

Since non-trinitarians are not supposed to post in this particular forum, perhaps this conversation is best to be continued in the thread I created earlier today in the World Religion forum.

http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4529-Justification-or-Sanctification-Differences

 

[MennoSota]

But, DH, you appear to be saying that someone with saving faith will not disobey any of the Commandments, period. That's not the case. We still are susceptible to temptation and can sin. Maybe these are less serious sins than before we were saved, but committing any sin is to be guilty of all sin, as we know.

Indeed. Peter, before the cross, kept telling Jesus how he would always follow, never falter. Peter was trying to please God by his own works.
It isn't until the resurrection and Jesus talk with him that we see a humbled Peter whom Jesus treats with amazing compassion.
We may arrogantly declare "got it" to God's commands, but like Peter, we don't have it at all. We desperately need Jesus.

 

[Josiah]

People who are alive will do things..... some good, some not. This has to do with SANCTIFICATION (which is not the topic of this thread)

People who are dead will not do things.... good or bad... cuz they're dead. Nothing a dead person can do will bring them to life. That has to do with JUSTIFICATION (which IS the topic of this thread)