Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[visionary]

I don't think it is, but others here persistently insist that it is. This thread is about JUSTIFICATION and some here not even MENTION (even in passing, just to mention it) Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness or even God. Just self. And how self is obedient, sinless, perfect.... ALL the in sole, singular context of JUSTIFICATION (not, not sanctification). Some - when they sense something (like me) believes that JESUS is the Savior (and thus not self), here it comes (over and over) a rebuttle and disagreement, STRESSING it's all about OUR being obedient, sinless, perfect, holy - getting ourselves to where we don't need no God, no Christ, no Blood, no Cross, no mercy (which is why they don't mention them) cuz we are now perfect. They protest any proclaimation of the Gospel by insisting that it's OUR keeping of the LAW that saves.
Pax CHRISTI
- Josiah

You are correct. We need to clear that this is a well rounded faith where you can not have one without the other. We can not be heavy on one and not equally just as heavy on the other side. It must be balance that both are necessary.

 

[Josiah]

Justification: by our works or by Christ's works?
If we died with Christ there's no difference anyway.
If you put the emphasis only on the texts that say we have to obey, you can fall into the trap of: I have to do this, I have to do that. If the emphasis is only on grace, the trap is that you can become lazy and lawless. Just stay in the middle of the road.

I respectfully disagree


Now, yes - if one chooses "B" (SELF saves self - although perhaps because God supplies sufficient TIME and HELP for us to accomplish that), then, IMO, they have abandoned Christianity entirely and reject the key, foundational, central point of Christianity: Jesus is THE Savior - not self: not now, not ever..... not wholly, not partly..... not at all, not a bit. EVERYTHING involved in salvation (in the sense of this thread: Justification, narrow) belongs to Christ - uniquely, exclusively, solely, only, alone - since JESUS is THE Savior (job's taken !!!!!!!!).


Those who reject this, who insists that self saves self by being obedient, righteous, holy (absolutely, perfectly, divinely, 24/7) of course are offended by the Gospel and so every time it's mentioned (as in this thread), they protest and insist "WE gotta..... WE must..... WE have ta......" because they reject the key, distinctive, defining, foundational point of Christianity: Jesus is THE Savior (just Jesus, only Jesus, wholly Jesus). This point angers them and they will jump in every time it's remotely mentioned - to protest, to destroy, to take the focus OFF Christ and place it ON self.... to insist we need to rely on SELF, we need to look to the mirror instead of to the Cross... which is why those offended by the Gospel will go on and on and on concerning the topic of justification (narrow) - the sole and only and exclusive topic of this thread - and perhaps never so much as even mention Christ (and almost certainly, never mention the Cross or the Blood or mercy..... just self).




Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.





Missy..... Now.... IF (big word there!)..... IF this thread were about sanctification (our lives as the justified, as those who have been justified)..... IF this thread were about that OTHER, that DIFFERENT topic.... IF that were the case (and of course, it's NOT), then as several here have posted several times, YES - the Law still applies: YES - we are to be absolutely, totally, divinely PERFECT, HOLY, LOVING just as and to the same extend that God Himself is such.... totally, 100%, 24/7..... in our nature, our attitudes, our thoughts, our words, our deeds.... we are to love all 7.3 billion people just as much as Christ loved as He died on the Cross...... we are to DIE for all our enemies..... we are to make disciples of all 7.3 billion people...... YES, YES, YES - the Law still applies! No one on the planet has suggested otherwise, no one in this thread has suggested otherwise, no one at CH has suggested otherwise..... we are to achieve ALL that ALL the time, perfectly and absolutely because the Law commands it and the Law does not vanish when we are justified. No one denies that. It's just that 1) That's not the topic here - save that for another day and thread! 2) Those who keep wanted to destroy the Gospel and hold only to the Law always seem to water-down the Law so much as to make it unrecognizable and insult God (and the Law) by reducing it to not much more than "try your best" or "mean well." Why? Why do they do this? To make the Law achievable and reasonable as the tool of justication - they CAN achieve all God commands and thus save self (given sufficient TIME and HELP). They do it to rebel against the Gospel, deny the Gospel (or at least the need for it), deny Christ as Savior, make self as BIG as possible and Christ as SMALL as possible, to eliminate the soteriology of Christianity and replace it with the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism (namely: we bring self to a state of worthiness by becoming all God commands - albeit only because of the sufficient TIME and HELP that God provides). The "middle ground" (the confusing, entangling of self and Christ) that you perhaps suggest is the destruction of Christianity, the denial of the SAVIOR, and refocusing of justification away from the Cross and onto self; it's the substitution of the soteriology of Bhatki Hinduism for that of Christianity, it destoys the faith. Understand my point? Understand why it is SO important?




Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah




.

 

[Josiah]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rykfAtgaxMY

 

[visionary]

 

[Josiah]

This thread is not about the uber-Calvinist view of OSAS. And yes, if you GIVE UP justification - you must have had it.... one cannot "endure" in something they don't have.


I reject the idea that justification is achieved NOT by Christ, NOT by the Cross, NOT by the Blood, NOT because of mercy, NOT because of God's unconditional love (all irrelevant, moot) BUT rather by MY enduring. I believe that if justification were achieved by us, then Christ died for no purpose.


But I suspect you are just confusing an extreme, radical view of a tiny minority of Calvinists for the issue of Justification (btw, those Calvinists would not disagree with a WORD I've posted!). And perhaps by a confusion of Justification (the sole, only, exclusive, unique, singular issue of this thread) with sanctification (a whole other enchilada) and/or simply a desire to diminish Christ and the Cross while engrandizing self.



http://christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?1900-LAW-and-GOSPEL



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

OSAS is one symptom of the radical dividing of gospel and obedience.

 

[Lamb]

Endure means remain until the end. Remain in what? Faith in the Savior and His forgiveness.

 

[psalms 91]

Endure means remain until the end. Remain in what? Faith in the Savior and His forgiveness.

And remain faithful to His word and His commands to us, remain faithful to Him

 

[MoreCoffee]

Fidelity to God means both belief of what God says and obedience to his commands.

 

[Josiah]

Fidelity to God means both belief of what God says and obedience to his commands.

Indeed (although fidelity doesn't save - Christ does). I'm not the one arguing that the Gospel and Law are moot, I'm not the one insisting that self saves self by what self does (whether or not God supplies sufficient TIME and HELP that we can tap). I'm the one saying that Jesus is the Savior - a theology that drives those who hate the Law and/or Gospel nuts, a theology that must be rebelled against by those who believe that self is the Savior, not Christ, a theology hated by those who believe self OBEYS all that God commands and thus DESERVES heaven (and thus don't need no God, no Christ, no mercy, no Gospel).



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

Endure means remain until the end. Remain in what? Faith in the Savior and His forgiveness.

.... and of course, we cannot REMAIN in something we don't have! So FIRST, we must HAVE it! This thread is about getting it. Those who need to belittle Christ, the Cross, the Blood, the Sacrifice, MERCY..... those who hate or oppose the Gospel..... need to get the focus OFF Christ and ONTO self, making SELF the issue, SELF the Savior, SELF the one who especially credit, SELF to pat self on the back.... to make Christ small and self big.... to make reasonable their looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross.

I don't at all deny that we must REMAIN in the faith IN CHRIST AS THE (one, only, exclusive, sole, singular, solitary) SAVIOR (not, not, not, not ME - not now, not ever....not partly, not wholly.... not a bit). We do that by God's grace. But what we are to DO as CHRISTIANS, as the JUSTIFIED is what we are to DO as CHRISTIANS, as the JUSTIFIED - it has nothing whatsoever to do with becoming a Christian, in being justified. We do not save self, we are not the Savior. And I reject the soteriology of modern Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism - that essentially we save ourselves with the suffient TIME and HELP that God provides, via the LAW, with no need for a Savior, no need for a Cross, no need for Blood, no need for Sacrifice, no need for UNCONDITIONAL love cuz we got self - goody, goody SELF ultimately earning our place in heaven.



Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

It isn't faith unless it acts and when it ceases to act it ceases to be faith.

James 2:20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

 

[Lamb]

It isn't faith unless it acts and when it ceases to act it ceases to be faith.

James 2:20 Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless?
James 2:26 For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Faith is a gift from God. It is fed by God's Word and sacraments. It is grown by God. The Holy Spirit guides us into doing the works He has planned for us.

If you're doing works to gain something, then you're not doing it by faith but by Law.

 

[psalms 91]

God gives us a measure of faith and then we need to grow it, stretch our wineskins so to speak

 

[MoreCoffee]

Faith is a gift from God. It is fed by God's Word and sacraments. It is grown by God. The Holy Spirit guides us into doing the works He has planned for us.

If you're doing works to gain something, then you're not doing it by faith but by Law.

I am not persuaded that believing that God rewards the faithful is "Law" and not faith.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Lamb]

Works that are done by faith are indeed good. Works done to gain are not done by faith.

 

[Alithis]

Endure means remain until the end. Remain in what? Faith in the Savior and His forgiveness.

and one who does so .. does not remain in sin -they cannot remain in both .
as it is written .. "they cannot go on sinning"

 

[Josiah]

and one who does so .. does not remain in sin -they cannot remain in both .

Still waiting for that list of just TEN living Christians who are PERFECT as God is.... HOLY as God is..... as LOVING as God is..... who have the SAME life as Jesus lives.... who have the identical attitude that Jesus does..... that have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people....who never miss the mark ("sin") but HIT it perfectly.... absolutely..... every time..... 24/7....... in their nature, in their attitude, in their thoughts, in their words, in their deeds. I'm NOT asking that you document that for all 2.2 billion living Christians, just 10. Include yourself if you can prove that you never miss the mark in anything God said to do/not do, if you can document that you are perfect like God.




.

 

[visionary]

Still waiting for that list of just TEN living Christians who are PERFECT as God is.... HOLY as God is..... as LOVING as God is..... who have the SAME life as Jesus lives.... who have the identical attitude that Jesus does..... that have made disciples of all 7.3 billion people....who never miss the mark ("sin") but HIT it perfectly.... absolutely..... every time..... 24/7....... in their nature, in their attitude, in their thoughts, in their words, in their deeds. I'm NOT asking that you document that for all 2.2 billion living Christians, just 10. Include yourself if you can prove that you never miss the mark in anything God said to do/not do, if you can document that you are perfect like God.
.

God will indeed bring us to the point where we will be "sealed". Sealed in the sense that it is our character to reflect Him perfectly henceforth via the indwelling fully of the Holy Spirit. We are the temple of God. At the heart of our temple is the TEN written centering our foundation upon which we as believers can stand the test of time, before God and man.

Ezekiel 36:26 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

It is in our Temple that the Holy Spirit dwells fully. Yeshua's prayer emphasize this on the night before His crucifixion,

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you and shall be in you".

Just as a child belongs to his/her parents fully, so also does the believer belong fully to God. If the believer is all in, heart, mind, and soul, to live godly, taking God's advice on how, they will grow up in Him. The Lord knowing this, while they are children, covers their mistakes, as if they never were, and declares them holy to Him. They are perfect in their moments, like a baby learning to walk, even if it only a few steps. Our heavenly Father cheers us on to walk further and further with Him.

You asked for evidence of the new life in a believer, perfect. The one who has the Spirit of God dwelling within as a well springing up into everlasting life is finding a new purpose in life that is independent of the world's pleasures. He does not need to run after the theatre and the opera and the dance and the cards and the other pleasures as they are no longer seen as a treasure/pleasure worth chasing. He gives these things up, not so much because he thinks they are wrong, as because he has something so much better. He loses all taste for them. He has found the pearl of great price. It is not the end that is perfect, it is the right direction. Perfect is not the finished product.

In Matthew 5:48 Yeshua gives us a command: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” This command for us to be perfect just as God is perfect seems like a total impossibility to us because Satan has instilled in our minds that we can never achieve such perfection. Yet, Yeshua said it because the "perfect" is in the doing that moment. The more moments you have of being in His perfect Will, the more perfect you are. At what point does a person reach perfection? When they are constantly 'perfect" in all their ways/ unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Only those who believe it is not possible, will find excuses not to try.

Jude 24 “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..."

Even the excuse, the devil made me do it is taken away.

2 Thessalonians 3:3: “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.”

Corinthians 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

So with that get established with God, where you can be solid in your walk with Him, not prone to stumbling, or veering left or right from the path God has put you on. May you be settled in your own heart and mind, that not only can it be done, but that through Yeshua you will do it via His Holy Spirit within you.

1 Peter 5:10 “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, MAKE YOU PERFECT, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

 

[Alithis]

God will indeed bring us to the point where we will be "sealed". Sealed in the sense that it is our character to reflect Him perfectly henceforth via the indwelling fully of the Holy Spirit. We are the temple of God. At the heart of our temple is the TEN written centering our foundation upon which we as believers can stand the test of time, before God and man.

Ezekiel 36:26 “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

It is in our Temple that the Holy Spirit dwells fully. Yeshua's prayer emphasize this on the night before His crucifixion,

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you and shall be in you".

Just as a child belongs to his/her parents fully, so also does the believer belong fully to God. If the believer is all in, heart, mind, and soul, to live godly, taking God's advice on how, they will grow up in Him. The Lord knowing this, while they are children, covers their mistakes, as if they never were, and declares them holy to Him. They are perfect in their moments, like a baby learning to walk, even if it only a few steps. Our heavenly Father cheers us on to walk further and further with Him.

You asked for evidence of the new life in a believer, perfect. The one who has the Spirit of God dwelling within as a well springing up into everlasting life is finding a new purpose in life that is independent of the world's pleasures. He does not need to run after the theatre and the opera and the dance and the cards and the other pleasures as they are no longer seen as a treasure/pleasure worth chasing. He gives these things up, not so much because he thinks they are wrong, as because he has something so much better. He loses all taste for them. He has found the pearl of great price. It is not the end that is perfect, it is the right direction. Perfect is not the finished product.

In Matthew 5:48 Yeshua gives us a command: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” This command for us to be perfect just as God is perfect seems like a total impossibility to us because Satan has instilled in our minds that we can never achieve such perfection. Yet, Yeshua said it because the "perfect" is in the doing that moment. The more moments you have of being in His perfect Will, the more perfect you are. At what point does a person reach perfection? When they are constantly 'perfect" in all their ways/ unto all good works.

2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be PERFECT, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.”

Only those who believe it is not possible, will find excuses not to try.

Jude 24 “Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy..."

Even the excuse, the devil made me do it is taken away.

2 Thessalonians 3:3: “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.”

Corinthians 10:13 “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.”

So with that get established with God, where you can be solid in your walk with Him, not prone to stumbling, or veering left or right from the path God has put you on. May you be settled in your own heart and mind, that not only can it be done, but that through Yeshua you will do it via His Holy Spirit within you.

1 Peter 5:10 “But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, MAKE YOU PERFECT, stablish, strengthen, settle you.”

thanks..

good news isnt it