Justification: By OUR works or CHRIST'S works?

[Josiah]

Possible... ok How about this... I will say and believe that it will definitely happen for those who are willing to go all the way with God.

Can you name 10 people in the past 2000 years where that's happened? IF so, then IMO, you will prove Christianity wrong and the Bible wrong when it says "NO ONE is righteous, not even one" "NO ONE is good but God exclusively." "IF one claims to be without sin, they lie and make God a liar." And you would prove that Christ is an unnecessary, irrelevant joke since we actually don't need nothing from Him.... we don't need no Christ, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy - all we need is HELP and TIME to get where we don't need no God or Savior cuz we got self (the soteriology of Bhakti Hindusim, NOT Christianity). I dont accept that we save ourselves by becoming as perfect, holy, loving as God is (and thus need nothing from God, need no Christ, no Savior, no mercy, no nothin' cuz we got self) - even with unlimited TIME (Hindus insists millions of reincarnations) OR unlimited HELP. I believe we all need the SAVIOR (not just time and help), we need MERCY, we need the CROSS, we need the BLOOD. Which is why I'm a Christian and not a Bhakti Hindu. Follow?

Now, IF (I.F.) this thread were about santification - a whole other topic, a whole other enchilada - IF that were the case (and it's NOT).... THEN I'd say God empowers those justified to make PROGRESS in their lives of morality and love but I don't agree EVEN IF SANCTIFICATION WERE THE TOPIC - AND IT'S NOT - that we make ourselves absolutely, divinely PERFECT (even if you plug and promote the Bhakti Hindu idea of "it takes a LOT of time and a whole lot of divine HELP"), IMO we never outgrow Christ, we never become unneeding of His love, His blood, His Cross, His mercy, His work.... IMO. I hope you see my point, friend.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Without holiness no one will see God.

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Does anybody think that a man may be justified and not see God?

 

[Josiah]

Without holiness no one will see God.

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Does anybody think that a man may be justified and not see God?

STRIVE

And yes, this is LAW (in a thread about Gospel), and this is SANCTIFICATION (in a thread about Justification).

I understand you passion for circumventing Christ and the Gospel, for belittling Christ and the Cross (which you often don't even care to MENTION even in passing), and for engrandizing self, to make self as BIG as possible and Christ as small as possible. Yes, I think man may be SAVED by the SAVIOR, and that the SAVIOR thus saves us. I don't agree that self saves self by self becoming such that self needs no God, no Christ, no Savior, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no nothin' cuz self has self and self is SO great, SO big, SO wonderful, SO perfect, SO holy that God is forced to allow SELF into heaven (making Jesus.... well..... irrelevant). We disagree on this point, I know, as countless discussions between us have shown. And yes, it IS noted by me that there are a few modern American "Evangelicals" who take the sometime Catholic view to it's logical extreme which is why you choose to argue and debate with those of us supporting Jesus as the Savior rather than them. I "get" it.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hebrews 12:14 Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.

Is gospel.

 

[Josiah]

GOSPEL - what GOD does for us, the heart/mercy/love of God, justification.
LAW - What is commanded for us to do, the will/justice of God, sanctification.

[you] STRIVE.... thus MUST be Law. And the whole context of Hebrews is SANCTIFICATION - what Christians (those who are justified, narrow) are to do, and as you know, this thread is not about sanctification. Not at all, not a bit. Its about JUSTIFICATION. But yes, I know you disagree with the idea that Jesus is the Savior (and thus we are not - not now, not ever; not in part nor in whole).... I support that Jesus is the Savior and thus our being saved is the result of what the Savior does/did - HIS work, HIS love, HIS obedience, HIS service, HIS Cross, HIS blood, HIS mercy, HIS forgiveness, HIS death, HIS resurrrection.... that HE is the Savior, not self. I reject the idea that Jesus was a worthless, irrelevant joke and what we really need is sufficient TIME and HELP so that we get to where we need no God, no Christ, no Savior, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no forgiveness, no nothin' cuz we got self and self is now perfectly, divinely moral, loving, holy and serving; obedient and always hitting the mark.

 

[MoreCoffee]

GOSPEL - what GOD does for us, the heart/mercy/love of God, justification.
LAW - What is commanded for us to do, the will/justice of God, sanctification.

[you] STRIVE.... thus MUST be Law. And the whole context of Hebrews is SANCTIFICATION - what Christians (those who are justified, narrow) are to do, and as you know, this thread is not about sanctification. Not at all, not a bit. Its about JUSTIFICATION. But yes, I know you disagree with the idea that Jesus is the Savior (and thus we are not - not now, not ever; not in part nor in whole).... I support that Jesus is the Savior and thus our being saved is the result of what the Savior does/did - HIS work, HIS love, HIS obedience, HIS service, HIS Cross, HIS blood, HIS mercy, HIS forgiveness, HIS death, HIS resurrrection.... that HE is the Savior, not self. I reject the idea that Jesus was a worthless, irrelevant joke and what we really need is sufficient TIME and HELP so that we get to where we need no God, no Christ, no Savior, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no forgiveness, no nothin' cuz we got self and self is now perfectly, divinely moral, loving, holy and serving; obedient and always hitting the mark.

Where exactly do the holy scriptures make the distinctions that you've made? This LAW vs GOSPEL bifurcation - exactly what passages teach it?

 

[Lamb]

Where exactly do the holy scriptures make the distinctions that you've made? This LAW vs GOSPEL bifurcation - exactly what passages teach it?

Josiah already posted verses for Law and Gospel. Take a closer look at the verses and see what is happening. In the Law you see repeatedly the YOU as in you will do or not do. In the Gospel verses he pointed out you see it's God's doing.

The Law always accuses. The Gospel always saves.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Josiah already posted verses for Law and Gospel. Take a closer look at the verses and see what is happening. In the Law you see repeatedly the YOU as in you will do or not do. In the Gospel verses he pointed out you see it's God's doing.

The Law always accuses. The Gospel always saves.

The verses make no sharp distinction between what the faithful do and what God does through them and for them and in them. The gospel is not about passivity nor is obedience to be counted as Law. The two are the same thing. One receives grace and grace enables action and one receives forgiveness and mercy and these enable renewed obedience.

 

[visionary]

STRIVE

And yes, this is LAW (in a thread about Gospel), and this is SANCTIFICATION (in a thread about Justification).

I understand you passion for circumventing Christ and the Gospel, for belittling Christ and the Cross (which you often don't even care to MENTION even in passing), and for engrandizing self, to make self as BIG as possible and Christ as small as possible. Yes, I think man may be SAVED by the SAVIOR, and that the SAVIOR thus saves us. I don't agree that self saves self by self becoming such that self needs no God, no Christ, no Savior, no Cross, no Blood, no mercy, no nothin' cuz self has self and self is SO great, SO big, SO wonderful, SO perfect, SO holy that God is forced to allow SELF into heaven (making Jesus.... well..... irrelevant). We disagree on this point, I know, as countless discussions between us have shown. And yes, it IS noted by me that there are a few modern American "Evangelicals" who take the sometime Catholic view to it's logical extreme which is why you choose to argue and debate with those of us supporting Jesus as the Savior rather than them. I "get" it.



Pax CHRISTI

- Josiah

where do you get the impression, obedience to the Law is 'saving self"?

 

[Josiah]

where do you get the impression, obedience to the Law is 'saving self"?

I don't think it is, but others here persistently insist that it is. This thread is about JUSTIFICATION and some here not even MENTION (even in passing, just to mention it) Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness or even God. Just self. And how self is obedient, sinless, perfect.... ALL the in sole, singular context of JUSTIFICATION (not, not sanctification). Some - when they sense something (like me) believes that JESUS is the Savior (and thus not self), here it comes (over and over) a rebuttle and disagreement, STRESSING it's all about OUR being obedient, sinless, perfect, holy - getting ourselves to where we don't need no God, no Christ, no Blood, no Cross, no mercy (which is why they don't mention them) cuz we are now perfect. They protest any proclaimation of the Gospel by insisting that it's OUR keeping of the LAW that saves.



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[Josiah]

TThe gospel is not about passivity nor is obedience to be counted as Law. The two are the same thing. One receives grace and grace enables action and one receives forgiveness and mercy and these enable renewed obedience.

Thus your confusion (necessary to engrandize self and belittle Christ, necessary to make Christ just a HELPER or POSSIBILITY maker but not the Savior, necessary to promote the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism rather than Christianity). You have so entangled, confused, blended, mixed-up Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God so as to destroy all of it..... all to enforce you looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross, to make it all about you rather than the Suffering Servant, your "option B - ME!" soteriology, your "Jesus perhaps opened the door to heaven but it's up to ME to get MYSELF through it" so that Jesus is NOT the Savior of you (you are).... He is AT MOST a possibility-maker, a helper (although you rarely even mention Him at all - for anything), the idea that we save ourselves given suffienint TIME and HELP - which of course is the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism (which you - and some others here - promote against the Christian Gospel).



Pax CHRISTI



- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

so you do not believe in confession even in light of Romans 10: 9-10

 

[MoreCoffee]

The verses make no sharp distinction between what the faithful do and what God does through them and for them and in them. The gospel is not about passivity nor is obedience to be counted as Law. The two are the same thing. One receives grace and grace enables action and one receives forgiveness and mercy and these enable renewed obedience.

Thus your confusion (necessary to aggrandize self and belittle Christ, necessary to make Christ just a HELPER or POSSIBILITY maker but not the Savior, necessary to promote the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism rather than Christianity). You have so entangled, confused, blended, mixed-up Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God so as to destroy all of it..... all to enforce you looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross, to make it all about you rather than the Suffering Servant, your "option B - ME!" soteriology, your "Jesus perhaps opened the door to heaven but it's up to ME to get MYSELF through it" so that Jesus is NOT the Savior of you (you are).... He is AT MOST a possibility-maker, a helper (although you rarely even mention Him at all - for anything), the idea that we save ourselves given sufficient TIME and HELP - which of course is the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism (which you - and some others here - promote against the Christian Gospel).
Pax CHRISTI
Josiah

The holy scriptures confuse every attempt to create a merely human system of beliefs such as the one you've advocated. The mystery is that God reveals himself. The tragedy is that people want no mystery in their systems of religion.

 

[Josiah]

The holy scriptures confuse every attempt to create a merely human system of beliefs such as the one you've advocated. The mystery is that God reveals himself. The tragedy is that people want no mystery in their systems of religion.

One of the reasons I left your religion. Catholicism is SO big on itself, SO egotistical, SO in love with itself, SO admired with the reflection it itself sees in a pool of water that it simply declares that WHATEVER silly, absurd, unbiblical theory it itself alone comes up with is DOGMATIC FACT if it itself alone says it is, God Himself must agree with it itself or God would be wrong, it itself is the Voice of God, God on Earth. That ego not only leads to its insistence of it itself that it itself uniquely is unaccountable and infallible, but also leads it to abandon any sense of humility.

Your entangling, confusing, mixing, of Law and Gospel, self and God, sanctification and justification is done for one reason: To make self BIG and Christ small (even irrelevant in terms of justification - narrow, which is why many Catholics go on and on in this topic and never even MENTION Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy). Thus your confusion (necessary to aggrandize self and belittle Christ, necessary to make Christ just a HELPER or POSSIBILITY maker but not the Savior, necessary to promote the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism rather than Christianity). You have so entangled, confused, blended, mixed-up Law and Gospel, sanctification and justification, self and God so as to destroy all of it..... all to enforce you looking in the mirror rather than to the Cross, to make it all about you rather than the Suffering Servant, your "option B - ME!" soteriology, your "Jesus perhaps opened the door to heaven but it's up to ME to get MYSELF through it" so that Jesus is NOT the Savior of you (you are).... He is AT MOST a possibility-maker, a helper (although you rarely even mention Him at all - for anything), the idea that we save ourselves given sufficient TIME and HELP - which of course is the theology of Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism (which you - and some others here - promote against the Christian Gospel).



Pax CHRISTI



Josiah

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

When you are ready to show chapter & verse that divides gospel and obedience the way your stated theology divides Gospel & Law then post it. I'd be interested to see what foundations you've got for the idea. So far all you've done in your posts is rant about Catholic beliefs being bad. Reading your posts is almost as bad as watching an episode of South Park.

 

[Josiah]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

When you are ready to show chapter & verse that divides gospel and obedience the way your stated theology divides Gospel & Law then post it. I'd be interested to see what foundations you've got for the idea.

Context....

What speaks of what WE are to do - that's Law. What speaks of what mandates exist for homo sapiens - that's Law.
What speaks of what CHRISTIANS are to do (and not) - that's Law (and also sanctification).

What speaks of what GOD does for us - that's Gospel.
What speaks of His unconditional/unmerited love - that's Gospel.
What speak of His MERCY for Christ's sake - that's Gospel.
What speaks of the SAVIOR - that's gospel.

CONTEXT tends to suggest what we are dealing with.



Catholics and Mormons MUST confuse the two, entangle them, mix them (and water both down - enormously) in order to belittle Christ, God, Law and Gospel and in place of that, engrandize and enlarge self..... to make self capable of making self needless of God, Christ, the Cross, the Blood, mercy, justification, forgiveness, rather, self is SO great, SO wonderful, that SELF can save self (well, more technically, make self not needing of saving). This is why Catholics (like you) can post on and on and on concerning the topic of justification and not even MENTION Christ or the Cross or the Blood or mercy or forgiveness.... they just go on and on about SELF bringing self to perfection, the obedience of self, the supreme goody-goodiness of self. It of course destroys the central point of Christianity - that Jesus is the Savior and instead of that, attempts to subvert that with the soteriology of Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism, namely, that we eventually save ourselves (more technically, make self not needing of such) albeit with TIME and HELP. Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism credit (and thank) this HELP to God. A few modern American Evangelicals tend to credit the Holy Spirit with this HELP. Catholics and Mormons usually credit Jesus with this HELP. Time and Help - what is needed (NOT salvation, NOT justification, NOT mercy, NOT forgiveness - not when self is SO big, SO great, SO wonderful, SO impressive, SO obedient, SO perfect, SO holy!).

What I learned in Catholicism (and virtually every CAtholic I know says they learned) is 1) Christ opened the gate to heaven for us but WE gotta get OURSELVES through that gate by what WE do - so it's OUR efforts, OUR works that is responsible for SELF entering heaven.... Jesus is the POSSIBILITY MAKER but not the Savior. And ..... while I'd guess 90-95% of Catholics don't seem to speak of this, Catholicism (like Judaism, Islam and Bhakti Hinduism) teaches that SELF can NOT do this by our OWN innate human strength.... we need HELP..... from none other than God! Judaism, Islam and Hinduism stress this much more than Catholicism (Mormonism stresses this point more, too I've discovered) But of course, this is NOT professing Christ as the Savior but rather as a HELPER. And actually not even that. We Catholics were taught that this HELP comes from 1) The Roman Catholic Church, 2) From the 'treasury of merits" which The Roman Catholic Church has and doles out, 3) From the CURRENT official list of saints as declared by the current Roman Catholic Church, 4) from the Mother of The Roman Catholic Church - the Blessed Virgin, 5) From the EXACTLY SEVEN (not six or eight) Sacraments owned and administered by The Roman Catholic Church. But usually Christ gets in there somewhere. We get HELP so we can save/justify SELF. And sometimes Catholics will use the WORD "grace".... even saying to a Protestant, "We members of the RC Denomination believe that we are saved by grace!" It's just that in the RCC, even 'grace' is all about self. It was defined for us by our teachers, "Grace is like gas that God puts in your tank so that YOU can get YOURSELF where you need to get." HELP. Not salvation. Sancatification, no justification. Law, no Gospel. SELF.... a very, very big, good SELF. Christ, the Cross, the Blood, Mercy..... rarely mentioned (in this context especially). And when someone posts, "I believe JESUS is the Savior!" why some Catholics, Mormons (and occasionally, modern American Evangelicals) just come unglued: "YOU GOTTA this! YOU GOTTA that! YOU MUST jump thorugh these 50 hoops, then come back and I'll create 50 more! You gotta save/justify YOURSELF by what YOU do!


Now, I'm personally of the conviction that Catholicism OFFICIALLY still knows the Gospel, still embraces JESUS as (at least PART) Savior..... you have to look HARD in official things (many of them very, very old) but it's NOT entirely lost. It's just not what Catholics are taught by their pastors, teachers, parents.... it's not what they hear from Catholic sermons (I KNOW - I've heard LOTS and LOTS of them!). They hear/learn the entangled, confused, self-centered, self-engrandizing, largely Christless, Crossless, Merciless, Bloodless MESS that you've also conveyed - hardly mentioning Christ or the Cross or the Blood or Mercy (or the Gospel) AT ALL - and even when you do, it's just TIME and HELP, it's slightly repackaged Judaism, Islam and Bhatki Hinduism.


Answer this: WHO is the Savior?


IF you answer "Jesus" then Jesus is the Savior. Not you - not a bit, not at all, not now, not ever, not in any way or shape or form or manner. Salvation is entirely, wholly wrapped up in Jesus. Alone. It's entirely HIS work. HIS heart. HIS love. HIS mercy. HIS gift. HIS blessing. His life, His death, His resurrection. His Cross, His blood, His sacrifice. His righteousness, His obedience, His holiness. Not you. Not yours. You may have some other role in some other matter (Christian living, for example), but not this. The "job" of Savior belongs to Jesus. Not you.

IF you answer "ME!" then you are the Savior. Not Jesus. Not a bit, not at all. Not now, not ever. Not in any way, shape or form or manner. Salvation is all wrapped up in YOU. YOUR works. YOUR will. YOUR love. YOUR efforts. YOUR merits. YOUR obedience. YOUR righteousness. YOUR holiness. YOUR sacrifice. Not Jesus. Not Jesus'. Jesus may have some other role in some other matter, just not this one. The Savior is you.


Which is it? If you give the Christian answer, a LOT of Christianity falls into place.





Thank you.


Pax CHRISTI


- Josiah





.

 

[Rens]

The verses make no sharp distinction between what the faithful do and what God does through them and for them and in them. The gospel is not about passivity nor is obedience to be counted as Law. The two are the same thing. One receives grace and grace enables action and one receives forgiveness and mercy and these enable renewed obedience.

Exactly

 

[MoreCoffee]

[MENTION=13]Josiah[/MENTION]

When you are ready to show chapter & verse that divides gospel and obedience the way your stated theology divides Gospel & Law then post it. I'd be interested to see what foundations you've got for the idea. So far all you've done in your posts is rant about Catholic beliefs being bad. Reading your posts is almost as bad as watching an episode of South Park.

Context....

You wrote a long post but gave not a single verse, not a single passage, not a reasoned explanation of biblical passages in it. You did not provide what was asked of you. You didn't show chapter & verse that divides gospel and obedience the way your stated theology divides Gospel & Law.

 

[Rens]

Justification: by our works or by Christ's works?
If we died with Christ there's no difference anyway.
If you put the emphasis only on the texts that say we have to obey, you can fall into the trap of: I have to do this, I have to do that. If the emphasis is only on grace, the trap is that you can become lazy and lawless. Just stay in the middle of the road.

 

[psalms 91]

Yes messy, very good