Why was Mary necessary?

[Josiah]

Do you realize what you're accusing??? That's so nuts.

Scary, isn't it?

 

[Alithis]

Alithis,

Did the Lord tell you to repent of the Nestorianism you have been parroting and promoting?

Did the Lord tell you that the teachings of Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 are NOT "false, wrong and blasphemy" but actually correct?



Actually, your "spirit" in speech has been of zero concern to me. Or interest. It's your condemnation of the two teachings here and your promotion of Nestorianism that have been my sole concern and the ONLY issues I've addressed. The ONLY reason I've stuck with this for the over 60 pages of it is the absolute necessity of NOT permitting Nestorianism to go uncorrected, to let it "pass" or simply "winked" at. As I've said all along, I could care less what titles people may or may not use for pretty much anything or anyone, but blatant heresy DOES concern me.
.

Did the Lord tell you to repent of the Nestorianism you have been parroting and promoting?

NO - in the name OF THE LORD JESUS i declare before you and the lord ,who knows all and sees all and knows what is in the the heart of man. i have never listened to nor read anything by that person and had not ever heard of the name until you mentioned it on this thread and have still not bothered to look it up .

 

[Josiah]

Did the Lord tell you to repent of the Nestorianism you have been parroting and promoting?

NO - in the name OF THE LORD JESUS i declare before you and the lord ,who knows all and sees all and knows what is in the the heart of man. i have never listened to nor read anything by that person and had not ever heard of the name until you mentioned it on this thread and have still not bothered to look it up .

You are parroting that heretic PERFECTLY.... verbatim. Echoing Nestorianism.... Promoting Nestorianism.... Defending Nestorianism. And you stated that you've read our posts to you (after claiming that you didn't) so you cannot claim ignorance on this, you do so knowingly.

Perhaps you have a pastor and/or teacher who embraces and teachess this horrible, destructive, dangerous heresy (perhaps choosing to not tell you it's actually a condemned heresy) - and now you are echoing it.

You have been corrected. Over and over and over and over and over. You don't care.

It says much about you.

And those who echo and defend you.

And it IS scary.

And it should not be tolerated, it should not be winked at, it should NOT go uncorrected - if not for the sake or a few here (who may not care) but for the sake of some who may read this thread and by your heresy be torn away from Christ. Indeed, your heresy came close to destroying Christianity.... now you are determined to resurrect it.




- Josiah

 

[psalms 91]

I feel very comfortable with what people will take away from this thread. I believe they will see the slavish devotion to Mary and the vigorous defense of her by attacking posters, I think they will see who is decieved to the detriment of Christ and who is held to be important. I also think they will see the attacks on any who disagree as well as the unwarrented attacks on one individual who asked forgiveness for being argumentative and was still harrangued trying to gget a response even after he had bowed out of the thread. Yes I think people will see very weell and perhaps even understand what a bully is in the end.

 

[Lamb]

I personally don't think that heresy should be encouraged and it's really worth it for anyone and everyone to read up on why certain beliefs are considered heretical. The thread might have been shortened a bit if some background reading had been done?

 

[Josiah]

I feel very comfortable with what people will take away from this thread. I believe they will see the slavish devotion to Mary and the vigorous defense of her by attacking posters, I think they will see who is decieved to the detriment of Christ and who is held to be important. I also think they will see the attacks on any who disagree as well as the unwarrented attacks on one individual who asked forgiveness for being argumentative and was still harrangued trying to gget a response even after he had bowed out of the thread. Yes I think people will see very weell and perhaps even understand what a bully is in the end.

I haven't notice such of anything about Mary, just strong, strong attacks on two teachings (Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13), and a consistent promotion of Nestorianism. Including you, Bill, who commented that Nestorianism "sounds good."


As I've said REPEATEDLY:

I could care less what people think of Mary.
I could care less what titles or labels that anyone gives or doesn't give to anyone.
The point I'm making has NOTHING to do with Mary or with any poster here.
IT HAS TO DO WITH CHRIST!
It has to do with Christology!


My motive here has to do with NOT permitting the advocacy of one of the worst, most dangerous, most destructive heresies in 2000 years. If we are "bullies" of heresy (and thus defenders of Christ), then I'll wear that label with pride and joy.

I will not permit the echoing, the proclaimation of this horrible, condemned HERESY that nearly destroyed Christianity; I will not tolerate this rebuke of Christ, I will not sit back and do nothing as posters promote HERESY (even if the advocates don't care - and obviously the ones here at CH don't). It is scary to see people today ECHO (verbatim) one of the worse heretics in 2000 years - and see people defend that rather than quickly denounce it. And when the heresy is pointed out, that they are denouncing the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils, what we get is "I don't care."



References AGAIN....

https://carm.org/nestorianism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nestorianism

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/Nestorianism.html






.

 

[visionary]

How is not calling Mary, mother of god... dividing Christ's human from divine?

 

[visionary]

Nestorius declared Mary to be Christotokos (“bearer of Christ”), not theotokos (“bearer of God”) but that is not what I have seen here. What I have seen is that Mary was the bearer of Christ who is God in the Flesh... but Mary is not the Mother of God... Mary is the mother of the Son of God.

 

[Full O Beans]

Do you realize what you're accusing??? That's so nuts.

Thanks!

 

[Alithis]

Thanks!

will pm you

 

[pinacled]

To the OP. Suppose Necessity is given in proportion. Listen closely to to the differences in response to Gabriel.
How beautiful was Mary?

Perhaps reading will help

Luke 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,

9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.
10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him,
Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel,
Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19 And the angel answering said unto him,
I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.
22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.
23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.
24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,
Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her,
Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,
How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said,
Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said,
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46 And Mary said,
My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.



John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

 

[Josiah]

I haven't notice such of anything about Mary, just strong, strong attacks on two teachings (Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13), and a consistent promotion of Nestorianism. Including you, Bill, who commented that Nestorianism "sounds good."


As I've said REPEATEDLY:

I could care less what people think of Mary.
I could care less what titles or labels that anyone gives or doesn't give to anyone.
The point I'm making has NOTHING to do with Mary or with any poster here.
IT HAS TO DO WITH CHRIST!
It has to do with Christology!


My motive here has to do with NOT permitting the advocacy of one of the worst, most dangerous, most destructive heresies in 2000 years: Nestorianism.
NOT permitting the echoing and advocating of one of the worse heretics of all time, Nestorius.
If we are "bullies" of heresy (and thus defenders of Christ), then I'll wear that label with pride and joy.


I will not permit the echoing, the proclaimation of this horrible, condemned HERESY that nearly destroyed Christianity; I will not tolerate this rebuke of Christ, I will not sit back and do nothing as posters promote HERESY (even if the advocates don't care - and obviously the ones here at CH don't). It is scary to see people today ECHO (verbatim) one of the worse heretics in 2000 years - and see people defend that rather than quickly denounce it. And when the heresy is pointed out, that they are denouncing the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils, what we get is "I don't care."




References AGAIN....

https://carm.org/nestorianism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nestorianism

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/Nestorianism.html



But I know.... you don't care.




.

How is not calling Mary, mother of god... dividing Christ's human from divine?

The rationale given by several here is the denial of the inseparable natures of CHRIST, the attack has been directed to CHRIST, Mary is ONLY the bearer of the HUMANITY of Jesus because the two natures are SEPARATE - and thus it is "wrong, false and blasphemy" to affirm Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13. The rationale for this attack from these few posters here has come lock, stock and barrel - VERBATIM - from Nestorius, a perfect echo of one of the worse, most destructive heresies in all of Christian history: Nestorianism. Several here have been advocating and echoing Nestorianism. Originally, we assumed they were just ignorant of this - but then they noted that they "don't care".




.

 

[pinacled]

The rationale given by several here is the denial of the inseparable natures of CHRIST, the attack has been directed to CHRIST, Mary is ONLY the bearer of the HUMANITY of Jesus because the two natures are SEPARATE - and thus it is "wrong, false and blasphemy" to affirm Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13. The rationale for this attack from these few posters here has come lock, stock and barrel - VERBATIM - from Nestorius, a perfect echo of one of the worse, most destructive heresies in all of Christian history: Nestorianism. Several here have been advocating and echoing Nestorianism. Originally, we assumed they were just ignorant of this - but then they noted that they "don't care".




.

No one is doing any such thing. It is only a lack of communication. A divide in understanding. The traditions were and are kept by a people set apart. If you have the Holy Spirit just listen for the Bells.
2 tables of stone,5 on each.
Is your heart one of stone, or one of flesh with the Law written on it?



1Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the flocks of My pasture! says the Lord.
אהוֹי רֹעִים מְאַבְּדִים וּמְפִצִים אֶת צֹאן מַרְעִיתִי נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

2Therefore, so says the Lord God of Israel concerning the shepherds: You who pasture My people, you have scattered My flocks and have driven them away and have not taken care of them; behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your deeds, says the Lord.
בלָכֵן כֹּה אָמַר יְהֹוָה אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל עַל הָרֹעִים הָרֹעִים אֶת עַמִּי אַתֶּם הֲפִצֹתֶם אֶת צֹאנִי וַתַּדִּחוּם וְלֹא פְקַדְתֶּם אֹתָם הִנְנִי פֹקֵד עֲלֵיכֶם אֶת רֹעַ מַעַלְלֵיכֶם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

3And I will gather the remnant of My flocks from all the lands where I have driven them, and I will restore them to their dwellings and they shall be fruitful and multiply.
גוַאֲנִי אֲקַבֵּץ אֶת שְׁאֵרִית צֹאנִי מִכֹּל הָאֲרָצוֹת אֲשֶׁר הִדַּחְתִּי אֹתָם שָׁם וַהֲשִׁבֹתִי אֶתְהֶן עַל נְוֵהֶן וּפָרוּ וְרָבוּ:

4And I will set up shepherds over them and they shall pasture them, and they shall no longer fear nor shall they be dismayed, nor shall [any of them] be missing, says the Lord.
דוַהֲקִמֹתִי עֲלֵיהֶם רֹעִים וְרָעוּם וְלֹא יִירְאוּ עוֹד וְלֹא יֵחַתּוּ וְלֹא יִפָּקֵדוּ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

5Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will set up of David a righteous shoot, and he shall reign a king and prosper, and he shall perform judgment and righteousness in the land.
ההִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וַהֲקִמֹתִי לְדָוִד צֶמַח צַדִּיק וּמָלַךְ מֶלֶךְ וְהִשְׂכִּיל וְעָשָׂה מִשְׁפָּט וּצְדָקָה בָּאָרֶץ:

6In his days, Judah shall be saved and Israel shall dwell safely, and this is his name that he shall be called, The Lord is our righteousness. ובְּיָמָיו תִּוָּשַׁע יְהוּדָה וְיִשְׂרָאֵל יִשְׁכֹּן לָבֶטַח וְזֶה שְּׁמוֹ אֲשֶׁר יִקְרְאוֹ יְהֹוָה | צִדְקֵנוּ:

7Therefore, behold days are coming, says the Lord, when they shall no longer say, "As the Lord lives, Who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,"
זלָכֵן הִנֵּה יָמִים בָּאִים נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְלֹא יֹאמְרוּ עוֹד חַי יְהֹוָה אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱלָה אֶת בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרָיִם:

8But, "As the Lord lives, Who brought up and Who brought the seed of the house of Israel from the northland and from all the lands where I have driven them, and they shall dwell on their land."
חכִּי אִם חַי יְהֹוָה אֲשֶׁר הֶעֱלָה וַאֲשֶׁר הֵבִיא אֶת זֶרַע בֵּית יִשְׂרָאֵל מֵאֶרֶץ צָפוֹנָה וּמִכֹּל הָאֲרָצוֹת אֲשֶׁר הִדַּחְתִּים שָׁם וְיָשְׁבוּ עַל אַדְמָתָם:

9Because of the prophets my heart is broken within me, my bones shake, I was like a drunken man and like a man whom wine has overcome, because of the Lord and because of His holy words.
טלַנְּבִאִים נִשְׁבַּר לִבִּי בְקִרְבִּי רָחֲפוּ כָּל עַצְמוֹתַי הָיִיתִי כְּאִישׁ שִׁכּוֹר וּכְגֶבֶר עֲבָרוֹ יָיִן מִפְּנֵי יְהֹוָה וּמִפְּנֵי דִּבְרֵי קָדְשׁוֹ:

10For the land is full of adulterers, for because of oaths the land mourns, the dwellings in the wilderness are dried out, and their eagerness was evil and their power not right.
יכִּי מְנָאֲפִים מָלְאָה הָאָרֶץ כִּי מִפְּנֵי אָלָה אָבְלָה הָאָרֶץ יָבְשׁוּ נְאוֹת מִדְבָּר וַתְּהִי מְרוּצָתָם רָעָה וּגְבוּרָתָם לֹא כֵן:

11For both prophet and priest are false; even in My house have I found their evil, says the Lord.
יאכִּי גַם נָבִיא גַם כֹּהֵן חָנֵפוּ גַּם בְּבֵיתִי מָצָאתִי רָעָתָם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

12Therefore, their way shall be for them like slippery places in the dark; let them be thrust and fall therein, for I will bring evil upon them, the year of their visitation, says the Lord.
יבלָכֵן יִהְיֶה דַרְכָּם לָהֶם כַּחֲלַקְלַקּוֹת בָּאֲפֵלָה יִדַּחוּ וְנָפְלוּ בָהּ כִּי אָבִיא עֲלֵיהֶם רָעָה שְׁנַת פְּקֻדָּתָם נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

13And in the prophets of Samaria I saw unseemliness; they prophesied by Baal and misled My people Israel.
יגוּבִנְבִיאֵי שֹׁמְרוֹן רָאִיתִי תִפְלָה הִנַּבְּאוּ בַבַּעַל וַיַּתְעוּ אֶת עַמִּי אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל:

14And in the prophets of Jerusalem I saw a horrible thing, committing adultery and going with falseness, and they encouraged evil-doers, that none returns from his evil; all of them were to Me as Sodom and her inhabitants as Gomorrah.
ידוּבִנְבִאֵי יְרוּשָׁלִַם רָאִיתִי שַׁעֲרוּרָה נָאוֹף וְהָלֹךְ בַּשֶּׁקֶר וְחִזְּקוּ יְדֵי מְרֵעִים לְבִלְתִּי שָׁבוּ אִישׁ מֵרָעָתוֹ הָיוּ לִי כֻלָּם כִּסְדֹם וְיֹשְׁבֶיהָ כַּעֲמֹרָה:

15Therefore, so said the Lord of Hosts concerning the prophets: Behold I will feed them wormwood and give them poisonous water to drink, for from the prophets of Jerusalem has falseness emanated to the whole land.
טולָכֵן כֹּה אָמַר יְהֹוָה צְבָאוֹת עַל הַנְּבִאִים הִנְנִי מַאֲכִיל אוֹתָם לַעֲנָה וְהִשְׁקִתִים מֵי רֹאשׁ כִּי מֵאֵת נְבִיאֵי יְרוּשָׁלִַם יָצְאָה חֲנֻפָּה לְכָל הָאָרֶץ:

16So said the Lord of Hosts: Do not hearken to the words of the prophets who prophesy for you; they mislead you. The vision of their heart they speak, not from the mouth of the Lord.
טזכֹּה אָמַר יְהֹוָה צְבָאוֹת אַל תִּשְׁמְעוּ עַל דִּבְרֵי הַנְּבִאִים הַנִּבְּאִים לָכֶם מַהְבִּלִים הֵמָּה אֶתְכֶם חֲזוֹן לִבָּם יְדַבֵּרוּ לֹא מִפִּי יְהֹוָה:

17They say to those who despise Me, "The Lord has spoken, 'You shall have peace, ' " and [to] everyone who follows the view of his heart they say, "No evil shall befall you."
יזאֹמְרִים אָמוֹר לִמְנַאֲצַי דִּבֶּר יְהֹוָה שָׁלוֹם יִהְיֶה לָכֶם וְכֹל הֹלֵךְ בִּשְׁרִרוּת לִבּוֹ אָמְרוּ לֹא תָבוֹא עֲלֵיכֶם רָעָה:

18For who stood in the council of the Lord and will see and hear His word? He who hearkened to His word and listened.
יחכִּי מִי עָמַד בְּסוֹד יְהֹוָה וְיֵרֶא וְיִשְׁמַע אֶת דְּבָרוֹ מִי הִקְשִׁיב דְּבָרוֹ (כתיב דְּבָרֹי) וַיִּשְׁמָע:

19Behold a storm from the Lord has gone forth [with] fury, yea, a whirling storm, on the heads of the wicked it shall rest.
יטהִנֵּה | סַעֲרַת יְהֹוָה חֵמָה יָצְאָה וְסַעַר מִתְחוֹלֵל עַל רֹאשׁ רְשָׁעִים יָחוּל:

20The Lord's anger shall not return until He executes it and until He fulfills the plans of His heart. At the end of days, you shall consider it perfectly.
כלֹא יָשׁוּב אַף יְהֹוָה עַד עֲשֹׂתוֹ וְעַד הֲקִימוֹ מְזִמּוֹת לִבּוֹ בְּאַחֲרִית הַיָּמִים תִּתְבּוֹנְנוּ בָהּ בִּינָה:

21I did not send the prophets yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied.
כאלֹא שָׁלַחְתִּי אֶת הַנְּבִאִים וְהֵם רָצוּ לֹא דִבַּרְתִּי אֲלֵיהֶם וְהֵם נִבָּאוּ:
22And if they stood in My council, they should have let My people hear My words, so that they bring them back from their evil way and from the evil of their deeds.
כבוְאִם עָמְדוּ בְּסוֹדִי וְיַשְׁמִעוּ דְבָרַי אֶת עַמִּי וִישִׁבוּם מִדַּרְכָּם הָרָע וּמֵרֹעַ מַעַלְלֵיהֶם:

23Am I a God from near, says the Lord, and not a God from afar?
כגהַאֱלֹהֵי מִקָּרֹב אָנִי נְאֻם יְהֹוָה וְלֹא אֱלֹהֵי מֵרָחֹק:
24Can a man hide in secret places that I should not see him? says the Lord. Do I not fill the heavens and the earth? says the Lord.
כדאִם יִסָּתֵר אִישׁ בַּמִּסְתָּרִים וַאֲנִי לֹא אֶרְאֶנּוּ נְאֻם יְהֹוָה הֲלוֹא אֶת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֶת הָאָרֶץ אֲנִי מָלֵא נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

25I heard what the prophets said, those who prophesy in My name falsely, saying, "I have dreamed, I have dreamed."
כהשָׁמַעְתִּי אֵת אֲשֶׁר אָמְרוּ הַנְּבִאִים הַנִּבְּאִים בִּשְׁמִי שֶׁקֶר לֵאמֹר חָלַמְתִּי חָלָמְתִּי:

26How long [will this be]? Is it in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? But they are prophets of the deceit of their hearts,
כועַד מָתַי הֲיֵשׁ בְּלֵב הַנְּבִאִים נִבְּאֵי הַשָּׁקֶר וּנְבִיאֵי תַּרְמִת לִבָּם:

27Who think to cause My people to forget My name with their dreams that they tell, one to another, as their forefathers forgot My name through Baal.
כזהַחֹשְׁבִים לְהַשְׁכִּיחַ אֶת עַמִּי שְׁמִי בַּחֲלוֹמֹתָם אֲשֶׁר יְסַפְּרוּ אִישׁ לְרֵעֵהוּ כַּאֲשֶׁר שָׁכְחוּ אֲבוֹתָם אֶת שְׁמִי בַּבָּעַל:

28The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream, and who has My word, let him tell My word as truth. What has the straw to do with the wheat? says the Lord.
כחהַנָּבִיא אֲשֶׁר אִתּוֹ חֲלוֹם יְסַפֵּר חֲלוֹם וַאֲשֶׁר דְּבָרִי אִתּוֹ יְדַבֵּר דְּבָרִי אֱמֶת מַה לַתֶּבֶן אֶת הַבָּר נְאֻם יְהֹוָה:

29Is not My word so like fire? says the Lord, and like a hammer that shatters a rock?

 

[pinacled]

To the OP. Suppose Necessity is given in proportion. Listen closely to to the differences in response to Gabriel.
How beautiful was Mary?

Perhaps reading will help

Luke 1King James Version (KJV)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

7 And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years.
8 And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course,

9 According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.
10 And the whole multitude of the people were praying without at the time of incense.

11 And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

12 And when Zacharias saw him, he was troubled, and fear fell upon him.
13 But the angel said unto him,
Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John.
14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth.
15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

18 And Zacharias said unto the angel,
Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
19 And the angel answering said unto him,
I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.
20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

21 And the people waited for Zacharias, and marvelled that he tarried so long in the temple.
22 And when he came out, he could not speak unto them: and they perceived that he had seen a vision in the temple: for he beckoned unto them, and remained speechless.
23 And it came to pass, that, as soon as the days of his ministration were accomplished, he departed to his own house.
24 And after those days his wife Elisabeth conceived, and hid herself five months, saying,
25 Thus hath the Lord dealt with me in the days wherein he looked on me, to take away my reproach among men.

26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said,
Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30 And the angel said unto her,
Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

34 Then said Mary unto the angel,
How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35 And the angel answered and said unto her,
The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38 And Mary said,
Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said,
Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

46 And Mary said,
My soul doth magnify the Lord,
47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.

52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree.

53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away.

54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;

55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.



John 1King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.



Hebrews 1King James Version (KJV)

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;

12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Again how Beautiful was Mary of low estate?

Gen 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

[Josiah]

I haven't notice such of anything about Mary, just strong, strong attacks on two teachings (Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13), and a consistent promotion of Nestorianism. Including you, Bill, who commented that Nestorianism "sounds good."


As I've said REPEATEDLY:

+ I could care less what people think of Mary.
+ I could care less what titles or labels that anyone gives or doesn't give to anyone.
+ The point I'm making has NOTHING to do with Mary or with any poster here.
IT HAS TO DO WITH CHRIST!
It has to do with Christology!


My motive here has to do with NOT permitting the advocacy of one of the worst, most dangerous, most destructive heresies in 2000 years: Nestorianism.
NOT permitting the echoing and advocating of one of the worse heretics of all time, Nestorius.
If we are "bullies" of heresy (and thus defenders of Christ), then I'll wear that label with pride and joy.


I will not permit the echoing, the proclaimation of this horrible, condemned HERESY that nearly destroyed Christianity; I will not tolerate this rebuke of Christ, I will not sit back and do nothing as posters promote HERESY (even if the advocates don't care - and obviously the ones here at CH don't). It is scary to see people today ECHO (verbatim) one of the worse heretics in 2000 years - and see people defend that rather than rebuke Nestorianisn. And when the heresy is pointed out, that they are denouncing the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils, what we get is "I don't care."




References AGAIN....

https://carm.org/nestorianism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nestorianism

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10755a.htm

http://www.gotquestions.org/Nestorianism.html



But I know.... you don't care.




.

How is not calling Mary, mother of god... dividing Christ's human from divine?


.

The rationale given by several here is the denial of the inseparable natures of CHRIST, the attack has been directed to CHRIST, Mary is ONLY the bearer of the HUMANITY of Jesus because the two natures are SEPARATE - and thus it is "wrong, false and blasphemy" to affirm Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13. The rationale for this attack from these few posters here has come lock, stock and barrel - VERBATIM - from Nestorius, a perfect echo of one of the worse, most destructive heresies in all of Christian history: Nestorianism. Several here have been advocating and echoing Nestorianism. Originally, we assumed they were just ignorant of this - but then they noted that they "don't care".



.

Again how Beautiful was Mary of low estate?

Of course. It's CHRIST that has been consistently attacked - particularly, His two inseparable natures. Attacked with the verbatim words of a horrible heretic, Nestorius. It's Nestorianism that has been promoted - echoed and parroted perfectly. Defended and said to be "sounds good." Nestorianism is not an attack on Mary, it's an attack on Christ - and Christianity..

None of those verses you quote documents that the two teachings of Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 are "false, wrong and blasphemy" as alleged. And NONE of them supports Nestorius against the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils that condemned that heretic and the teachings of these several posters here at CH. I invite you to check out the links offered above.




,

 

[Lamb]

I don't think they're reading your links, Josiah. You might want to post some of the information here.

 

[psalms 91]

I don't think they're reading your links, Josiah. You might want to post some of the information here.

I cant read them Lamm he is on ignore and I have no plans on taking him off

 

[Josiah]

I don't think they're reading your links, Josiah. You might want to post some of the information here.

They don't care. They simply don't care that they are advocating and echoing one of the worse heresies in history. It IS scary.

The ONLY reason I've stuck with this for SIXTY-SIX pages is because Christ matters..... and this verbatim echoism of Nestorianism CANNOT go uncorrected, cannot be tolerated. I suspect the few "Evangelicals" promoting Nestorianism here should be believed when they say they don't care, but we might have READERS.... people who might not immediately recognize this heresy. It is FOR THEM that I've stuck with this.


Let's remember.... way back in post # 14, I stated (for the first time; it is repeated many times after post 14), clearly this title can (and is) misunderstood and misapplied. We agreed on page back on PAGE ONE....and I repeated that many, many times. That's NOT been the issue. They attacked the TEACHING, the THEOLOGY as "false, wrong and blasphemy." Understand that; keep that clearly in mind, clearly in focus. When I noted that Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 verbatim state the teaching here, the theology here - first one said they reversed their own self... but then immediately returned to the the premise that the TEACHING is "false, wrong and blasphemy" WHY? The reason given is a verbatim echoing, promoting and defending of Nestorianism. One of the worst, most destructive heresies in the history of Christianity, one that nearly destroyed Christianity. Bill claims ignorance - but I respectfully question that. We've been pointed this out since about page 3 or 4. WAY, LONG before he put me on ignore. Other besides me have pointed out the error, people NOT on his ignore list. And remember.... the response we've generally have gotten is "I don't care." Consider that.


Look, I know we're laity here. I know some might wander into bad things VERY INNOCENTLY. I don't think less of anyone on that count. BUT, we should welcome correction. When a view is shown to be wrong.... when it's clearly shown their position is verbatim echoing one of the most destructive, dangerous heresies in history..... one would HOPE they'd re-evaluate. Instead, all we've gotten is "I don't care" and "your on my ignore list" so I don't have to read the identity of my position. The IGNORANCE is understandable and says nothing negative.... the "I don't care" is the part that troubles me. And yes - I've raised: is Nestorianism something modern American "Evangelicals" are being taught? Are they echoing what their "Evangelical" pastors are telling them? The unity of these folks on this is something not to be missed, the persistence of holding to it IN SPITE OF the obvious echoism of this heresy is amazing. Has this heresy been resurrected in "Evangelicalism?" If so, it's far more troubling that 3 or 4 posters at a tiny internet website.....


Truth matters. CHRIST matters. That's the sole, exclusive, singular reason I've been persistent here.




Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah





.

 

[TurtleHare]

How do you let people know they believe in heresy when just about everyone on this site believes that the Holy Spirit is leading them? How do you convince them or talk to them so that they might want to listen?

 

[Josiah]

How do you let people know they believe in heresy when just about everyone on this site believes that the Holy Spirit is leading them? How do you convince them or talk to them so that they might want to listen?

Some "Evangelicals" take that stance..... which is their way of saying they are unaccountable, infallible (a Return to Rome).

This goes together with the "I DON"T CARE" response to their echoing one of the most destructive, divisive, dangerous heresies in all Christian heresy. They just don't care. They can't claim ignorance - because they have been told (over and over and over). They just don't care.

And it's NOT the RC Denomination they are attacking .... it's certainly not Mary..... it's CHRIST! Denying who He is.... denying His two inseparable natures.... echoing verbatim Nestorious.



None of us cares what anyone chooses to call anyone (a point made MANY times).... None of us debates this title (LIKE ALL THINGS) can be misunderstood and misapplied (see post # 4 ON THE FIRST PAGE - and repeated over and over and over). It's CHRIST we care about, it's HERESY we care about! It's their insistence that it is "false, wrong and blasphemy" to affirm Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 over against the Nestorianism they so boldly proclaim and defend.