Why was Mary necessary?

[TurtleHare]

An argument I've heard quite often in Mariology because when people seem to honor Mary as the Mother of God, people say she was just a random woman selected. And if so, then many why did God need to use a random woman to reveal His Son?

Did God use a random woman to reveal His Son I see is in your post and I am not sure if this has been brought up in the many pages of this thread but God wasn't to be born on earth in an earthly kingdom with a crown and riches but instead his plan was to humble himself before us and be born in poverty. Mary was favored among God and was chosen by him to carry him, give birth and be His mother raising him and taking him to temple and doing all those motherly things that moms do for their sons.

 

[George]

i wil

and i can do so with confidence that im not opposing the word of God .

Lol just stop, the Alithis version of the Bible does not count.

If you want to be Nestorius 2.0 then that's your call, you're just following one of the biggest heretics the church has seen.

 

[Josiah]

Yes, we know.

You have two apologetics:


1. That the teachings of this title are "false, wrong and blasphemy" Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 (the teachings being affirmed in the title) are ones you protest. Here you are echoing (perfectly!) the heretic Nestorius and promoting the ancient heresy of Nestorianism that lead SO many astray and nearly destroyed Christianity. https://carm.org/nestorianism Over and over and over again in these 60+ pages, several of us have protested your Nestorianism and defended the truths of Matthew 1:18, Titus 2:13, the doctrine of the Two Inseparable Natures of Christ, the First and Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils but you have been persistent in your echoing of Nestorius and your promotion of one of the worst and most damaging heresies in history: Nestorianism. I use to think you were just ignorant since you noted you don't read what's posted here, but then you said you do - so you KNOW you are contradicting Scripture and the Councils and instead promoting a horrible heresy taht lead so very many astray and nearly destroyed the faith. THAT is why I've been so persistent here: your heresy is dangerous, very dangerous and destructive, it cannot go uncorrected.


2. You have this SILLY position that we can't use titles not found directly, verbatim in the Bible. Thing is: YOU DO. All the time. Proving that you don't believe your own apologetic, YOU think your own point is silly, wrong. YOU don't apply your own point. YOU have discredited it. You did it yourself. I use to think you were just ignorant - but now I know you do this on purpose, making a point that all of us know (including you) that you reject.





.

If you want to be Nestorius 2.0 then that's your call, you're just following one of the biggest heretics the church has seen.

George -


Heaven knows, I'm infamous/famous for being tenacious. But the SOLE reason I've "stuck" with these 3 - 4 posters in this thread is because Nestorianism is dangerous, destructive stuff! These promoters of Nestorianism MAY be unaware of the theology here, unaware of the history here.... indeed, their teachers (maybe even pastors) are unaware of this. But they are (perfectly) echoing Nestorius and promoting Nestorianism - that horrible, destructive heresy.

I use to think they did so innocently. So many Protestant pastors have little training and so can do little training, so some are just unawares. And those unaware are likely to parrot past errors (unaware). BUT we have had the confession now that they HAVE read the posts to them and so know about their heresy, know about Nestorius, know about Nestorianism - and promote it anyway.

This heresy CANNOT go uncorrected. Even though nothing any of us have posted has done any good: they seem locked into their heresy.



The other point ("can't use titles not found in the Bible") is just silly and laughable, and one they don't believe or use anyway. AMAZING they keep persistently harping on a point they have proven - over and over - they don't accept or believe or use.




- Josiah




.

 

[Alithis]

Lol just stop, the Alithis version of the Bible does not count.

If you want to be Nestorius 2.0 then that's your call, you're just following one of the biggest heretics the church has seen.

i have never even heard of the guy .
if your saying its only my version of the scriptures that doesnt cal mary that.. could you please show me where it is in your version .

i searched the greek one and nope its not there either .



the fact remains and has always been

God never gave mary the title mother of god ..
man did .it's not from the scriptures .

i wonder if any of you will be honest about that simply fact

 

[Josiah]

i have never even heard of the guy .

This is not honest.


You have been told REPEATEDLY about Nestorius (the heretic that you parrot, echo perfectly). You have been TOLD about Nestorianism (that horrible, uber dangerous heresy that nearly destroyed Christianity) many times. And while you first stated that you don't read posts directed to you (so we HOPED you were just ignorant), you then insisted that you DO read them. So, you are not being honest here. You HAVE heard about Nestorius. You HAVE read about Nestorianism. You KNOW you are verbatim parroting and promoting this horrible heresy. Over and over and over.



You have been told that the two teachings were are verbatim, directly from Scripture: Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13. And you have been persistent in saying the teachings of the title are therefore "wrong, false and blasphemy" Over and over and over. For over SIXTY PAGES of your posts.


You have been told that the substitution you have for the teachings of this title (Mary bore Jesus, this Jesus may correctly be called "GOD") comes lock, stock and barrel from Nestorius. Indeed, his whole heresy STARTED with this title. You are parroting - VERBATIM - his heresy, with the same words, the same thoughts. You are echoing this horrible, horrible heretic VERBATIM. You (and 2 or 3 other "Evangelicals") are violating not only Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 BUT also the First, Third and Fifth Ecumencial Councils (that Protestants tend to accept) AND instead, you are parroting, echoing, promoting Nestorianism (indeed, using the same words Nestorius did). YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD. Over and over and over and over and over. NOW you claim you've read the posts, so you cannot claim innocence, you cannot claim you didn't know. You have chosen to deny Scripture and the Councils. You have chosen to promote Nestorianism - one of the most dangerous and destructive heresies in history. You have chosen to do so in spite of being warned and corrected. Over and over and over. For SIXTY PAGES. By several of us.


Now, maybe your pastor(s) is teaching you Nestorianism. Maybe he is aware of his heresy and maybe he is just ignorant (some "Evangelical" teachers have shockingly little education). But YOU cannot claim to be ignorant or unaware - now that you have admitted to reading what has been posted to you.


The ONLY reason I've been persistent in this thread is because the HERESY you (and 2 or 3 others here) are echoism and promoting is DANGEROUS, DESTRUCTIVE stuff that nearly destroyed Christianity. THREE Ecumenical Councils (3 of the 7) dealt with it. It's very scary to see modern "Evangelicals" (3 or 4 just in this thread, just here at CH) promoting it, resurrecting it. ECHOING verbatim Nestorius. EVEN starting this over the identical issue Nestorius did. Very scary. Very dangerous. Such bold proclaimation of horrible heresy CANNOT go uncorrected - even if you don't care or you don't read (whichever it is).

God never gave mary the title mother of god ..
man did

God never gave any book the title "Bible" either - man did. But you use that title, so you don't believe your own silly point.

And the Bible DOES teach the two teachings of this title. Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 for example. You know this. You don't care. You insist on parroting that horrible heretic Nestorius instead. You follow Nestorius, you reject Scripture. Knowingly.


Scary.





- Josiah

 

[Alithis]

This is not honest.


You have been told REPEATEDLY about Nestorius (the heretic that you parrot, echo perfectly). You have been TOLD about Nestorianism (that horrible, uber dangerous heresy that nearly destroyed Christianity) many times. And while you first stated that you don't read posts directed to you (so we HOPED you were just ignorant), you then insisted that you DO read them. So, you are not being honest here. You HAVE heard about Nestorius. You HAVE read about Nestorianism. You KNOW you are verbatim parroting and promoting this horrible heresy. Over and over and over.



You have been told that the two teachings were are verbatim, directly from Scripture: Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13. And you have been persistent in saying the teachings of the title are therefore "wrong, false and blasphemy" Over and over and over. For over SIXTY PAGES of your posts.


You have been told that the substitution you have for the teachings of this title (Mary bore Jesus, this Jesus may correctly be called "GOD") comes lock, stock and barrel from Nestorius. Indeed, his whole heresy STARTED with this title. You are parroting - VERBATIM - his heresy, with the same words, the same thoughts. You are echoing this horrible, horrible heretic VERBATIM. You (and 2 or 3 other "Evangelicals") are violating not only Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 BUT also the First, Third and Fifth Ecumencial Councils (that Protestants tend to accept) AND instead, you are parroting, echoing, promoting Nestorianism (indeed, using the same words Nestorius did). YOU HAVE BEEN TOLD. Over and over and over and over and over. NOW you claim you've read the posts, so you cannot claim innocence, you cannot claim you didn't know. You have chosen to deny Scripture and the Councils. You have chosen to promote Nestorianism - one of the most dangerous and destructive heresies in history. You have chosen to do so in spite of being warned and corrected. Over and over and over. For SIXTY PAGES. By several of us.


Now, maybe your pastor(s) is teaching you Nestorianism. Maybe he is aware of his heresy and maybe he is just ignorant (some "Evangelical" teachers have shockingly little education). But YOU cannot claim to be ignorant or unaware - now that you have admitted to reading what has been posted to you.


The ONLY reason I've been persistent in this thread is because the HERESY you (and 2 or 3 others here) are echoism and promoting is DANGEROUS, DESTRUCTIVE stuff that nearly destroyed Christianity. THREE Ecumenical Councils (3 of the 7) dealt with it. It's very scary to see modern "Evangelicals" (3 or 4 just in this thread, just here at CH) promoting it, resurrecting it. ECHOING verbatim Nestorius. EVEN starting this over the identical issue Nestorius did. Very scary. Very dangerous. Such bold proclaimation of horrible heresy CANNOT go uncorrected - even if you don't care or you don't read (whichever it is).





God never gave any book the title "Bible" either - man did. But you use that title, so you don't believe your own silly point.

And the Bible DOES teach the two teachings of this title. Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 for example. You know this. You don't care. You insist on parroting that horrible heretic Nestorius instead. You follow Nestorius, you reject Scripture. Knowingly.


Scary.





- Josiah

yeh whatever --you knew i meant before i saw the name on this thread -i had never heard of him and still have not looked him up and wont bother to .you seem to forget

i only read the first sentence or so of your posts in this thread -assume it the same old same old and dont read further
its just rambling on to avoid admitting ..the glaringly obvious

hey - God never calls mary the "mother of God ".. only man kind does God never did, never has ,and never will .
sorry if i miss the rest of the waffle ..i don't read your posts past the first sentance -0whichoften consist of a false accusation or misrepresented meaning .

 

[Alithis]

the fact remains and has always been

God never gave mary the title mother of god ..
man did .it's not from the scriptures .

i wonder if any of you will be honest about that simply fact

 

[Josiah]

the fact remains and has always been

God never gave mary the title mother of god ..
man did .it's not from the scriptures .

i wonder if any of you will be honest about that simply fact

So you just don't care that you are protesting Scripture and promoting a very, very dangerous heresy. THAT says much.


I'll consider your argument against using titles God never did when you stop using titles that God never did. YOU obviously think your point is absurd and you obviously don't apply it. So there's no reason for us to consider it. I agree with, your whole premise here is silly.




.

 

[Alithis]

So you just don't care that you are protesting Scripture and promoting a very, very dangerous heresy. THAT says much.


I'll consider your argument against using titles God never did when you stop using titles that God never did. YOU obviously think your point is absurd and you obviously don't apply it. So there's no reason for us to consider it. I agree with, your whole premise here is silly.




.

lol yeah whatever with your false accusations
i'm not protesting anything that is written what so ever ..your just trying to launch a personal attack against 'me ' to distract from the point .

the fact remains and has always been

God never gave mary the title mother of god ..
man did .it's not from the scriptures .

i wonder if any of you will be honest about that simply fact..?
no ? any takers? ..no?
any honest folks out there ???????

 

[Josiah]

the fact remains and has always been

God never gave mary the title mother of god ..
man did .it's not from the scriptures .

1. The fact remains: You have called the teachings "false, wrong and blasphemy" even though they both come DIRECTLY from Scripture (Matthew 1:18, Titus 2:13). You just don't care that both are solidly, directly Scriptural.


2. The fact remains: You knowingly are promoting a horrible, destructive, condemned heresy - Nestorianism. Echoing, parroting Nestorius. https://carm.org/nestorianism You know it. You don't care.


3. The fact remains: You OFTEN use titles that God never used, that never appear in Scripture. So you think it's silly, absurd, wrong to insist we cannot use titles that God has not. You condemn YOURSELF when you insist we can't use such terms. You just don't care that you shoot yourself in the foot, that not even you believe or follow your silly rule there.







.

 

[Alithis]

it is a perpetual misrepresentation of no edification from any corner .

An argument I've heard quite often in Mariology because when people seem to honor Mary as the Mother of God, people say she was just a random woman selected. And if so, then many why did God need to use a random woman to reveal His Son?

the key word here is in this OP .. "an argument " and it has been in a spirit of argumentativeness with which i have behaved ever since i entered the thread .
last night the lord spoke to me of it and troubled me greatly .so that i renounced that spirit of argumentativeness and casts it from me (resist the devil and he wil flee from you )
afterward in the night i awoke and the peace of God returned to me and i resigned to turn from the practice
i feel no need to retract anything but to repent from the argumentative nature of it all. - and cease .
it has been a foolish pursuit on my part , rude ,arrogant, inconsiderate ,disrespectful of the feelings of others and utterly lacking in love . therefore it can only be concluded that such an argumentative nature is NOT of God and i have been utterly guilty of walking in it . the Lord has forgiven me and i pray all others here can also .

 

[Josiah]

Alithis,

Did the Lord tell you to repent of the Nestorianism you have been parroting and promoting?

Did the Lord tell you that the teachings of Matthew 1:18 and Titus 2:13 are NOT "false, wrong and blasphemy" but actually correct?



Actually, your "spirit" in speech has been of zero concern to me. Or interest. It's your condemnation of the two teachings here and your promotion of Nestorianism that have been my sole concern and the ONLY issues I've addressed. The ONLY reason I've stuck with this for the over 60 pages of it is the absolute necessity of NOT permitting Nestorianism to go uncorrected, to let it "pass" or simply "winked" at. As I've said all along, I could care less what titles people may or may not use for pretty much anything or anyone, but blatant heresy DOES concern me.
.

 

[Alithis]

no argument no defense -cease means cease .

 

[Josiah]

I'll post for the record:

The two teachings of this title ARE true, as specifically directed stated in Matthew 1:18 and Titus. It is NOT true that they are "false, wrong and blasphemy."

Nestorianism IS false, it is an extremely dangerous, destructive, heretical, unbiblical, unorthodox teaching. It is NOT true and should NOT have been so consistently defended and promoted in this thread.


It's good ONE voice has decided to stop these wrong statements (although that one continues their position!), but they remain wrong.




.

 

[TurtleHare]

The good thing about Mary is that honoring her isn't necessary for our salvation but the bad thing is when there is heresy and the truth of Jesus gets corrupted because of issues surrounding Mary and that's a shame. In looking through a lot of this thread I have found that the majority of the discussion is about Jesus as God and that's as it should be don't you think?

 

[Josiah]

The good thing about Mary is that honoring her isn't necessary for our salvation but the bad thing is when there is heresy and the truth of Jesus gets corrupted because of issues surrounding Mary and that's a shame. In looking through a lot of this thread I have found that the majority of the discussion is about Jesus as God and that's as it should be don't you think?

Yes.


While this is called a Marian title, it's entirely Christological. Those who know the history here know that the title springs from those supporting the Two Inseparable Natures of Christ, it's Christological.


The protest of this also was Christological. The 3 or 4 "Evangelicals" in this thread are echoing (perfectly) Nestorius, who begun his horrific heresy by denying this title - not because of Mary but because of Jesus, whose natures He insisted are separate. They are defending, promoting and advocating this destructive heresy, Nestorianism. Shamefully. I worked for a long time in this thread believing these "Evangelicals" were just ignorant here (Evangelical pastors and teachers often aren't well educated, and therefore don't well educate) BUT I no longer believe that: they've stated they have read this thread and thus they KNOW they are promoting one of the most horrible, destructive heresies in Christian history - Nestorianism. That's scary. And dangerous.




My ONLY motivation in sticking with this for over 60 pages is NOT because of Mary, NOT because I give a rip what people may or may not think about Mary, it's about CHRIST. It's about SALVATION. It's about not being silent, not winking at, not permitting the advancement and promotion of a horrible, dangerous, destructive heresy - Nestorianism, whether that's done innocently (because their pastors don't know better) or because they are actively resurrecting this heresy.


As I mentioned about 50 pages ago (lol), I've seen dozens of threads on this title at various websites, but it's always been over whether this title is at times misunderstood or even misapplied - a point I yielded way back on page one! But this is the first time I've seen the attack focused on Christ, the first time in at least a dozen years I've seen the promotion of Nestorianism, often with VERBATIM echoing of Nestorius. Very scary! Very dangerous! And to see others coming to the defense of Nestorianism - I've never witnessed that before! Has Nestorianism been resurrected in "Evangelicalism?" Has Evangelicalism drifted into this horrible, terrible, destructive heresy? Very scary!





Thank you.



- Josiah





.

 

[TurtleHare]

Do you really think they believe in Nestoriaism or is it their pride of not wanting to admit to the "title" because in their minds that means they accept all the false baggage they think is attributed to? We know that baggage is just that and isn't true because as you day it's christological

 

[Josiah]

While this is called a Marian title, it's entirely Christological. Those who know the history here know that the title springs from those supporting the Two Inseparable Natures of Christ, it's Christological.


The protest of this also was Christological. The 3 or 4 "Evangelicals" in this thread are echoing (perfectly) Nestorius, who begun his horrific heresy by denying this title - not because of Mary but because of Jesus, whose natures He insisted are separate. They are defending, promoting and advocating this destructive heresy, Nestorianism. Shamefully. I worked for a long time in this thread believing these "Evangelicals" were just ignorant here (Evangelical pastors and teachers often aren't well educated, and therefore don't well educate) BUT I no longer believe that: they've stated they have read this thread and thus they KNOW they are promoting one of the most horrible, destructive heresies in Christian history - Nestorianism. That's scary. And dangerous.




My ONLY motivation in sticking with this for over 60 pages is NOT because of Mary, NOT because I give a rip what people may or may not think about Mary, it's about CHRIST. It's about SALVATION. It's about not being silent, not winking at, not permitting the advancement and promotion of a horrible, dangerous, destructive heresy - Nestorianism, whether that's done innocently (because their pastors don't know better) or because they are actively resurrecting this heresy.


As I mentioned about 50 pages ago (lol), I've seen dozens of threads on this title at various websites, but it's always been over whether this title is at times misunderstood or even misapplied - a point I yielded way back on page one! But this is the first time I've seen the attack focused on Christ, the first time in at least a dozen years I've seen the promotion of Nestorianism, often with VERBATIM echoing of Nestorius. Very scary! Very dangerous! And to see others coming to the defense of Nestorianism - I've never witnessed that before! Has Nestorianism been resurrected in "Evangelicalism?" Has Evangelicalism drifted into this horrible, terrible, destructive heresy? Very scary!





.

Do you really think they believe in Nestoriaism

Absolutely.

I suspect the several "Evangelicals" here did not originally KNOW that their view is in fact a terrible, destructive, condemned heresy. I suspect their pastors simply are not well educated on this, and thus don't well educate on this. AND for a long time, I chose to believe they continued to promote the heresy because they weren't reading the posts directed to them (2 admitted so much). BUT now I think they do know. And don't care. They may well be Nestorians.


Scary, huh?



- Josiah

 

[Full O Beans]

Do you really think they believe in Nestoriaism or is it their pride of not wanting to admit to the "title" because in their minds that means they accept all the false baggage they think is attributed to? We know that baggage is just that and isn't true because as you day it's christological

"Christological" in itself is baggage.

 

[TurtleHare]

Do you realize what you're accusing??? That's so nuts.