Why was Mary necessary?

[MoreCoffee]

I will be content to confess my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ by remembering that he became man through the Blessed Virgin Mary who gave him birth. I will remember the words of praise spoken in the holy scriptures by her

"My soul magnifies the Lord.
And my spirit leaps for joy in God my Saviour.
For he has looked with favour on the humility of his handmaid.
For behold, from this time, all generations shall call me blessed.
For he who is great has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.
And his mercy is from generation to generations for those who fear him.
He has accomplished powerful deeds with his arm.
He has scattered the arrogant in the intentions of their heart.
He has deposed the powerful from their seat, and he has exalted the humble.
He has filled the hungry with good things, and the rich he has sent away empty.
He has taken up his servant Israel, mindful of his mercy, just as he spoke to our fathers: to Abraham and to his offspring forever." (Luke 1:46-55)​

 

[Alithis]

..

 

[Josiah]

You've already indicated that you don't read the posts of many.... and that you don't care that you are echoing, promoting, defending one of the worse heresies in the history of Christianity and that you are contradicting Titus 2:13. You don't care. You don't read. You've already noted that.

And yes, AGAIN, you echo the heretic Nestorius. You have been given many links so that you could (for yourself) note your verbatim echoing of this heresy, and be corrected. But you don't read. Because you don't care.

IMO, Christians SHOULD care about truth.... SHOULD care if they are (however innocently) advocating universally/historically denounced heresy, resurrecting one of the most destructive heresies in Christian history. Christians SHOULD be willing to be corrected. Your rubric that you YOURSELF uniquely can't be wrong and what you YOURSELF alone says equals Truth is a dangerous rubric, one that locks you into error. That alone would be tragic, but that you dirty a public website with this is dangerous - very dangerous - heresy, well....and for that single reason, I have been and will continue to be persist in not leaving your heresy uncorrected. Such horrible heresy CANNOT be left to stand uncorrected, unrenounced, capable of trapping others in his horrible heresy, opening Christianity again to the destruction this heresy does. And I have been stunned by "Evangelicals" who have come to your aid in promoting and defending this heresy (I've NEVER witnessed that - EVER, ANYWHERE) rather than also quickly and boldly renouncing Nestorianism.



I know.... you won't read this. Because don't care.



- Josiah



.

Alithis,


No one SHOULD repent for agreeing with Titus 2:13 (etc.) and the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils..... affirming the divinity of the one whom Mary bore. It is you that should repent of your echoing, promoting and defending of Nestorianism. But I know.... you don't read because you don't care.

 

[Alithis]

How many times did Jesus refer to himself as We or Us? Don't lie now and don't try to deceive.

Do your research and you shall find that Jesus is always God. He was God in the manger and God at the cross so when people are cutting and snipping away trying to make him into 2 beings since they don't understand his two natures they are making a bad mistake.

this is what you said .. now how go and study the scripture and find how the lord jesus refers to" himself" . what phrase does he use when speaking of "himself "..not when speaking of his father or of the Holy Spirit -but when speaking of himself ?

and explain that if he is GOD .. a term which encapsulates all the Godhead ..not a part of it . how is it that christ himself in then bought into subjection to the father and is always obedient to the father .. ?
but we have covered this often

we know mary is not the mother of the Godhead .. and she is not the mother of the eternal holy Spiirt and she is not the mother of the "father" .

we have all determined this conclusion . though some still refuse to say so and they refuse to acknowledge that error od calling her the mother of god ..aids the continuance of the practice of idolatry .. every time you use that title without defining clearly that she is not the mother of the godhead but then "son" ... you fool people into thinking it is ok to make statues of her ..pray to her ( to pray means to ask earnestly) to bow to her image ,to make shrines to her , to parade her statues down streets in acts of devotion and worship and continue in obvious SIN .

and you condone them and aid them in this activity by your undefined use of this erroneous title which God has never even mentioned nor given, not ever will give . its origins are from man and man alone .

you help people to continue in sin ... is this how you please the lord jesus ?

 

[Josiah]

and explain that if he is GOD .. a term which encapsulates all the Godhead ..not a part of it .

Then you insist MUCH of the Bible is "false, wrong and blasphemy." Because OFTEN, the Bible specifically labels as "GOD" one person of the Trinity, as in Titus 2:13. I know you've not read the verse, but if you ever do, you will notice this is just one of the places where Scripture labels JESUS as God .... JESUS - the same Jesus who came out of the womb of Mary.... JESUS - the same Jesus whom the Bible says is the child of Mary, whose mother is Mary.....

You reject Scripture.... you reject the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils..... you call these "false, wrong and blasphemous." BUT, in stead of Scripture, you echo and defend and promote one of the worse, one of the most dangerous, one of the most destructive heretics in the 2000 year history of Christianity - Nestorius, you verbatim echo his heresy perfectly, even apply it identically, and you defend this horrible heresy. Friend, you have it backwards. It's you and Nestorius that are "false, wrong and blasphemy" denying Christ, denying His divinity (and thus our salvation)...... it's Scripture that is correct.


BTW.... to your point that I'm on your ignore list (and should weep over that), you just PM'ed me about a post of mine, proving you DO read my posts.... you just won't discuss it PUBLICLY (only in PM's to me).

we know mary is not the mother of the Godhead .. and she is not the mother of the eternal holy Spiirt and she is not the mother of the "father" .

You've admitted that you don't read. It's OBVIOUS you haven't read Scripture (and certainly not Titus 2:13). It's OBVIOUS you have not read the MANY times several of us have tried to teach you about the horrible, destructive heresy you are verbatim echoing. And it's OBVIOUS you haven't even read the title we're discussing. IF you had READ it, you'd know what we all know: It's NOT "Mary - Mother of the Trinity." It's NOT, "Mary - Source of God." It's NOT, "Mary - Mother of the Father." It's NOT, "Mary - Mother of the Holy Spirit." IF you read things (and you've admitted you don't - and proved it for over 80 pages now), then you would KNOW we aren't discussing ANY of those absurd titles for one very simple reason: They don't exist, they never have existed, NO ONE on the planet have EVER affirmed or said them. YOU made them up. They spring from YOUR wild, amazing imagination. They don't exist.

I know you insist you don't read. And that's obvious. But if - way back on page one, 80 pages ago - IF you read things, you would have read Matthew 1:18 that teachings Mary bore Jesus and Titus 2:13 that is one of many places where this Jesus to whom Mary is His mother is specifically called "GOD." The title affirms what the Bible verbatim says. NOT any of the crazy, wild, absurd, things YOU invented and THINK we're discussing because you've never read what we are discussing. But instead of reading the title, instead of reading Scripture, instead of reading about the heresy of Nestorianism, you rather echo a horrible, terrible, destructive HERETIC - Nestorius, defending HIM while denying Christ.




.

 

[TurtleHare]

and explain that if he is GOD .. a term which encapsulates all the Godhead ..not a part of it . how is it that christ himself in then bought into subjection to the father and is always obedient to the father .. ?
\

IF He is God????????? I think we're pretty much done talking with you. You've shown your false beliefs here.

 

[TurtleHare]

Then you insist MUCH of the Bible is "false, wrong and blasphemy." Because OFTEN, the Bible specifically labels as "GOD" one person of the Trinity, as in Titus 2:13. I know you've not read the verse, but if you ever do, you will notice this is just one of the places where Scripture labels JESUS as God .... JESUS - the same Jesus who came out of the womb of Mary.... JESUS - the same Jesus whom the Bible says is the child of Mary, whose mother is Mary.....

You reject Scripture.... you reject the First, Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils..... you call these "false, wrong and blasphemous." BUT, in stead of Scripture, you echo and defend and promote one of the worse, one of the most dangerous, one of the most destructive heretics in the 2000 year history of Christianity - Nestorius, you verbatim echo his heresy perfectly, even apply it identically, and you defend this horrible heresy. Friend, you have it backwards. It's you and Nestorius that are "false, wrong and blasphemy" denying Christ, denying His divinity (and thus our salvation)...... it's Scripture that is correct.


BTW.... to your point that I'm on your ignore list (and should weep over that), you just PM'ed me about a post of mine, proving you DO read my posts.... you just won't discuss it PUBLICLY (only in PM's to me).





You've admitted that you don't read. It's OBVIOUS you haven't read Scripture (and certainly not Titus 2:13). It's OBVIOUS you have not read the MANY times several of us have tried to teach you about the horrible, destructive heresy you are verbatim echoing. And it's OBVIOUS you haven't even read the title we're discussing. IF you had READ it, you'd know what we all know: It's NOT "Mary - Mother of the Trinity." It's NOT, "Mary - Source of God." It's NOT, "Mary - Mother of the Father." It's NOT, "Mary - Mother of the Holy Spirit." IF you read things (and you've admitted you don't - and proved it for over 80 pages now), then you would KNOW we aren't discussing ANY of those absurd titles for one very simple reason: They don't exist, they never have existed, NO ONE on the planet have EVER affirmed or said them. YOU made them up. They spring from YOUR wild, amazing imagination. They don't exist.

I know you insist you don't read. And that's obvious. But if - way back on page one, 80 pages ago - IF you read things, you would have read Matthew 1:18 that teachings Mary bore Jesus and Titus 2:13 that is one of many places where this Jesus to whom Mary is His mother is specifically called "GOD." The title affirms what the Bible verbatim says. NOT any of the crazy, wild, absurd, things YOU invented and THINK we're discussing because you've never read what we are discussing. But instead of reading the title, instead of reading Scripture, instead of reading about the heresy of Nestorianism, you rather echo a horrible, terrible, destructive HERETIC - Nestorius, defending HIM while denying Christ.




.

Can you believe it, Josiah, what he wrote? I mean, seriously it just keeps getting worse and worse in this thread with the heresy!

 

[Josiah]

Can you believe it, Josiah, what he wrote? I mean, seriously it just keeps getting worse and worse in this thread with the heresy!

It's shocking.... and frightening! Not just for him but because he is publishing this heresy in public: promoting, advancing, defending, trying to resurrect this horrible, horrible heresy that nearly destroyed Christianity. And said that he doesn't care.

I care! We are not to permit horrible heresy to be taught and advanced, to let it stand. Which is why I'm being (I admit) absurdly persistent, tenacious. While we may not be able to correct this person (because he insists he doesn't care and doesn't read what is posted to him), we MUST protect Christians who come to this site and read this (should any).


As I've noted 3 or 4 times in these 81 pages, we all know this is a title that in the past 100 years or so has come to be misunderstood at times (nearly entirely among modern American "Evangelicals"). And as I said way back on page one (sic) - PAGE ONE! - we all know the misunderstanding among these tiny few modern American "Evangelicals" in the past few decades. But, while I've been involved in probably 10 or more threads on this over the past 10-12 years, it's cleared up IMMEDIATELY when these modern "Evangelicals" learn what is meant, when they realize this is very biblical, and when they realize the whole point is to repudiate what they know is a horrible, terrible heresy. When it's explained, they "get" it.... realize it's theologically and biblically okay..... and accept it in that framework. They may STILL chose to not use it (and btw, I'm in that camp too - I rarely use the title myself), but they affrim that the title is biblical, theologically sound and realize the context of Nestorianism. What has been DEEPLY DISTURBING, indeed SCARY about this discussion, this thread at CH, these "Evangelicals" is that they aren't saying "it's confusing but theologically okay" they are saying the Bible, the Councils are "false, wrong and blasmphemy" AND they are verbatim echoing, defending, promoting, trying to resurrecting that horrible, terrible heresy that ALL Christians USE to universally condemn. THAT'S what is scary! Some (perhaps most of our "Evangelicals" here) are abandoning Scripture, abanding the Creeds, abandoning the Councils - and trying to resurrect one of the worse, most destructive heresies in all Christian history. I've NEVER seen that before! And when several of us have pointed this out, what we've gotten is that they don't care that it's HERESY they are verbatim echoing (one their denomination no doubt also denounces), they DON'T CARE. DON'T CARE. Just keep verbatim echoing it.... defending it (as opposed to defending Christ).... advocating it.


:banghead:






.

 

[George]

This thread is really saddening. People are throwing a hissy fit over the term Mother of God yet deny Jesus as God. The priorities in this thread are so out of wack lol.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This thread is really saddening. People are throwing a hissy fit over the term Mother of God yet deny Jesus as God. The priorities in this thread are so out of wack lol.

What brings one to tears is that they think they are honouring God by dishonouring Blessed Mary.

 

[Lamb]

and explain that if he is GOD .. a term which encapsulates all the Godhead ..not a part of it . how is it that christ himself in then bought into subjection to the father and is always obedient to the father .. ?

Oh dear.

Of course Jesus is God. He is God come to earth for our salvation. He is God who died in our place on the cross. He is God who redeems because ONLY God could be so obedient and perfect. Denying Jesus as God turns theology away from true Christology into "me-theology" where you still feel you need to accomplish things in order to really be saved. It removes the pureness from the Gospel.

What a wonderful God we have who has done amazing things for us and continues to do so too!

 

[Josiah]

What brings one to tears is that they think they are honouring God by dishonouring Blessed Mary.

No, we have a few "Evangelicals" dishonoring CHRIST by denying His divinity, denying Titus 2:13, denying the First and Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils...... and echoing Nestorianism instead. Folks insisting that Nestorius is correct while insisting that Jesus' divinity is "false, wrong and blasphemy."


But I think you have a point here, too. Some are motivated by their ignorance and hatred of Catholicism - they FALSELY believe this title is unique to the RC Denomination, ignorant that it comes from an Ecumenical Council that their denomination ACCEPTS and that it is embraced by most NON-Catholics, too. They are just ignorant of all that. And so, since they falsely believe it's "Catholic" ergo it MUST be wrong. Okay..... anti-Catholicism is nothing new.... but echoing, promoting, advocating Nestorianism in response IS something new (at least I've never witnessed it before)..... several "Evangelicals" here parroting Nestorius in order to attack the RCC (and Christ and Christianity!), THAT'S what is very, very disturbing, very dangerous, very scary. And their chanting that they just don't CARE that they are promoting (echoing, parroting) one of THE most destructive, horrible heresies in the 2000 year history of Christianity, just don't care that they are resurrecting one of the worse heresies ever, they just don't care - THAT'S what is so disturbing about this thread. Something I've never witnessed before. It troubles me more than anything I can remember on these forums since I began participating about 12-13 years ago. It doesn't bring me to tears, it scares the daylights out of me!



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

 

[Lamb]

No, we have a few "Evangelicals" dishonoring CHRIST by denying His divinity, denying Titus 2:13, denying the First and Third and Fifth Ecumenical Councils...... and echoing Nestorianism instead. Folks insisting that Nestorius is correct while insisting that Jesus' divinity is "false, wrong and blasphemy."


But I think you have a point here, too. Some are motivated by their ignorance and hatred of Catholicism - they FALSELY believe this title is unique to the RC Denomination, ignorant that it comes from an Ecumenical Council that their denomination ACCEPTS and that it is embraced by most NON-Catholics, too. They are just ignorant of all that. And so, since they falsely believe it's "Catholic" ergo it MUST be wrong. Okay..... anti-Catholicism is nothing new.... but echoing, promoting, advocating Nestorianism in response IS something new (at least I've never witnessed it before)..... several "Evangelicals" here parroting Nestorius in order to attack the RCC (and Christ and Christianity!), THAT'S what is very, very disturbing, very dangerous, very scary. And their chanting that they just don't CARE that they are promoting (echoing, parroting) one of THE most destructive, horrible heresies in the 2000 year history of Christianity, just don't care that they are resurrecting one of the worse heresies ever, they just don't care - THAT'S what is so disturbing about this thread. Something I've never witnessed before. It troubles me more than anything I can remember on these forums since I began participating about 12-13 years ago. It doesn't bring me to tears, it scares the daylights out of me!



Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah

If I had the time, I'd love to go through and count how many posts are actually ABOUT Mary in this thread (and who wrote them) as opposed to how many posts are about GOD (and who wrote them). I bet the results would be extremely interesting and insightful.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Hasn't this thread had enough crazy heresies ... maybe the original poster will ask for a shut-down before we get any more.

 

[George]

I'm closing this thread, but it can not go without saying that the many directions this thread has taken was surprising, appalling, and a bit heart breaking. If you disagree, please support your points with Scripture or content. If you need to attack to support your point, then don't post. The pitting against other denominations and Christians isn't necessary and doesn't make you look cool.

Closed.