Did the Jewish prisoner who wrote this go to hell?

[Lucian Hodoboc]

On the wall of a concentration camp cell in Nazi Germany, an unknown prisoner wrote, “If there is a God, He will have to beg for my forgiveness”.

What do you think happened to the prisoner after their death?

Did God beg for their forgiveness and then, after being forgiven by the person, God welcomed them to heaven?

Did God send the person to hell for criticizing God's decision of allowing them to experience said suffering in this life? Did God plan for this person to suffer horribly in this life and then condemn them to an eternity of suffering because they didn't endure the suffering according to God's will?

 

[Bluezone777]

I can't say and neither can anyone else as we can only speculate.

God by default is in need of nothing and no one and is not going to beg anyone for anything. This man is consumed by pride and that is why he said what he said.

This man if he stayed on the course he was on would be in hell for refusing the free gift of salvation and eternal life made possible by repentance and belief in Jesus Christ's sinless life and death on the cross for all sin. His words and actions did not send him to hell only demonstrate whether he is on the broad or narrow road.

 

[Lamb]

Only God knows what happened to the prisoner. Did he believe in Jesus' sacrifice for the forgiveness of his sins? If he rejected the one true God, who is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, then he damned himself.

God is Holy AND just. He doesn't have to apologize for the sins of man, and that's what happened at the Holocaust, man sinned and killed millions.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Did he believe in Jesus' sacrifice for the forgiveness of his sins?

He was a Jewish prisoner. What do you think?

He doesn't have to apologize for the sins of man,

But what about the fact that He forces us into existence in a world where we can experience these "sins of man" when He could simply not create us in the first place?

 

[Lamb]

He was a Jewish prisoner. What do you think?


But what about the fact that He forces us into existence in a world where we can experience these "sins of man" when He could simply not create us in the first place?

If the Jewish prisoner rejected Jesus, he damns himself because of unbelief.

The horrors of this world may be bad, but being with the Lord for all eternity trumps that! We won't feel pain or have hardships as believers when we die because God promises the believer eternal life with Him.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The horrors of this world may be bad, but being with the Lord for all eternity trumps that!

Be that as it may, do you understand that not experiencing the horrors of this world and also being with the Lord for all eternity would trump that? Do you also understand that this would be possible for an omnipotent God?

 

[Lamb]

Be that as it may, do you understand that not experiencing the horrors of this world and also being with the Lord for all eternity would trump that? Do you also understand that this would be possible for an omnipotent God?

The blame of the horrors of this world is not on God, but on Adam and Eve who first sinned because they were influenced by Satan.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The blame of the horrors of this world is not on God, but on Adam and Eve who first sinned because they were influenced by Satan.

You're changing the topic. I'm not saying that the horrors of this world are God's fault (although they partially are, but that's a whole different discussion). I'm stating that God could have prevented the horrors of this world and could have spared us from being created. That's what omnipotence allows Him to do. And that's what omnibenevolence requires.

You're stating that the eternal bliss in the afterlife for the believers will more than compensate for the suffering of this world. Alright, I'll grant you that as true, but it still doesn't answer the issue that the same bliss could have been given to everyone without said bliss being preceded by suffering.

No amount of bliss, not even eternal one, can compensate for unnecessary suffering. And all suffering is unnecessary in a world governed by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent Being.

 

[Lamb]

You're changing the topic. I'm not saying that the horrors of this world are God's fault (although they partially are, but that's a whole different discussion). I'm stating that God could have prevented the horrors of this world and could have spared us from being created. That's what omnipotence allows Him to do. And that's what omnibenevolence requires.

You're stating that the eternal bliss in the afterlife for the believers will more than compensate for the suffering of this world. Alright, I'll grant you that as true, but it still doesn't answer the issue that the same bliss could have been given to everyone without said bliss being preceded by suffering.

No amount of bliss, not even eternal one, can compensate for unnecessary suffering. And all suffering is unnecessary in a world governed by an omnipotent and omnibenevolent Being.

You're saying God SHOULD have done something because you don't understand why He allows horrors to happen. God doesn't have to explain Himself. The ultimate goal is eternal salvation where there will be no more horrors to live through. That trumps anything that happens on this earth.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

You're saying God SHOULD have done something because you don't understand why He allows horrors to happen.

Wrong. I don't have to understand what an omnipotent and omnibenevolent Being's reasons for doing something is in order to understand the logical contradiction. Whatever goal God might have, whatever goal He might want to achieve by allowing the horrors to happen and by forcing us to partake in a world where these horrors happen, no matter how unimaginable said goal is for us, that same goal could be achieved in another way that doesn't involve these horrors happening. Because omnipotence allows for any goal to be achieved in any way as long as it doesn't go against logic. And omnibenevolence requires that any goal must be achieved with minimum suffering or no suffering at all.

God doesn't have to explain Himself.

Actually He does if He wants to truthfully hold to the "light without shadow" title.

The ultimate goal is eternal salvation where there will be no more horrors to live through.

Why is that the ultimate goal? That doesn't sound like a reasonable ultimate goal for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. The ultimate goal for a God with these characteristics should be the absence of suffering in all time and space ever.

That trumps anything that happens on this earth.

Be that as it may, it doesn't explain why suffering is necessary for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. I feel like you're not getting my point. You keep saying that God will make things perfect again. I'm asking you why He allowed them to become imperfect for a while, considering that He's all powerful and all good.

 

[Lamb]

Wrong. I don't have to understand what an omnipotent and omnibenevolent Being's reasons for doing something is in order to understand the logical contradiction. Whatever goal God might have, whatever goal He might want to achieve by allowing the horrors to happen and by forcing us to partake in a world where these horrors happen, no matter how unimaginable said goal is for us, that same goal could be achieved in another way that doesn't involve these horrors happening. Because omnipotence allows for any goal to be achieved in any way as long as it doesn't go against logic. And omnibenevolence requires that any goal must be achieved with minimum suffering or no suffering at all.


Actually He does if He wants to truthfully hold to the "light without shadow" title.


Why is that the ultimate goal? That doesn't sound like a reasonable ultimate goal for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. The ultimate goal for a God with these characteristics should be the absence of suffering in all time and space ever.


Be that as it may, it doesn't explain why suffering is necessary for an omnipotent and omnibenevolent God. I feel like you're not getting my point. You keep saying that God will make things perfect again. I'm asking you why He allowed them to become imperfect for a while, considering that He's all powerful and all good.

It sounds like you think you know better than God?

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

It sounds like you think you know better than God?

No, it doesn't. I do not know better than God. And, as long as both God and I operate under the laws of logic, I don't have to know more than God.
Does God operate under the laws of logic?
If yes, then all I have to know are the laws of logic in order for me to realize when His actions contradict said laws.
If God doesn't operate under the laws of logic, then how can we understand or have a relationship with a being who is beyond logic? Logic is all we have in order to understand reality.

 

[Lamb]

No, it doesn't. I do not know better than God. And, as long as both God and I operate under the laws of logic, I don't have to know more than God.
Does God operate under the laws of logic?
If yes, then all I have to know are the laws of logic in order for me to realize when His actions contradict said laws.
If God doesn't operate under the laws of logic, then how can we understand or have a relationship with a being who is beyond logic? Logic is all we have in order to understand reality.

You're operating under "human logic". God is above that since He is the Almighty one. So all of your laws of logic, are below what God's logic is, and while you think He's a meanie, God is gracious, just and merciful, giving us eternal life for trusting in Him so we may have eternal life. I guarantee that eternal life with God is much better than hell that awaits the unbeliever. That hell is worse than anything here on earth that brings pain and horror.

 

[Albion]

He was a Jewish prisoner. What do you think?


But what about the fact that He forces us into existence in a world where we can experience these "sins of man" when He could simply not create us in the first place?

You've asked that a number of times before, and as has been posted in reply by others, we do not know.

But to put it more precisely, we are not given to know for certain. Not in this life.

Divine revelation/scripture is what we all would go by when seeking an answer, but that is God's revelation to mankind for certain purposes, not to explain everything in the universe in print form or to explain in detail everything about the afterlife.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

You're operating under "human logic". God is above that since He is the Almighty one. So all of your laws of logic, are below what God's logic is, and while you think He's a meanie, God is gracious, just and merciful, giving us eternal life for trusting in Him so we may have eternal life. I guarantee that eternal life with God is much better than hell that awaits the unbeliever. That hell is worse than anything here on earth that brings pain and horror.

If God doesn't operate under "human logic", then there is no possible way for us to know / to understand anything about Him because our only tool of assessing reality is logic/reason. If God doesn't operate under the same logic as we do, we cannot state whether He is good or bad. We cannot state anything about Him. I cannot say that He acts wrongly and you cannot state that He acts rightly. All statements about Him would be arbitrary guesses at most. It would be like trying to measure temperature using only a plastic ruler.

we do not know.

But to put it more precisely, we are not given to know for certain. Not in this life.

Then the claim that He is light without darkness (1 John 1:5) is false, which would mean that the Bible is not inerrant, which means that I have no reason to trust it. The only tool I have to assess reality (to my knowledge) is reason/logic, and this tool leads me to the understanding that God's behavior is flawed. The Bible, the book He allegedly inspired, says that we should not lean on our own understanding, but since by using the only tool He gave me (logic), I have reached the conclusion that the Bible is not inerrant, then I am left without a reason to trust the advice that I should not lead on my own understanding.

In other words, if I use logic/reason, Christianity is self-defeating. You're asking me to abandon reason in order to trust the feelings given by prayer. I am not sure if that is a good approach to life. Feelings have led me to make bad decisions more often than reason has.

 

[Lamb]

If God doesn't operate under "human logic", then there is no possible way for us to know / to understand anything about Him because our only tool of assessing reality is logic/reason. If God doesn't operate under the same logic as we do, we cannot state whether He is good or bad. We cannot state anything about Him. I cannot say that He acts wrongly and you cannot state that He acts rightly. All statements about Him would be arbitrary guesses at most. It would be like trying to measure temperature using only a plastic ruler.


Then the claim that He is light without darkness (1 John 1:5) is false, which would mean that the Bible is not inerrant, which means that I have no reason to trust it. The only tool I have to assess reality (to my knowledge) is reason/logic, and this tool leads me to the understanding that God's behavior is flawed. The Bible, the book He allegedly inspired, says that we should not lean on our own understanding, but since by using the only tool He gave me (logic), I have reached the conclusion that the Bible is not inerrant, then I am left without a reason to trust the advice that I should not lead on my own understanding.

In other words, if I use logic/reason, Christianity is self-defeating. You're asking me to abandon reason in order to trust the feelings given by prayer. I am not sure if that is a good approach to life. Feelings have led me to make bad decisions more often than reason has.

The Holy Spirit guides us into the truth of God, who He is and what He does for us. Scriptures tell us that nonbelievers see the Gospel as foolishness, that's because they use human logic to try to rationalize it all.

 

[Lamb]

@Lucian Hodoboc my pastor has given me some answers to the things you've asked here.

He said that there is nothing in the bible to indicate that God needs to beg forgiveness.

A person is sent to hell for unbelief, not criticizing
God. I don’t recommend criticizing God, but we are human people, fallible human people, and
sometimes our emotions can get the better of us. God does not plan for anyone to suffer. He
wants all people to be saved, no one to be damned. While God allows suffering to happen
(think of Joseph in the well, then in Potiphar’s house, then in prison, one valley after another.
And...”yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death (not death, just the shadow
of it) I will fear no evil, for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.”
And I don’t think there is one particular way for a person to go through suffering. I cannot say
to someone else, “You’re suffering wrong. You’re not doing it right.” It’s like grief. My neighbor
grieves one way, I grieve another way.

Lucian wrote: No amount of bliss, not even eternal one, can compensate for unnecessary suffering.
And all suffering is unnecessary in a world governed by an omnipotent and
omnibenevolent Being.
I think this gets back to God as puppetmaster, and ignores our
problem with original sin. God is powerful. God is good. People demonstrate their power in
disobedience and rebellion. The loving father could have told the prodigal son, “You are going
to stay here. You will march right up to your room! You will leave when I tell you to leave. I
know what’s best and you don’t.” I’m assuming the prodigal son was not a toddler and was late
teens, early 20s.
In a confusing reality, God allows things to happen that I would never allow to happen. But...
he is God and I am not. The story of Job enters in.

Lucian wrote:
Because omnipotence allows for any goal to be achieved in any way as long as it doesn't
go against logic. And omnibenevolence requires that any goal must be achieved with
minimum suffering or no suffering at all.
Be that as it may, it doesn't explain why suffering is necessary for an omnipotent and
omnibenevolent God. I feel like you're not getting my point. You keep saying that God will
make things perfect again. I'm asking you why He allowed them to become imperfect for
a while, considering that He's all powerful and all good.
Yes, God is good. God is
powerful. He is also merciful, just, kind, faithful, wrathful, patient.
There are some things that God does not reveal to us. How did He does the work of creation?
We don’t entirely know. How did the Flood occur, with water coming from above and below?
We don’t entirely know. How did Jesus perform all of his miracles? We don’t entirely know.
What we do know is that the Lord is Lord of all things. He chastens. He heals. We seek to
pick up our cross and follow Jesus.

 

[Lucian Hodoboc]

The Holy Spirit guides us into the truth of God, who He is and what He does for us.

Sure He does...

Scriptures tell us that nonbelievers see the Gospel as foolishness, that's because they use human logic to try to rationalize it all.

Why would a God who wants all to be saved inspire writings that are seen as foolishness by people who have a skeptical nature, considering that we live in a world in which the father of lies roams around trying to trick people into believing all sort of lies? Wouldn't a God who wants people to be saved base His relationships with His people on facts and reason, you know, on things that the father of lies could not easily falsify?