Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[prism]

So apparently you deny that Christs death Justified them He died for before God prior to their believing ? And thats all I have been doing, that those who Christ died for are Justified before God before believing, thats why I can say you deny it, which I consider unbelief

Again, Scripture doesn't say who Jesus died for, so we can't say who was justified at His death.

 

[prism]

Romans 3:23-24
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

This is the perfect verse to describe objective justification. We all have sinned and we all are justified. Now, does that benefit us without faith? No. Verse 25 explains:

"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

Romans 8:30
And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Does that mean that 'objectively', ALL will be glorified?

 

[Lamb]

Romans 8:30
And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Does that mean that 'objectively', ALL will be glorified?

No, as I explained
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

 

[prism]

No, as I explained
"God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

So 'until the reception by Faith', objective justification does nothing but gives false hope to the unconverted?
IOW, another doctrine of man, more speculation.

 

[Lamb]

So 'until the reception by Faith', objective justification does nothing but gives false hope to the unconverted?
IOW, another doctrine of man, more speculation.

Justification is a legal term. Objectively God has made a legal declaration, but until man has faith, it does not benefit him. That doesn't mean the declaration isn't true. We can't be justified unless it first was true by Christ's death and resurrection. Faith clings to that which is true (Christ's death and resurrection).

 

[Albion]

So 'until the reception by Faith', objective justification does nothing but gives false hope to the unconverted?.

No. That isn't the belief.

Several of us have already explained the orthodox understanding in posts on this very thread, using just every way of phrasing it, so I'm wondering what is left to do.

 

[brightfame52]

Because that word (justification) is the cause of so much confusion, let's word the matter differently.

Mankind was redeemed by Christ's sacrifice. It may have been in God's mind to do this from long before the first century AD, but to say that it was already accomplished prior to the Incarnation, is clearly opposed to Scripture. As a result of that act, we individuals are eligible to be saved depending on whether or not we accept, by Faith, Christ's redemptive work.

Did you understand the question ?

 

[brightfame52]

I made a mistake in the wording of one of those sentences. While I was correcting it, you were preparing your reply. Please read my corrected version of that post (896) now as well as post #898 for the answer to what I believe about this matter.

Do you believe everyone Christ died for was Justified before God solely by His death alone ?

 

[brightfame52]

Again, Scripture doesn't say who Jesus died for, so we can't say who was justified at His death.

He died for the ungodly didnt He, thats what scripture said, so you lack understanding. Rom 5:6

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Now please answer the question, were these ungodly for whom Christ died, justified before God by His death before they believed, and while they were ungodly ? Yes or No

 

[brightfame52]

@Lamb

Justification is a legal term. Objectively God has made a legal declaration, but until man has faith, it does not benefit him.

So do you believe that the ones Jesus Christ died for are Justified legally before God prior to their believing ? Yes or no please

 

[prism]

Justification is a legal term. Objectively God has made a legal declaration, but until man has faith, it does not benefit him. That doesn't mean the declaration isn't true. We can't be justified unless it first was true by Christ's death and resurrection. Faith clings to that which is true (Christ's death and resurrection).

Would you try to explain to an unsaved person about how they are objectively justified?

 

[prism]

No. That isn't the belief.

Several of us have already explained the orthodox understanding in posts on this very thread, using just every way of phrasing it, so I'm wondering what is left to do.

I've not heard of Anglicans espousing objective justification,...only Lutherans (esp. LCMS). Is that what you hold to?

 

[prism]

He died for the ungodly didnt He, thats what scripture said, so you lack understanding. Rom 5:6

Since all are ungodly (Rom 3), He therefore died for all! So much for particular/limited atonement.

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. Now please answer the question, were these ungodly for whom Christ died, justified before God by His death before they believed, and while they were ungodly ? Yes or No

Scripture never says a person is justified apart from faith.

 

[brightfame52]

Since all are ungodly (Rom 3), He therefore died for all! So much for particular/limited atonement.


Scripture never says a person is justified apart from faith.

So did He Justify before God all for whom He died prior to their faith or believing in Him ? Yes or No please

 

[Lamb]

@Lamb



So do you believe that the ones Jesus Christ died for are Justified legally before God prior to their believing ? Yes or no please

Jesus died for all according to scripture:

Romans 3:23-24
"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."

So yes, objectively we see that all are justified prior to believing. But we also see in the following verse that it is to be received by faith, so that means that only those who receive it by faith will benefit from it.

Would you try to explain to an unsaved person about how they are objectively justified?

When I tell them about justification being declared, that's giving it to them objectively. When I tell them it applies to them, that's subjective.

 

[Josiah]

Would you try to explain to an unsaved person about how they are objectively justified?

@prism
@brightfame52

It seems to ME this thread is going round and round.....

IF the desire is to echo what the whole of what Scripture states, then yes - Christ died for ALL people, yes that general justification thus EXISTS for all people. The Bible is not being dishonest when it says justification is THERE for all... it's real, it's present, it's there. For everyone. This is why we can proclaim the Gospel to ALL, why we can do evangelism and mission work... we CAN say "Jesus died for YOU."

But the error (actually heresy) Brightfame suggests is that this justification (atonement) is applied to the individual APART from faith... so that the individual has personal justification whether they apprehend/trust/rely on this atonement for them OR NOT. This is not only unbiblical but directly contradictory of Scripture. Traditional/orthodox Christianity embraces that FAITH is essential. This is not the impossible thing some insist is the case. If I make pancakes for my boys for breakfast - then that breakfast exists and it's for them. But if one or both don't eat it, it doesn't benefit them. If he doesn't benefit, that does not prove that ergo the pancakes never existed (the problem with the TULIP view of limited atonement) and if he does benefit, that doesn't prove ergo he doesn't need to eat the pancakes (the error Brightfame seem to make).

Scripture (and Christianity) holds that God loves all, Christ died for all.... but that faith is essential and not all have faith. The variable is not Christ, it's faith. And it's not Christ OR faith in Him - it's both. Personal justification (Christ's atoning work applied to an individual) requires both.

Traditional/classical/biblical Christianity teaches that personal justification (the point that an individual is justified at that time) is Sola Gratia - Solus Christus - Sola Fide - Soli Deo Gloria. As ONE, united, inseparable, singular whole (any part missing means justification isn't there). "For God so loved the world (Sola Gratia) that He gave His only begotten Son (Solus Christus) that whosoever believes in Him (Sola Fide) has everlasting life (God alone accomplishes this, this is God's gift and blessing - Soli Deo Gloria). The Bible and Christianity does NOT teach, "For God so loved just an unknowable few people that He gave just to those unknown few His only begotten Son and IF he did this for someone, therefore that unknowable one has personal justification whether he spits in Jesus' face and reject all this or believe, it's irrelevant cuz faith is irrelevant and meaningless to personal justification.

There ARE individual Scriptures that only mention Christ's death or only mention faith but as we look at the whole of Scripture, we see that BOTH are essential. It's not either/or, it's both/and. Even if a singular verse doesn't specifically mention both (Scripture does).

I've not heard of Anglicans espousing objective justification,...only Lutherans (esp. LCMS). Is that what you hold to?

As I understand it, all but a tiny few radical Calvinists teach objective justification (and whenever they read John 3:16). And some radical TULIP Calvinist do too but like our friend here, they embraced the heresy that faith is irrelevant and therefore invented Universalism (The doctrine that Christ died for all and thus all are saves cuz faith is irrelevant). The moniker "objective justification" is not used by all but the doctrine is taught pretty universally. It seems to me to deny objective justification is to flat out deny John 3:16 (and zillions of other Scriptures).



Blessings!


- Josiah



.

 

[brightfame52]

@Lamb

So yes, objectively we see that all are justified prior to believing

Okay then they are Just/righteous before God, that's a benefit from Christ death. They cannot have any sin laid to their charge Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Those whom Christ died for, and rose again, Christ is at the right hand of God making intercession for them, which intercession secures unto them every spiritual blessing they need to bring them to Glory.

So you either have to believe in limited atonement, or universalism, or you just dont know and understand what you believe.

 

[Josiah]

So you either have to believe in limited atonement, or universalism

@brightfame52

... only if we echo your heresy and denounce Scripture by insisting that faith is irrelevant to personal justification.

See post 916



.

 

[prism]

So did He Justify before God all for whom He died prior to their faith or believing in Him ? Yes or No please

Yes, in eternity:
No, in time.

 

[prism]

When I tell them about justification being declared, that's giving it to them objectively. When I tell them it applies to them, that's subjective.

So it does no good until it has been applied by faith.