Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Messy]

I think you are confusing me with Brightflame, we are justified 'in time' when we believe, not before. I believe it is based on God's election.

Oh never mind then. I misunderstood.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Right, but would that mean the Mohammedans and Jews are justified when they invoke God's name?

God knows, let us leave it to God to say at the last judgement.

 

[prism]

God knows, let us leave it to God to say at the last judgement.

God has already told us in His Word...

Acts 4:12 NASB95
And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

(In vs 10 they were referring to Jesus)

 

[brightfame52]

One People promised to be Justified in Christ !

Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Justification in Christ the LORD was only promised to one particular people, Israel or the Seed of Israel !

These verses all apply to the Seed of Israel !

Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus [The Lord]:

Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Rom 5:9

Much more then, being now justified by his blood[The Lord], we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 8:30

Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

This is the Seed of Israel. Paul calls them a Seed here Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

What Seed ? What Promise ? This Seed and Promise Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory. 11

 

[brightfame52]

Understanding Justification by Faith !

When scripture states that believers are Justified by Faith or made Righteous by Faith, it does not mean that their act of faith/ believing made them Justified and or Righteous, or that the act itself is their Righteousness , however it doeth mean that the object of our Faith, Namely Christ, hath Justified us and made us Righteous. You see, God hath made Christ unto us Righteousness 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

So therefore faith in its act cannot at the same time be our Righteousness Rom 4:5,9

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

In fact, The Gospel reveals or makes known our Righteousness to our Faith Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Now that Righteousness of God in Vs 17 that is revealed to Faith, is that same Righteousness of God for those of us Christ was made sin for in 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So its an contradiction to understand Faith as an act of ours, to be reckoned as our Righteousness and or Justification, but rather as it persuades us that the object of our Faith, whom is Christ, has been made unto us Righteousness / Justification 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

 

[brightfame52]

Understanding Justification by Faith ! 2

Again,

When scripture states that believers are Justified by Faith or made Righteous by Faith, it does not mean that their act of faith/ believing made them Justified and or Righteous, or that the act itself is their Righteousness , however it doeth mean that the object of our Faith, Namely Christ, hath Justified us and made us Righteous.

You see, if Faith be not taken to mean its object being our Righteousness instead of our act of it being our Righteousness as the antichrist followers sayeth it means, then the very grounds for contrasting Justification by Faith from Justification by our works is eliminated and comes to nought, and even Paul has contradicted himself along with the scripture, in that Faith / believing is an act of ours, and no less a work we do !

So Faith looks at the object which is our Righteousness, that being the results of the Person and Work of Christ on our behalf, having satisfied for us all of God's Law and Justice and having had His Righteousness laid to our charge , these facts being revealed in the Gospel of our Salvation Rom 1:16-17; Eph 1:13 ! 11

 

[Albion]

Understanding Justification by Faith ! 2

Again,

When scripture states that believers are Justified by Faith or made Righteous by Faith, it does not mean that their act of faith/ believing made them Justified

That's exactly what it means. The only issue is whether or not they can come to Faith by their own striving or whether God makes that possible.

even Paul has contradicted himself along with the scripture, in that Faith / believing is an act of ours, and no less a work we do !

If you have to dismiss Scripture like that, the word of God, when you're deciding on your theory, the theory cannot be very credible.

But beyond that fact, it is also the case that you simply do not understand what is meant by "works."

The term does not refer to just anything which requires the moving of some of our body parts (walking, speaking, etc.). Those things may "take some work" we might say--if we were speaking of ordinary activity--but that's not the theological and Scriptural meaning of the word "works."

 

[brightfame52]

That's exactly what it means. The only issue is whether or not they can come to Faith by their own striving or whether God makes that possible.

If you have to dismiss Scripture like that, the word of God, when you're deciding on your theory, the theory cannot be very credible.

But beyond that fact, it is also the case that you simply do not understand what is meant by "works."

The term does not refer to just anything which requires the moving of some of our body parts (walking, speaking, etc.). Those things may "take some work" we might say--if we were speaking of ordinary activity--but that's not the theological and Scriptural meaning of the word "works."

You dont believe the truth. You condition Justification on your act, and not fully on Christs actions.

 

[Albion]

You dont believe the truth. You condition Justification on your act, and not fully on Christs actions.

...and that's all you ever say after you've been shown your errors. If your theory about the Bible being unreliable was a valid one, you'd be able to defend it.

 

[brightfame52]

...and that's all you ever say after you've been shown your errors. If your theory about the Bible being unreliable was a valid one, you'd be able to defend it.

Thats the only thing to say, you keep conditioning Justification on man, and reject the Truth that Christs death Justified all for whom He died before Gods law and Justice, your rejection of that is unbelief.

 

[Albion]

Thats the only thing to say

Because you cannot defend your theory?

you keep conditioning Justification on man,

No, misrepresenting my belief like that isn't the way for you to do it.

 

[brightfame52]

Because you cannot defend your theory?

No, misrepresenting my belief like that isn't the way for you to do it.

You are making your belief known, Im just agreeing with it. Dont you deny that Christ death Justified all for whom He died ? Dont you condition Justification before God on mans act of believing/faith ?

 

[Messy]

You are making your belief known, Im just agreeing with it. Dont you deny that Christ death Justified all for whom He died ? Dont you condition Justification before God on mans act of believing/faith ?

Believing is not an act. If it was, an atheist could decide to simply believe.

 

[Messy]

-

 

[Albion]

You are making your belief known,

Apparently not, considering that you completely reversed it in your mind and in your reply to me.

Im just agreeing with it. Dont you deny that Christ death Justified all for whom He died ?

No.

Dont you condition Justification before God on mans act of believing/faith ?

It's been explained many times on these forums that man does not come to Faith on his own.

 

[Albion]

Believing is not an act. If it was, an atheist could decide to simply believe.

...which is the very theme that James is driving home in his Epistle. When he says that man is not saved by Faith only, he means that man is not saved by merely claiming to have Faith, formally aligning himself with Christianity, and nothing more than that.

True Faith is lifechanging, so if there is no change, there obviously is not Faith.

People mistake this point, however, and conclude that it means that by living according to the moral code Jesus taught it means that they earn salvation through compiling a sufficient amount of "attaboys" from God!

 

[brightfame52]

Believing is not an act. If it was, an atheist could decide to simply believe.

Believing is an act.

 

[brightfame52]

Apparently not, considering that you completely reversed it in your mind and in your reply to me.


No.


It's been explained many times on these forums that man does not come to Faith on his own.

Ive read your explaining, so thats what Im posting , what you explained, equating to denying that Christ death alone Justified them He died for, and conditioning Justification before God on mans faith, believing. Now how am I misrepresenting you, thats what you have posted !

 

[Messy]

Believing is an act.

No it's a gift. It's something only the spirit can do. Not the flesh or soul. You can't produce it. It only comes when the Spirit works and the Gospel, the Word is preached. Paul says: how hear without a preacher? Faith comes by hearing the Word of Christ. And without God our spirit is seperated from Him, thus dead and has to be revived. You get a new heart and you get the measure of faith from God.

 

[Albion]

Believing is not an act. If it was, an atheist could decide to simply believe.

That's right. People who think that any movement of any body part, including brain functions, amounts to an "act," then also think that it's the equivalent of a "good work." Then they're adamant in denying what they call "works," supposedly in order to uphold "faith."

But that's not what "works" means. We've heard from people who oppose Baptism because they call it a "work," and all they're referring to is the fact that the person would have to walk into the church in order to reach the baptistry!