Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

Wishing won't make it so, but I'll get back with you if you ever attempt a basis for your thinking about this matter.

Its simple, a act is a work, and if you condition your Justification of an act of yours, that act became the meritorious cause of your salvation/justification. Dont matter how you deny it !

 

[Albion]

Its simple, a act is a work,

You've said that a couple of times, but it proves nothing just because you say it.

As I mentioned in my last post, give us something of substance and I'll be back.

 

[Messy]

Its simple, a act is a work, and if you condition your Justification of an act of yours, that act became the meritorious cause of your salvation/justification. Dont matter how you deny it !

The bride has to say yes. He can't just take Himself a bride.
Tell Rebekkah that saying yes, getting baptized or praying the sinner's prayer is a work that gets people saved. What she did was a real work to pass the test, giving all those camels a drink and she said: yes I will go. Wow what a work, saying yes. Do you want me to do your garden? Yes. I'm busy a month, lousy hard work to fix that thing and then you say: I did it or I caused it, cause I said yes.
Or: I did a work cause I believed you were gonna do it. Seriously? You give yourself the glory for all the work I did? This is totally hypothetical. People can believe all they want. I'm too lazy to even lay a new plastic grass mat on my balcony. I hate gardening.
My brother likes it. He does the garden alone now, cause dad is in a home and mom can't do it anymore. Now their neighbours came. LOL one said to my mom: oh he really likes gardening doesn't he? He really enjoys it. That's nice. He can do it for us too. Haha. Big faith, but the answer is nope. See where that gets you. You can believe all you want. If the other one refuses to do all the work for you, too bad. Faith alone is not gonna save you. Jesus became Man. He died for us. He kept the law. He passed all the tests. He didn't sin. He took our sins in His body. He did all the work.

 

[brightfame52]

Col 2:13 and Justification !

Col 2:13

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

This scripture speaks to Justification before faith or believing ! All for whom Christ died, dying for their sins /offences that had been charged unto Him, Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

The word trespasses and offences are the same word from the original paraptōma:

I.
to fall beside or near something

II.
a lapse or deviation from truth and uprightness
A.
a sin, misdeed

So to be included is the orginal trespass in Adam, as man in him was made upright Ecc 7:29

29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man['adam ] upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

That it includes Adam's sin also is seen here Rom 5:15

But not as the offence [by adam], so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And so He died as their Surety and Representative, and when He arose, He rose as the same, as their Surety and representative, so much so that its said / written that they arose with Him, or they were quickened together with Him ! Peter wrote of His resurrection 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Its a quickening, and the same word is used in Col 2:13 just with the prep syn which means " with"

So when He was quickened from the dead as our Surety Head, those He represented were quickened together from the dead with Him , and so in Rom 4:25 it is stated clearly that He was quicken / raised for /because of their Justification !

Now the word Justification, the greek word dikaiōsis means:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

Which is an equivalent to forgiven Col 2:13 ! Rom 4:25 can say as well this:

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again because we have been forgiven of those offences !

So Christ's being risen from the dead is an evidence and proof positive of that, and the death that was due to our sins Rom 6:23, has been put away, abolished, and so constituting the forgiveness of our sins; so the resurrection of Christ is evidence that all for whom He died are forgiven/ Justified before they believe ! To deny this is to deny the very evidence of the resurrection, which is unbelief ! No one can be a believer and deny the resurrection and what it evidences as the accomplishment of Christ's death !

 

[brightfame52]

You've said that a couple of times, but it proves nothing just because you say it.

As I mentioned in my last post, give us something of substance and I'll be back.

It may not prove it to you, but thats not necessary for it to be true. To believe is an act, something done.

 

[brightfame52]

The bride has to say yes. He can't just take Himself a bride.
Tell Rebekkah that saying yes, getting baptized or praying the sinner's prayer is a work that gets people saved. What she did was a real work to pass the test, giving all those camels a drink and she said: yes I will go. Wow what a work, saying yes. Do you want me to do your garden? Yes. I'm busy a month, lousy hard work to fix that thing and then you say: I did it or I caused it, cause I said yes.
Or: I did a work cause I believed you were gonna do it. Seriously? You give yourself the glory for all the work I did? This is totally hypothetical. People can believe all they want. I'm too lazy to even lay a new plastic grass mat on my balcony. I hate gardening.
My brother likes it. He does the garden alone now, cause dad is in a home and mom can't do it anymore. Now their neighbours came. LOL one said to my mom: oh he really likes gardening doesn't he? He really enjoys it. That's nice. He can do it for us too. Haha. Big faith, but the answer is nope. See where that gets you. You can believe all you want. If the other one refuses to do all the work for you, too bad. Faith alone is not gonna save you. Jesus became Man. He died for us. He kept the law. He passed all the tests. He didn't sin. He took our sins in His body. He did all the work.

Its simple, a act is a work, and if you condition your Justification of an act of yours, that act became the meritorious cause of your salvation/justification. Dont matter how you deny it !

 

[Albion]

It may not prove it to you, but thats not necessary for it to be true. To believe is an act, something done.

Breathing is also ''something done,'' but it won't forgive your sins.



.

 

[Messy]

Its simple, a act is a work, and if you condition your Justification of an act of yours, that act became the meritorious cause of your salvation/justification. Dont matter how you deny it !

Okay. I don't care. If you don't have works your faith is dead anyway. I just didn't get saved because I was so fabulously keeping Moses' law, which is all Paul said. You're saved by grace through faith and that not from yourself, so noone should boast. Abraham was made righteous by faith. He had to do something to show he had faith. He was ordered to kill Isaac.
Your theology leaves out any act from man, as if there is no free will and it's one big puppet play with God deciding He wants to save this one and not that one, so He dies for this one and not that one and the Bible says no such thing. Your theology makes God out to be harsh and all powerfull, going against someone's will, but Jesus cried.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

 

[Albion]

Your theology leaves out any act from man, as if there is no free will and it's one big puppet play with God deciding He wants to save this one and not that one, so He dies for this one and not that one and the Bible says no such thing. Your theology makes God out to be harsh and all powerfull, going against someone's will, but Jesus cried.

You've made an important point there. If it were really as our friend has asserted, much of the Gospels would not say what they do. There would be no call to repentance. Jesus would not be doing that himself, nor would there be any reason for him to suffer and die, since it would all be over and done with ages upon ages earlier.

Luke 13:3--
"...And you will perish, too, unless you repent of your sins and turn to God." --Jesus

 

[brightfame52]

Breathing is also ''something done,'' but it won't forgive your sins.



.

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

 

[brightfame52]

Okay. I don't care. If you don't have works your faith is dead anyway. I just didn't get saved because I was so fabulously keeping Moses' law, which is all Paul said. You're saved by grace through faith and that not from yourself, so noone should boast. Abraham was made righteous by faith. He had to do something to show he had faith. He was ordered to kill Isaac.
Your theology leaves out any act from man, as if there is no free will and it's one big puppet play with God deciding He wants to save this one and not that one, so He dies for this one and not that one and the Bible says no such thing. Your theology makes God out to be harsh and all powerfull, going against someone's will, but Jesus cried.

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Its simple, a act is a work, and if you condition your Justification on an act of yours, that act became the meritorious cause of your salvation/justification. Dont matter how you deny it !

 

[Albion]

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

No. It's something that's necessary, but not necessarily meritorious.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing that Man can do which is worthy of him receiving eternal life in return. That's why God, out of his love and mercy, did it for us.

 

[brightfame52]

No. It's something that's necessary, but not necessarily meritorious.

As a matter of fact, there is nothing that Man can do which is worthy of him receiving eternal life in return. That's why God, out of his love and mercy, did it for us.

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

 

[Albion]

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

That's illogical...or else you don't understand the meaning of "meritorious."

meritorious

adjective

1. Deserving reward or praise; having merit.
2. Possessing merit; deserving of reward or honor; worthy of recompense; valuable.
3. Deserving of merit or commendation; deserving reward.

You, with your notion that God saved his Elect few long before their births and that there is nothing needed thereafter (the sacrifice of the Cross, good works performed by humans, or even Faith ), should know that we are not able to perform any action that merits or earns us salvation.

merit

noun

1. Superior quality or worth; excellence.
2. A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue.
3. Demonstrated ability or achievement.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

 

[brightfame52]

That's illogical...or else you don't understand the meaning of "meritorious."

meritorious

adjective

1. Deserving reward or praise; having merit.
2. Possessing merit; deserving of reward or honor; worthy of recompense; valuable.
3. Deserving of merit or commendation; deserving reward.

You, with your notion that God saved his Elect few long before their births and that there is nothing needed thereafter (the sacrifice of the Cross, good works performed by humans, or even Faith ), should know that we are not able to perform any action that merits or earns us salvation.

merit

noun

1. Superior quality or worth; excellence.
2. A quality deserving praise or approval; virtue.
3. Demonstrated ability or achievement.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

 

[Albion]

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

Obviously not. We are often required to do something or other in order to "get" something we want, but fulfilling the terms of that demand does not in any way make what we do be "meritorious."

Would you, for example, argue that driving up to the gas pumps when your tank is low constitutes a "meritorious" act? Hopefully, not. Does the station owner start to think of you from that point forward as a close friend? Do you get the gasoline for free? Well, no. And if you've forgotten the definition, see post #854.

 

[brightfame52]

Obviously not. We are often required to do something or other in order to "get" something we want, but fulfilling the terms of that demand does not in any way make what we do be "meritorious."

Would you, for example, argue that driving up to the gas pumps when your tank is low constitutes a "meritorious" act? Hopefully, not. Does the station owner start to think of you from that point forward as a close friend? Do you get the gasoline for free? Well, no. And if you've forgotten the definition, see post #854.

If one conditions Justification before God on something they did, that thing they did was a meritorious work toward their Justification.

 

[Albion]

You didn't read the definition?

 

[prism]

Obviously not. We are often required to do something or other in order to "get" something we want, but fulfilling the terms of that demand does not in any way make what we do be "meritorious."

Would you, for example, argue that driving up to the gas pumps when your tank is low constitutes a "meritorious" act? Hopefully, not. Does the station owner start to think of you from that point forward as a close friend? Do you get the gasoline for free? Well, no. And if you've forgotten the definition, see post #854.

I think you are overreaching. Salvation is a free gift, your examples don't apply.
One's motive for doing what they do is key here.
Do I do in order to get, or because I have already been given?

 

[Albion]

I think you are overreaching. Salvation is a free gift, your examples don't apply.

When a person hasn't followed the whole of the conversation, misunderstanding can easily follow.

Those examples of mine concerned acts that are meritorious, and it was Brightfame who argued that any action that your mind or body can do amounts to a "work" such as Catholics believe contribute to salvation. I contended that it's only acts considered by the person or his church to have merit that count, not just any and all movements of some body part.

He rejected the whole idea of works in favor of a direct act of forgiveness by God. I, on the other hand, believe with most Protestants that it is by Faith alone, and not any supposedly meritorious deeds we may do, that God's offer of salvation is activated. NEITHER OF US (or you as well) believes that the performance of good deeds is meritorious in the process of salvation.

In other words, my "examples" DO apply.

However, they were given in hopes of correcting Brightfame's view, NOT the belief of someone else such as a member of a church that teaches salvation by Faith + Works.

Better yet, just forget the whole thing since it was settled before you came in.

One's motive for doing what they do is key here.

That would be part of it, but I hope you realize that someone could assume that a certain action would be meritorious in God's eyes...but be mistaken about that.

For instance, some Christians think that it's possible to pray a deceased loved one out of Purgatory, but that belief doesn't at all mean that it IS possible to do that...or that there even is a Purgatory!