Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

In order to understand Romans 5:10-11, we need to set aside the altered version of Romans as presented here by brightfame and consider instead the plain words of Holy Scripture as recorded in just about any version of the Bible you can pick up in the bookstore..

Doing so, we find Romans 5:10 and 11 teaching the following--

5:10-11​

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

It is perfectly evident from these verses (which you chose) that we are justified because of Jesus' sacrifice, not by some divine decree separated from it, and also that we have received it "NOW," meaning that the believers who were addressed by this Epistle did not receive that reconciliation BEFORE their own lifetimes and before Christ died on the Cross.

Did you understand the message of the post ?

 

[Albion]

Did you understand the message of the post ?

If it would help you, I could put God's word into even bigger red letters.

1) Through the death of his son.

2) We have NOW received the reconciliation.




.

 

[brightfame52]

If it would help you, I could put God's word into even bigger red letters.

1) Through the death of his son.

2) We have NOW received the reconciliation.




.

So did you ?

 

[brightfame52]

Everyone Christ died for is by His death/blood alone Justified in the sight of God Rom 5:9,19 even though they are not yet Justified by Faith. You see one whom Christ died for does not need to be Justified by Faith in order to be Justified before God or in His sight, for to be Justified by faith is only to benefit the Justifed one in knowing of his or her Justification before God, for it is only a necessary consequence of having been Justified before God by the sole obedience of Christ Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Here made Righteous and Justification are the same !

 

[brightfame52]

The time of their Justification before God ?

What is, for those Christ died for, what is the time of their Justification before God ?

For those Christ died for, they are Justified before God, when God see's and accepts Christ's blood for the full satisfaction of all their sins against His Law and Justice; for that ransom blood shed for them did set them free from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13 and did purge them from al guilt of their sins Heb 1:3 and presents them for Christ's blood sake, blameless, unreprovable in His sight Col 1:21-22

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

And these results are are solely done by HIMSELF Heb 1:3, through the body of His Flesh,

No other causes of collaboration were needed or used to bring about these blessed and merciful results ! 11

 

[brightfame52]

The time of their Justification before God ? 2

Before those Christ died for ever believe a thing, and while they are by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3 Yet in the Knowledge of God, those for whom He died were Justified before God, when within Himself He had already determined not to impute sin unto them, that it should be imputed to Christ and that He should die for their sins, and so it is revealed in the word of reconciliation 2 Cor 5:19

19 To wit, that God was in Christ [In the Eternal Purpose Eph 3:11], reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

By this, God in His Mind had determined ages and ages ago, from everlasting, to inflict Eternal Vengeance and Justice for their sins on Christ, but not only that, He correlatively determined to accept them as Righteous, having bestowed upon them or clothed them with the Righteousness of His Son, so is the implication of 2 Cor 5:21

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

All these known Transactions where known and affirmed in the Mind of God from before the foundation Acts 15:18

18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

Ps 33:11

11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Would not these things be considered the Thoughts [intentions, purposes, designs] of His Heart ? When would have these thoughts originated in the Mind of the Eternal One ?

Isa 14:24

The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand: 11

 

[prism]

It’s hard, if not impossible, to attach a ‘time’ to the activity of an Eternal Being.
an example…

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Or,
How can we say the time of their justification before God?

 

[brightfame52]

The time of their Justification before God ? 3


Justification is simply by the will of God; some things are so simply because its the Will of God to be so; Paul wrote at times 2 Cor 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Eph 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,

2 Tim 1:1

Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,

And since we know that it is God who Justifieth Rom 8:33

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Then those whom He Justifieth are so according to His Will; Now in this Will of God, it has been from before the world began, and His Will not to punish the Elect for their sins, this must be because in His Eternal Purpose in Christ, He was appointed by the Will of God to die for their sins from before the foundation 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The fact that He was foreordained before the foundation, makes manifest God's Will before the foundation !

Christ according to the will of God in the Eternal Purpose was slain already for their sins Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

By His will He redeemed them from the curse of the Law Gal 3:13 and from its punishment.

By this decretive will alone, those Christ should die for are in the Mind and Will of God Justified from all punishment and wrath 1 Thess 1:10 due to their sins, beginning in adam their natural federal head;

God's absolute will not to punish them Christ in time would die for, is the essence of Him Justifying them in His Own Mind; This is True because that which was in God's Mind to secure the Elect from His Wrath, in that they were discharged from their sins and punishment due, can rightly be called Justification before God !

 

[Albion]

God's absolute will not to punish them Christ in time would die for, is the essence of Him Justifying them in His Own Mind;

This is True because that which was in God's Mind to secure the Elect from His Wrath, in that they were discharged from their sins and punishment due, can rightly be called Justification before God !

If that's your personal theory, then it is. But as has already been shown, God's word explains the real process and says it plainly--Through the death of his son, we have now received reconciliation.

Note that it was through the event we call the crucifixion, not through any intention on the part of the Son or the Father at some other time, that we were reconciled. At the time when this event took place.

That's it.

Reconciliation in the Bible: It's Meaning & Why We Need It

But what is reconciliation, what does the Bible say we should do about it, why do we need it, and what does it actually look like in real life? Reconciliation has much to do with transformation; it’s the moving from a place of separation, hurt, and brokenness to a place of healing, wholeness...

www.biblestudytools.com

 

[prism]

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The fact that He was foreordained before the foundation, makes manifest God's Will before the foundation !

Christ according to the will of God in the Eternal Purpose was slain already for their sins Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

My point was the concept 'before' is meaningless coming from an Eternal Being. He is using speech which condescends to us finite beings. The expression 'before' is an anthropomorphism

 

[Albion]

Then those whom He Justifieth are so according to His Will; Now in this Will of God, it has been from before the world began, and His Will not to punish the Elect for their sins, this must be because in His Eternal Purpose in Christ, He was appointed by the Will of God to die for their sins from before the foundation 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

The fact that He was foreordained before the foundation, makes manifest God's Will before the foundation !

This Bible passage clearly indicates that it was God's will and intention that a Savior be sent, but NOT that humans who would be reconciled to Him thereby were named/identified prior to the sacrifice of Christ.

See that the verses you quoted say "20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" and "The fact that He was foreordained...."

The words in red here refer to the Savior, the Son of God, not to any member of the Elect being predestined or to the events which activated God's intentions.

 

[brightfame52]

If that's your personal theory, then it is. But as has already been shown, God's word explains the real process and says it plainly--Through the death of his son, we have now received reconciliation.

Note that it was through the event we call the crucifixion, not through any intention on the part of the Son or the Father at some other time, that we were reconciled. At the time when this event took place.

That's it.

Reconciliation in the Bible: It's Meaning & Why We Need It

But what is reconciliation, what does the Bible say we should do about it, why do we need it, and what does it actually look like in real life? Reconciliation has much to do with transformation; it’s the moving from a place of separation, hurt, and brokenness to a place of healing, wholeness...

www.biblestudytools.com

I cant make you see the Truth, I just witness to it.

 

[brightfame52]

My point was the concept 'before' is meaningless coming from an Eternal Being. He is using speech which condescends to us finite beings. The expression 'before' is an anthropomorphism

Doesnt change anything.

 

[brightfame52]

This Bible passage clearly indicates that it was God's will and intention that a Savior be sent, but NOT that humans who would be reconciled to Him thereby were named/identified prior to the sacrifice of Christ.

See that the verses you quoted say "20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world" and "The fact that He was foreordained...."

The words in red here refer to the Savior, the Son of God, not to any member of the Elect being predestined or to the events which activated God's intentions.

He was foreordained for a redemptive purpose, to die for the sins of the elect, so He was already charged with their sins prior to His coming in the flesh, in fact as fars as God the Father was concerned, He was slain from the foundation of the world Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

And what was He slain for ? For the sins of the Elect, so they had been charged to Him, and if to Him, not to them, hence their Justification from sin.

 

[prism]

Doesnt change anything.

Except it may not mean what you imagine it means.

 

[brightfame52]

Except it may not mean what you imagine it means.

And then maybe it does. Then what ?

 

[Albion]

I cant make you see the Truth, I just witness to it.

And I've simply presented the word of God to you as the unimpeachable answer to the issue you've taken an interest in.

Of course, doing that requires the reader to accept the Scripture as it is, without rewriting it.

And then maybe it does (mean what you say it means). Then what ?

In that case, it becomes necessary to determine which meaning is the correct one.

You haven't done that in your many posts on this subject, but instead you've simply stipulated that what you would like the verses to mean must be correct, period,

 

[brightfame52]

And I've simply presented the word of God to you as the unimpeachable answer to the issue you've taken an interest in.

Of course, doing that requires the reader to accept the Scripture as it is, without rewriting it.


In that case, it becomes necessary to determine which meaning is the correct one.

You haven't done that in your many posts on this subject, but instead you've simply stipulated that what you would like the verses to mean must be correct, period,

I cant help you cant see the truth.

 

[Albion]

I cant help you cant see the truth.

Want to give that sentence another try?

But considering that I already know the truth straight from God's word -- and also advised you about how to find it yourself -- you can relax.






.

 

[brightfame52]

Secured us from wrath !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Justification by the blood of Christ, has secured from Divine wrath, all for whom Christ died. This security from the wrath of God has nothing to do with mans faith, or repentance, but it is solely an accomplisment of the Blood of Christ; All for He died have been delivered from the wrath to come at the day of Judgment 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Job 21:30

30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

Rev 6:17

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:18

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Back up in 1 Thess 1:10 it reads with the definite article" The Wrath" its the Last Day of wrath commencing Judgement Day ! All for whom Christ died has been delivered from this wrath !