Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[brightfame52]

So that's your guess.

Now here is what the word of God says on the subject--

Romans 3:22: “...This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe."

Nothing in the passage you cited says that "Faith is but [i.e. only, merely] the evidence to the soul of its justification."

The righteousness the Justified have is revealed, made known by Faith. The Justification made by Christ was imputed to the Justified sinner, before the sinner was born as a sinner.

 

[brightfame52]

Well it is true. Now faith is the evidence of things not seen. You hear the Gospel, faith comes by hearing the Word, a faith plant starts to grow if the soil is not stone and the faith you get from God is the evidence that you're saved and justified from that moment on.

Thats error. A person Christ died for has been Justified before God before they are born, they are born Justified. Then later on in their life God gives them the New Birth with the Gift of Faith to believe it.

 

[Albion]

The righteousness the Justified have is revealed, made known by Faith. The Justification made by Christ was imputed to the Justified sinner, before the sinner was born as a sinner.

Do you also insist that if the person you describe did not then come to Christ but instead remained an atheist or pagan, that he still would be guaranteed salvation??

Or is it your view that this would be impossible, and all the entreaties made by Jesus and his Apostles, as recorded in the Bible, for people to come to Christ and be saved were a waste of time and effort since these people had already been chosen for salvation?

 

[Messy]

The righteousness the Justified have is revealed, made known by Faith. The Justification made by Christ was imputed to the Justified sinner, before the sinner was born as a sinner.

So it was imputed to someone who didn't exist yet. How? What do you even mean with justification? He sees you just as if you were holy?

What is justification? What does it mean to be justified? | GotQuestions.org

What is justification? How can I be justified before God? Why, on the basis of Christ’s death, can God declare us to be righteous?

www.gotquestions.org

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy.

Hm. That reminds me of what Michael Brown said about charismatics who say God sees you as holy when you live in blatant sin as a christian. God is not blind. Look how He talks to the churches in Revelation. When you get saved you become justified, simply because you get a new heart and the old one is removed.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you also insist that if the person you describe did not then come to Christ but instead remained an atheist or pagan, that he still would be guaranteed salvation??

Or is it your view that this would be impossible, and all the entreaties made by Jesus and his Apostles, as recorded in the Bible, for people to come to Christ and be saved were a waste of time and effort since these people had already been chosen for salvation?

Huh, now you speaking nonsense

 

[brightfame52]

messy

So it was imputed to someone who didn't exist yet

Yes. Just like Christ died for their sins before they existed. If Christ died for your specific sins, was it before you were born or after you were born ?

 

[Josiah]

Brightfame52

You are simply confusing objective and subjective justification.... Horribly.

 

[Josiah]

The righteousness the Justified have is revealed, made known by Faith.

Yet you quote a verse that states it is "given through faith." Not just made know but GIVEN. If it's GIVEN through faith, then they didn't have it before faith or apart from faith.

You are confusing objective and subjective justification.

 

[Messy]

Brightfame52

You are simply confusing objective and subjective justification.... Horribly.

What on earth is that? Lets ask Google.

What is Objective Justification?

steadfastlutherans.org

Objective justification is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world for the sake of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.” Subjective justification means that the benefits of God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ become yours through faith.

LOL So we all agree?
Lets get baptized in the Chicago river.

 

[Albion]

Huh, now you speaking nonsense

What do you have against verbs?

 

[Josiah]

What is Objective Justification?

steadfastlutherans.org

Objective justification is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world for the sake of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.” Subjective justification means that the benefits of God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ become yours through faith.

LOL So we all agree?

My post was to brightfame52

Yup, it certainly seems you and I agree on objective and subjective justification.



.

 

[brightfame52]

What on earth is that? Lets ask Google.

What is Objective Justification?

steadfastlutherans.org

Objective justification is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world for the sake of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.” Subjective justification means that the benefits of God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ become yours through faith.

LOL So we all agree?
Lets get baptized in the Chicago river.

False, to say that the world as in all mankind is objectively Justified before God is false, that means the whole world of mankind is objectively, legally saved, and that's a false teaching. Now the elect of God were objectively Justified by the death of Christ, and sometime in their lifetime they will be subjectively Justified in their own mind and find peace by Faith, by receiving, apprehending that Justification they already had objectively by the blood of Christ.

 

[Messy]

False, to say that the world as in all mankind is objectively Justified before God is false, that means the whole world of mankind is objectively, legally saved, and that's a false teaching. Now the elect of God were objectively Justified by the death of Christ, and sometime in their lifetime they will be subjectively Justified in their own mind and find peace by Faith, by receiving, apprehending that Justification they already had objectively by the blood of Christ.

Oh yes sorry.

 

[brightfame52]

Oh yes sorry.

See objective Justification is made known or revealed by Faith to the Justified one and then it is subjective Justification,

Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The righteousness of God here is objective Justification by imputed righteousness, and then its revealed to God given Faith.

The word revealed is the greek word apokalyptō:

1. to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown,

Its in the passive voice, the subject is being acted upon, receiving the knowledge of something, that would be their objective Justification by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

 

[Josiah]

False, to say that the world as in all mankind is objectively Justified before God is false, that means the whole world of mankind is objectively, legally saved,

Wrong. Because for that objective justification to be applied, there must be faith. You are AGAIN simply denying the role of faith. Yes, Jesus died for everyone (as the Bible repeatedly, specifically, flat-out states.)... but that does not mean ergo all are personally justified since not all have faith.

Now the elect of God were objectively Justified by the death of Chri

Of course, but the Bible never states that Christ died ONLY for them. What it states, over and over again, specifically, verbatim, flat-out, is that He died for all, for everyone. Justification is THERE for everyone. Faith receives/applies that to the individual.

, and sometime in their lifetime they will be subjectively Justified in their own mind and find peace by Faith, by receiving, apprehending that Justification they already had objectively by the blood of Christ.

Thus your heresy that there is personal justification apart from faith.



.

 

[Albion]

Our friend owns a couple of dictionaries but has no apparent understanding of any expression or statement that is not to be taken in a super-literal sense. And yet much of the Bible was written and is properly understood in a figurative or colloquial way.

Even worse, the translation of a single word doesn't get at the real meaning of any passage--not any more than taking a single verse out of context (as his posts often do).

In short, there is not likely to be any willingness there to learn what the Holy Bible is actually saying to us, no matter how many times we try to get through.

 

[Messy]

Wrong. Because for that objective justification to be applied, there must be faith. You are AGAIN simply denying the role of faith. Yes, Jesus died for everyone (as the Bible repeatedly, specifically, flat-out states.)... but that does not mean ergo all are personally justified since not all have faith.


Of course, but the Bible never states that Christ died ONLY for them. What it states, over and over again, specifically, verbatim, flat-out, is that He died for all, for everyone. Justification is THERE for everyone. Faith receives/applies that to the individual.


Thus your heresy that there is personal justification apart from faith.
.

I hardly see the difference with what Lutheranism says. He only says God declares em righteous. I thought he said they are righteous when they're clearly not. Declare em just, reconciled is fine with me and the not elect are never declared just.
For instance that text about the end time. To deceive, if it were possible, even the elect. So He calls them elect, the remnant etc.

Objective justification is “God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ upon the world for the sake of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection.” Subjective justification means that the benefits of God’s verdict of ‘not guilty’ become yours through faith.

This is exactly what he says, except that God doesn't say not guilty to those who don't accept Him, which He indeed never says.

You get saved when you believe your old man died with Jesus on the cross. You believe that you died on the cross and He carried your sins and it happens because it happened then and you believe it.

 

[Albion]

FWIW, that perception seems "off" to me. But maybe I'm not following someone else's wording.

For one thing, we don't die on the cross with Jesus. He died for us on the cross.

And the two justifications being debated are about 1) God deeming someone righteous and 2) that person accepting the offer by Faith. It is neither correct to say that anyone is saved without Faith or that a person is saved through Faith but is solely responsible for it because he decided to believe, strictly on his own.

 

[Messy]

FWIW, that perception seems "off" to me. But maybe I'm not following someone else's wording.

For one thing, we don't die on the cross with Jesus. He died for us on the cross.

And the two justifications being debated are about 1) God deeming someone righteous and 2) that person accepting the offer by Faith. It is neither correct to say that anyone is saved without Faith or that a person is saved through Faith but is solely responsible for it because he decided to believe, strictly on his own.

That's Romans 6.

knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, [c]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Albion]

That's Romans 6.

knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be [a]done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been [b]freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, [c]reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

All right, but this is exactly what I read, and for me it's a little bit different--

You get saved when you believe your old man died with Jesus on the cross.

You believe that you died on the cross and He carried your sins and it happens because it happened then and you believe it.