Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Albion]

You say stay away from Derek Prince. I'm like he has great teachings. I'm like stay away from Calvin. You're like he has good preachings. You may be right. Jesus even said they should listen to the pharisees, but not do as they do and watch the leaven.

Your message made me think of other such preachers, and it's understandable why the churches are concerned at a Christian becoming too much a fan of any 'one-man band' like many of these guys are who are free from any oversight, publish books, appeal for funds, maybe start their own TV network, and so forth.

These may be wonderful speakers and come across as able to make clearer various complicated issues, but they (and I know that I'm generalizing here and not meaning to refer to any certain individual) are mainly giving their own, personal view of things. They sometimes admit to that, but not always. And what they are teaching is often not the normal interpretation of Scripture or standard Christian doctrine.

And then the person who is attracted to this or that evangelist can tend to enlarge his reach and begin to move between different speakers. Uncertainty about which inspiring teacher is right then sets in. I've seen it happen again and again. Or else some hybrid view of Jesus' life or teachings develops.

By the way, I myself do "like" some of them, but it's not the type who demythologize or clarify doctrine (as they would have it be) but instead give inspirational messages that primarily encourage their audiences or try to make sense of life's everyday problems as opposed to controversial doctrines.

 

[Messy]

Your message made me think of other such preachers, and it's understandable why the churches are concerned at a Christian becoming too much a fan of any 'one-man band' like many of these guys are who are free from any oversight, publish books, appeal for funds, maybe start their own TV network, and so forth.

These may be wonderful speakers and come across as able to make clearer various complicated issues, but they (and I know that I'm generalizing here and not meaning to refer to any certain individual) are mainly giving their own, personal view of things. They sometimes admit to that, but not always. And what they are teaching is often not the normal interpretation of Scripture or standard Christian doctrine.

And then the person who is attracted to this or that evangelist can tend to enlarge his reach and begin to move between different speakers. Uncertainty about which inspiring teacher is right then sets in. I've seen it happen again and again. Or else some hybrid view of Jesus' life or teachings develops.

By the way, I myself do "like" some of them, but it's not the type who demythologize or clarify doctrine (as they would have it be) but instead give inspirational messages that primarily encourage their audiences or try to make sense of life's everyday problems as opposed to controversial doctrines.

Yeah I only read about theology and doctrin on forums. What was preached in church about the Trinity was: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Three Persons and still One. I don't understand anything about it, but I just believe it. And one guy who gave a sort of evening Bible school said God is like water vapour and ice and I wanted to joke modalism again! from Lutheran satire, but I held myself in. Only reformed and such study theology. In evangelical churches you get some Bible school.

 

[prism]

Don't these NAR preachers say they're osas too? Oh yeah I steal money from the widows, but God wants me to have money and I'm once saved always saved.

I don't know enough to say they are for or against OSAS. My brush with charsmatics is they lean towards Holiness Movement/Perfectionism and thus one can 'lose their salvation'. (not all believe this)
Much of the problem stems from the fact that it was not their salvation in the first place but rather salvation is of the Lord from first to last.
Psalm 3:8 ESV
Salvation belongs to the LORD; your blessing be on your people! Selah

Too many and too big of egos running around the Christian landscape.

 

[brightfame52]

Justified by His Death !

All for whom Christ died, are by that fact alone, Justified before God, and because of it ; and so is the meaning of these most blessed words Rom 8:32-34

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The obvious point here is that the non charges on God's Elect is solely based upon the Fact that Christ died, that He was delivered up and this constituted the phrase " It is God that Justifieth "

Now, if God delivered Christ up to die for us as per Vs 32, then we are delivered and Justified; and Christ having been delivered up for our offences as Per Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Then who shall lay anything to our Charge ? The implication is that God certainly doesn't ! For it is God that Justifieth ! The things the Apostle stated in Vs 32 of Rom 8 is what Gods Justifying is based upon in Vs 33 and then its clearly stated in the top of Vs 34 " It is Christ that died"

And then it is the Resurrection that gives evidential proof of the same Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

In other words, if God did not raise up Christ from the dead after He was delivered up for our sins, then we would have been condemned ! However, because He did raise up Christ after He died for the sins of those He died for, it means that those ones are Justified before Him; For that is what the resurrection signifies and proclaims ! The Justification of those He died in behalf of, and so He makes Intercession for them whom His Death Justified Rom 8:34

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again [For our Justifcation], who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Jesus Christ died in order that God might Justify us, He was made a curse for us by dying Gal 3:13 and now God in Divine Justice acquits us , from the curse of the Law, which is Eternal Damnation Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[prism]

All for whom Christ died, are by that fact alone, Justified before God,

Or would you say, 'all those who are justified, by that fact alone, are the ones Chtist died for?
I would.

 

[brightfame52]

Or would you say, 'all those who are justified, by that fact alone, are the ones Chtist died for?
I would.

Hi, Im saying it like this:

All for whom Christ died, are by that fact alone, Justified before God,

 

[prism]

Hi, Im saying it like this:

All for whom Christ died, are by that fact alone, Justified before God,

How would you know who Christ died for, until faith has been manifested?

 

[prism]

In rom 4:5 Paul wants us to believe in someone who "justifies the ungodly", i was just wondering who that is, exactly?

Romans 4:5-8 NASB95
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, [6] just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: [7] "Blessed ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. [8] "Blessed IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT take INTO ACCOUNT."

It is God who justifies the ungodly (in this case referring to David), but 'godly' or ungodly, God justifies those who have come to 'the end of themselves' and embrace the provision of Life and Forgiveness found in Jesus Christ.

 

[brightfame52]

Justifieth the ungodly while ungodly !

Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

All those whom Christ died for are not only reconciled to God " by His Death alone" while they are enemies/ungodly Per Rom 5:10, but also as informed by this present text Rom 4:5, they are being justified while in a state of ungodliness ! We know that they are being Justified while being ungodly because in the original Justifying is in the present tense and ungodly has the definite article before it, denoting that He is justifying those who are the ungodly. That word ungodly is asebés:

impious, ungodly, wicked,
lack of reverence ("without due respect"), i.e. failing to honor what is sacred

destitute of reverential awe toward God, contemning God, impious: Romans 4:5; Romans 5:6;

These words define what the justified ones are by nature in themselves while they are being Justified by God !

So basically, what we have here, those Christ died for are in a state of free Justification before God, while they are in a ungodly state in themselves by nature. In themselves ungodly, before God because of Christ Justified. The word justifieth is the greek word Dikaioo:

render righteous or such he ought to be
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

It also is translated being freed as in Acts 13:39

and by him every one that believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.

So while being ungodly in themselves, they are freed from being pronounced ungodly by the Judgment of God, and instead Righteous are they !

Now they are not just freed from this Judgment of being ungodly before God just for the sake of it, but because while being ungodly, they have Christ's Righteousness imputed to them, for Righteousness is imputed them without works Rom 4:6

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Without works, works being :

/érgon ("work") is a deed (action) that carries out (completes) an inner desire (intension, purpose).

So its imputed without any action of theirs, any desire of theirs, because they are in a state of ungodliness !

You see, God is Just in Justifying the elect while in a state of ungodliness, corruption and sin, for the sake of Christ's Righteousness He hath made unto them 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

This is a truth that false religionists will not be able to receive, for its foolishness to them ! 9

 

[brightfame52]

How would you know who Christ died for, until faith has been manifested?

You dont know until they believe, however they were Justified before they believed, believing doesnt Justify them before God, but evidences they have been Justified before God by the Blood and Righteousness of Christ. You understand ?

 

[prism]

@prism said, "How would you know who Christ died for, until faith has been manifested?"

You dont know until they believe, ...

Thx, I'll run with that.
I understand people are justified in God's sight before they believe, but I wanted something more tangible.

 

[brightfame52]

@prism said, "How would you know who Christ died for, until faith has been manifested?"

Thx, I'll run with that.
I understand people are justified in God's sight before they believe, but I wanted something more tangible.

So you understand that. So why are people Justified in Gods sight before they believe ?

 

[Albion]

So you understand that. So why are people Justified in Gods sight before they believe ?

Not this again.

 

[prism]

So you understand that. So why are people Justified in Gods sight before they believe ?

Because God knows the beginning from the end and He knows who He has elected (chosen) before time... but man does not know who.

 

[prism]

Not this again.

Is someone compelling you? You're free not to listen.

 

[brightfame52]

Because God knows the beginning from the end and He knows who He has elected (chosen) before time... but man does not know who.

To me thats not a reason though that is True. My answer is because Christ died for them. Do you believe people Christ died for are on that basis alone Justified before God, even before they believe ? Yes or No. Thanks

 

[prism]

To me thats not a reason though that is True. My answer is because Christ died for them. Do you believe people Christ died for are on that basis alone Justified before God, even before they believe ? Yes or No. Thanks

No.But i believe those who Christ died for will come to faith (in time) and THEN be justified through that faith alone.

 

[brightfame52]

What Rom 4:5 Teaches !

Rom 4:5 is one of the many scriptures that teach the Gospel doctrine of Justification before God prior to faith or believing Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

In this scripture its carefully indicated that the object of the believers Faith is God who Justifieth the ungodly or is justifying [present tense] the ungodly, now if being ungodly when Justifying them, then they were unbelieving; and yet He is Justifying them as such ! Because He that Justifies the ungodly justifies the unbeliever , the enemy, He is justifying them before their act of Faith or obedience to the Faith, which Faith evidences their Justification already in Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

No.But i believe those who Christ died for will come to faith (in time) and THEN be justified through that faith alone.

Okay, then we dont believe the same, I see you as believing in justification before God according to your act of believing, and not by the mere fact that Christ died for a person. You believe in Justification by Faith alone, an act of yours, I believe in Justification by Christ alone, and Faith persuaded me of that fact. So I have to say you believe in Justification by your works.

 

[Messy]

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.