Who is "him that justifieth the ungodly"?

[Messy]

Gal 5:22

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Dutch and other translations say faithfulness instead of faith.
Faith is not a fruit, that takes time to produce, but a gift.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


Oh apparently as a form of fruit, faith may be understood in two distinct but related ways: as trust and as trustworthiness.

Faith as a Fruit – Derek Prince

Spiritual fruit differs from spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts can be received by a single event. Fruit must be cultivated and requires time, skill, and labor. Read more…

www.hopefaithprayer.com

 

[Albion]

Dutch and other translations say faithfulness instead of faith.
Faith is not a fruit, that takes time to produce, but a gift.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

It was asked, on another thread, what Faith means; and I think we've noticed that the poster you are replying to here and now has used that word merely to refer to being confident about something or other.

That's not what Faith in the Scriptural sense is all about. If that were what the term conveys, then it would help explain why it is that he has insisted to us that Faith is nothing but a "by-product" of Justification.

It's good that you took the issue ''head on'' in your response here, Messy.

 

[brightfame52]

Dutch and other translations say faithfulness instead of faith.
Faith is not a fruit, that takes time to produce, but a gift.
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


Oh apparently as a form of fruit, faith may be understood in two distinct but related ways: as trust and as trustworthiness.

Faith as a Fruit – Derek Prince

Spiritual fruit differs from spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts can be received by a single event. Fruit must be cultivated and requires time, skill, and labor. Read more…

www.hopefaithprayer.com

Faith and Faithfulness uses the same greek word, faithfulness is the fruit of the Spirit as well as Faith

Faith is not a fruit, that takes time to produce, but a gift

Yes Faith is a fruit, you deny the scripture Gal 5:22 and its a Gift because its provided by the Spirit which is a Gift.

 

[Albion]

-

 

[prism]

Faith as a Fruit – Derek Prince

Spiritual fruit differs from spiritual gifts. Spiritual gifts can be received by a single event. Fruit must be cultivated and requires time, skill, and labor. Read more…

www.hopefaithprayer.com

As an aside, Derek Prince is one person I certainly avoid. Him, Don Basham, and a few others headed up the Shepherding movement back in the 1970s. A heavy handed group of control freaks telling the Body of Christ, what to do, when and where to do it. I was attending a Charismatic Church at the time who was heavily into their 'teachings'.

 

[Messy]

As an aside, Derek Prince is one person I certainly avoid. Him, Don Basham, and a few others headed up the Shepherding movement back in the 1970s. A heavy handed group of control freaks telling the Body of Christ, what to do, when and where to do it. I was attending a Charismatic Church at the time who was heavily into their 'teachings'.

I heard about that, but I thought he repented from it.

The Legacy of Derek Prince | The Wartburg Watch 2024

It wasn’t until 1978 that Prince’s “shepherds” finally gave him permission to marry Ruth. Some time after that Derek Prince left the group and repented in public for his involvement in the Shepherding Movement.

His first wife said it was a cult and they first wouldn't let him marry his 2nd wife.

 

[prism]

I heard about that, but I thought he repented from it.

The Legacy of Derek Prince | The Wartburg Watch 2024

It wasn’t until 1978 that Prince’s “shepherds” finally gave him permission to marry Ruth. Some time after that Derek Prince left the group and repented in public for his involvement in the Shepherding Movement.

His first wife said it was a cult and they first wouldn't let him marry his 2nd wife.

Even if he did repent, it should say something about his discerning ability.

 

[Messy]

Even if he did repent, it should say something about his discerning ability.

It amazes me anyway how little discernment there is in the charismatic church. Not that I should say something. I walked away with Todd Bentley. I used to go to a charismatic church in Holland that gave conferences and one guy they invited was great, yet wrong, cause he prophesied revival for that year and when it didn't happen, nah he meant personal revival. Sure. And the pastor was good, but had no discernment. He invited everyone. They're all friends. Bill Johnson, come join the club. Derek Prince at least said that Toronto was mixture. I think he learned to discern better. He should simply have listened to his wife though.

 

[Messy]

Regeneration before faith is just calvinism. Calvin let Servettus be killed. Who hates his brother is not in the Light. If he never repented from that, he's not even elected himself.

Why did John Calvin have Michael Servetus burned at the stake for heresy?

Answer (1 of 4): The Murder of Michael Servetus Michael Servetus was a Christian living in the 1500's who incurred the wrath of John Calvin and was murdered by him and his cronies for illegitimate reasons. He was accused of heresy and railroaded through a mock trial and put to death being burned...

www.quora.com

John 16
yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do [a]to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

He created God in his own image. He didn't mind ppl getting killed, so he made God the author of evil, who wanted Adam to sin, gave him no choice, creates wicked people and elects unrepentant hardened sinning against the Spirit people, who are totally not able to accept the Word, cause they hardened their own heart.

The Extreme Dangers of Calvinism – Evangelist Glenn Stevenson :

I want to summarize the TULIP for you. First of all there is T, which is Total Depravity. Most of us would say we believe in total depravity, Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. When the Calvinist says he believes in total depravity, he believes in far more than what I have just stated. He means he believes in Total Inability. That necessitates that regeneration must precede faith.

Total inability to receive the Word is what the seed at the way side has, the hard ground, someone who has hardened their heart and seared their conscience themselves by choosing to sin and ignoring their conscience.

 

[brightfame52]

The Justifier of him that believth on Jesus !


Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

That He might be Just and the Justifier of him which is believing on Jesus !

Now one of the meanings of this verse is that all who come to be believers in Jesus, its because God's Law and Justice has been satisfied for them by Jesus, that one who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21; and so they become believers because what Christ did for them is made known to them by the Spirit, for the Spirit takes what is Christ's accomplishment for them, and shows it to them Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[The Church]

Since Christ has died for them, and satisfied God's Law and Justice, paid their sin debt in full, they are given the right and privilege of believing on Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And of course those who do not believe on Jesus for Salvation, its simply because they were not of His Sheep which He died for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Non sheep do not have that privilege given to them Matt 13:11

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Once again, those for whom Christ died, He for them only satisfied God's Law and Justice in His Sufferings and Death , which all the wrath due to their sins, and also fulfilling its Righteousness, so Faith is given to them through the Righteousness of God and their Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

All who come to believe on Jesus was because they were Justified before God by His Death and Imputed Righteousness ! 9

 

[Messy]

The Justifier of him that believth on Jesus !


Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

That He might be Just and the Justifier of him which is believing on Jesus !

Now one of the meanings of this verse is that all who come to be believers in Jesus, its because God's Law and Justice has been satisfied for them by Jesus, that one who came to save His People from their sins Matt 1:21; and so they become believers because what Christ did for them is made known to them by the Spirit, for the Spirit takes what is Christ's accomplishment for them, and shows it to them Jn 16:14

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.[The Church]

Since Christ has died for them, and satisfied God's Law and Justice, paid their sin debt in full, they are given the right and privilege of believing on Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

And of course those who do not believe on Jesus for Salvation, its simply because they were not of His Sheep which He died for Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Non sheep do not have that privilege given to them Matt 13:11

11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Once again, those for whom Christ died, He for them only satisfied God's Law and Justice in His Sufferings and Death , which all the wrath due to their sins, and also fulfilling its Righteousness, so Faith is given to them through the Righteousness of God and their Saviour Jesus Christ 2 Pet 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

All who come to believe on Jesus was because they were Justified before God by His Death and Imputed Righteousness ! 9

What about the Old Testament saints? What about Adam and Eve? They talked with God. They didn't leave Him after they sinned. They taught their sons to listen to God. Only because Jesus would die and rise later? It hadn't even happened yet. The O.T. saints couldn't get a new spirit and die with Christ. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Jesus died and rose, to also die and rise with Him and go to heaven. Only Moses and Elijah and Enoch went to heaven.

 

[brightfame52]

What about the Old Testament saints? What about Adam and Eve? They talked with God. They didn't leave Him after they sinned. They taught their sons to listen to God. Only because Jesus would die and rise later? It hadn't even happened yet. The O.T. saints couldn't get a new spirit and die with Christ. They had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Jesus died and rose, to also die and rise with Him and go to heaven. Only Moses and Elijah and Enoch went to heaven.

Old Testament saints were Justified by Christ and were given Faith in His Blood. Old Test Saints looked by Faith towards Jesus Christ, New Test Saints look back at the Cross.

Isaiah was a Old Testament Saint who saw the Death and Resurrection of Christ for sins before it occured Isa 53:5-12

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[prism]

It amazes me anyway how little discernment there is in the charismatic church. Not that I should say something. I walked away with Todd Bentley. I used to go to a charismatic church in Holland that gave conferences and one guy they invited was great, yet wrong, cause he prophesied revival for that year and when it didn't happen, nah he meant personal revival. Sure. And the pastor was good, but had no discernment. He invited everyone. They're all friends. Bill Johnson, come join the club. Derek Prince at least said that Toronto was mixture. I think he learned to discern better. He should simply have listened to his wife though.

Yup, the NAR movement is a den of vipers and makes Derek Prince look like a Garter snake in comparison.

 

[prism]

Regeneration before faith is just calvinism. Calvin let Servettus be killed. Who hates his brother is not in the Light. If he never repented from that, he's not even elected himself.

Why did John Calvin have Michael Servetus burned at the stake for heresy?

Answer (1 of 4): The Murder of Michael Servetus Michael Servetus was a Christian living in the 1500's who incurred the wrath of John Calvin and was murdered by him and his cronies for illegitimate reasons. He was accused of heresy and railroaded through a mock trial and put to death being burned...

www.quora.com

John 16
yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. 3 And these things they will do [a]to you because they have not known the Father nor Me.

Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

He created God in his own image. He didn't mind ppl getting killed, so he made God the author of evil, who wanted Adam to sin, gave him no choice, creates wicked people and elects unrepentant hardened sinning against the Spirit people, who are totally not able to accept the Word, cause they hardened their own heart.

The Extreme Dangers of Calvinism – Evangelist Glenn Stevenson :

I want to summarize the TULIP for you. First of all there is T, which is Total Depravity. Most of us would say we believe in total depravity, Jeremiah 17:9: The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Rom. 3:10-12: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. When the Calvinist says he believes in total depravity, he believes in far more than what I have just stated. He means he believes in Total Inability. That necessitates that regeneration must precede faith.

Total inability to receive the Word is what the seed at the way side has, the hard ground, someone who has hardened their heart and seared their conscience themselves by choosing to sin and ignoring their conscience.

That would be 'guilt by association'. We are Protestants, Protestants have killed Catholics. So by that logic, we ought to go back to Rome.

 

[Messy]

That would be 'guilt by association'. We are Protestants, Protestants have killed Catholics. So by that logic, we ought to go back to Rome.

Catholics killed protestants too. I was reading a bit about it yesterday. My goodness. What a horrible mess. You can't just throw everything they said away, but my country is calvinistic from origin and I didn't know he was that bad. Corrie ten Boom helped Dutch ppl who were on their death bed, christians, who were afraid they weren't elected. All his fault. I see election in the Bible, but I want nothing to do with Calvin. He said that God took away his humanity, empathy, because he had to have zeal and kill the heretics. Eeww. A guy warned him afterwards and he falsely accused him. I don't know why so many ppl even care about what he had to say about God. You can better even just listen to some unknown small kid, cause He reveals it to small kids.

 

[prism]

I see election in the Bible, but I want nothing to do with Calvin. He said that God took away his humanity, empathy, because he had to have zeal and kill the heretics. Eeww.

Where did Calvin say that "God took away his humanity"? I would love to read that in context. In a sense God took away our (broken) humanity and nailed it to the Cross.
What do you do with many 'Calvinists' who were driven to poverty in their building and support of orphanages and hospitals, out of love and service for their Lord, or those who were avid Abolitionists during the Civil War?
Instead of the stern, austere individual this permissive culture likes caricaturing him as, I have heard he was kind of quiet and shy.
But in any case, it's not what quirks a founder has, but is his teaching true/biblical? I don't agree with everything Calvin taught but neither will I throw out the baby with the bath water, or take part in a personal assassination, as many of the Jewish leaders did to Jesus.

 

[Messy]

Where did Calvin say that "God took away his humanity"? I would love to read that in context. In a sense God took away our (broken) humanity and nailed it to the Cross.
What do you do with many 'Calvinists' who were driven to poverty in their building and support of orphanages and hospitals, out of love and service for their Lord, or those who were avid Abolitionists during the Civil War?
Instead of the stern, austere individual this permissive culture likes caricaturing him as, I have heard he was kind of quiet and shy.
But in any case, it's not what quirks a founder has, but is his teaching true/biblical? I don't agree with everything Calvin taught but neither will I throw out the baby with the bath water, or take part in a personal assassination, as many of the Jewish leaders did to Jesus.

He assasinated Servettus and that other guy who tried to warn him. I hoped he would just have said that he was sorry or wrong, but no. I also read that he was friendly and shy when he was young, but later he was a tyrant.

There's nothing wrong with calvinists, but his teachings are used by everyone and it's dangerous. Also in the evangelical church. I have nothing against calvinists or reformed. My mother's family was all reformed. The reformed in Holland helped the Jews. But I think everyone should watch out and see if a teaching is really Biblical or just something he made up.

Calvin, unrepentant of his murder of Servetus, threatened anyone thinking to criticize his brand of “justice” against “heretics and blasphemers” with the same “guiltiness” and punishment, calling this the edict of God. He credited God, rather than his hardened conscience, for making him into an unfeeling monster:

Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt. This is not laid down on human authority; it is God who speaks and prescribes a perpetual rule for his Church. It is not in vain that he banishes all those human affections which soften our hearts; that he commands paternal love and all the benevolent feelings between brothers, relations, and friends to cease; in a word, that he almost deprives men of their nature in order that nothing may hinder their holy zeal. Why is so implacable a severity exacted but that we may know that God is defrauded of his honor, unless the piety that is due to him be preferred to all human duties, and that when his glory is to be asserted, humanity must be almost obliterated from our memories?”

False Teacher - The Fruit of Cain Multiplied: The Murderer John Calvin

False Teacher Exposed on The Path of Truth - John Calvin

www.thepathoftruth.com

Calvin, justifying the murder of Servetus, said it was his mission to save Christianity – the gangrenous limb had to be amputated. To which Castellion replied, “There is nowhere in the gospels, nor yet in any moral treatise ever given to the world, the demand for such intolerance. Will you dare, in the last resort, to say that Jesus himself taught you to burn your fellow men?

“Who burns a man does not defend a doctrine, but only burns a man.”

​

Set on destroying him, Calvin wrote a tract, “Calumnies of a Rapscallion,” reviling Castellion as a thief, rascal, and blasphemer. The diatribe ends with, “May God destroy you, Satan!”

 

[prism]

There's nothing wrong with calvinists, but his teachings are used by everyone and it's dangerous. Also in the evangelical church. I have nothing against calvinists or reformed. My mother's family was all reformed. The reformed in Holland helped the Jews. But I think everyone should watch out and see if a teaching is really Biblical or just something he made up.

Are you against evolutionists as much as you are against Calvinistic teachings? IMHO, it has wrecked far more lives, blinded many more people, and has been the instrumental cause of many entering the portals of hell.

 

[Messy]

Are you against evolutionists as much as you are against Calvinistic teachings? IMHO, it has wrecked far more lives, blinded many more people, and has been the instrumental cause of many entering the portals of hell.

Yes that's also evil. Maybe all isms are bad. But for example once saved always saved. Charismatics, evangelicals, loads of ppl believe that. And yes I agree with you about eternal security for ppl who walk well, like the Phillippians, but this doctrin can kill people, when the wrong ones think they're safe. Oh yeah I killed someone yesterday and tomorrow I will kill my other neighbour, but they're heretics and I'm once saved always saved. I hope Calvin repented, but he may not even have been saved. Don't these NAR preachers say they're osas too? Oh yeah I steal money from the widows, but God wants me to have money and I'm once saved always saved.

Steve Hill, spiritual avalanche

 

[Messy]

You say stay away from Derek Prince. I'm like he has great teachings. I'm like stay away from Calvin. You're like he has good preachings. You may be right. Jesus even said they should listen to the pharisees, but not do as they do and watch the leaven.

A church I used to go to, that guy said we should read pillars from the christian faith from Derek Prince for his Bible school. But his pastor who started the biggest pentecostal church here after T. L. Osborn came here, would scoff him when he started his own church. He was furious. And the same thing happened when my ex started his own church. Now that guy cursed him. Maybe that was influence from the shepherd movement or just their ego.